100 replies to this topic

[Beatle1]

It's really scary how MWO creeps closer and closer to Being Call of Duty/ Counter Strike with mechs. I mean for christ sake, TTK in Havken is much longer than in MWO and that game was deisghned as a CoD with mechs.

[ROSS-128]

LordKnightFandragon, on 22 February 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

Yeah, that is why I find this game hard to even want to play.....were in mechs, and the TTK is barely longer then Planetside 2.....and it has the stun lock and screen shake that made getting shot in Planetside = death....first one to shoot wins, cuz the other guy pretty much can do nothing.

MW4, MC2, MCG and older MW games are just more fun in every way......and they dont even stick to lore......meh....

I don't even know where to begin with how wrong this post is. The only things in Planetside 2 whose TTKs would be comparable to any mech in this game are Liberators, Galaxies, and actual tanks. Considering most weapons have a 2-5 second cooldown in this game and absolutely nothing can kill a mech in one shot unless it's a Light or a rear/head hit, you'll always have plenty of time unless you get focused by an entire enemy team. Especially if you torso twist.

I have a Banshee with a pin-point 70 damage alpha strike. I sometimes rip side torsos off in one shot, but rarely CTs because it's not always easy to keep the lasers on target.

I never get "stun locked", I haven't even seen anything capable of disabling my mech unless I overheat myself. Which I don't do ever since Override Shutdown became toggle-able (yeah I live dangerously, I just prefer taking a little damage under otherwise-intact armor over shutting down in front of an enemy). Granted, I paid for that once when the RNG decided to dump the entire first tick of overheat damage straight to my head, but generally it's a risk that pays off.

Screen shake is rarely an issue for me. Generally the only things that cause enough screen shake to matter are Clan UACs and hex-AC2 Crabs/Jagers.

[KraftySOT]

E Rommel, on 22 February 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

I have a Banshee with a pin-point 70 damage alpha strike. I sometimes rip side torsos off in one shot, but rarely CTs because it's not always easy to keep the lasers on target.

But you have to understand that for many of us, holding it on the CT isnt a problem. Not just holding it on the CT, but holding it on the tiny few pixel size spot on the side of an Atlas's head, or a Banshee or Shadowhawks shoulder, and hit the REAR CT with our whole alphas.

Now when you have a Cicada with a 40 point alpha and can do that, youre running around killing everything with an XL in one or two wubstrikes.

Im not saying EVERYONE can do this, but a large enough portion that every single match, youll have a few people doing this in meta builds wrecking the space poor masses.

In CW, you have 12 man premade teams who can do this.

[Aresye]

LordKnightFandragon, on 22 February 2015 - 05:04 AM, said:

It takes more time ot kill the first Jenner in Mechwarrior 2's Wolf campaign then it does to kill a Dire Whale here.

You mean the Jenner that dies in a split second from one salvo of LRM-20s with the default Mad Dog?

[LordKnightFandragon]

E Rommel, on 22 February 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

I don't even know where to begin with how wrong this post is. The only things in Planetside 2 whose TTKs would be comparable to any mech in this game are Liberators, Galaxies, and actual tanks. Considering most weapons have a 2-5 second cooldown in this game and absolutely nothing can kill a mech in one shot unless it's a Light or a rear/head hit, you'll always have plenty of time unless you get focused by an entire enemy team. Especially if you torso twist.

I have a Banshee with a pin-point 70 damage alpha strike. I sometimes rip side torsos off in one shot, but rarely CTs because it's not always easy to keep the lasers on target.

I never get "stun locked", I haven't even seen anything capable of disabling my mech unless I overheat myself. Which I don't do ever since Override Shutdown became toggle-able (yeah I live dangerously, I just prefer taking a little damage under otherwise-intact armor over shutting down in front of an enemy). Granted, I paid for that once when the RNG decided to dump the entire first tick of overheat damage straight to my head, but generally it's a risk that pays off.

Screen shake is rarely an issue for me. Generally the only things that cause enough screen shake to matter are Clan UACs and hex-AC2 Crabs/Jagers.

Well, when TTK should be quite a bit longer, it might as well be Planetside 2 TTks....

I would love more MW4 TTK, and less MWO TTK. MW4, I get they had like 4x armor values and reduced damage and long cooldowns, but it worked to make stuff rather tanky and feel like you were in a mech, and not a big plastic can of death.

Aresye, on 22 February 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

You mean the Jenner that dies in a split second from one salvo of LRM-20s with the default Mad Dog?

Yes, that one.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 22 February 2015 - 07:21 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Maccasimus, on 21 February 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

TTK seems to be a hot topic at the moment. So i'm gonna go against the apparent trend and say TTK is actually too long.

It should not take a tonne of ammo from anything bigger than a machine gun to kill a mech.

A light mech should die from an ac20 shot. Full stop.

A single PPC should be scary. And I don't mean when boated. I mean singular.

I should not be able to tank damage, even in an Atlas, from half the enemy team for even a few seconds let alone almost 30.

Now I realise that if all these things were in the game at the moment the game would suck. TTK needs to be as long as it is while the game is what it is.

But in no way does TTK need to be longer.

Heat Cap is bloated.
Heat Dissipation is broken to fix it (which didn't fix it, just made SHS useless and DHS required)
Armor is inflated to compensate high heat based weapon damage.
Ammo is inflated to compensate for too much armor and 12v12

Core Mechanics are broken, require fixing before balance can be taken seriously...

[ROSS-128]

LordKnightFandragon, on 22 February 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

Well, when TTK should be quite a bit longer, it might as well be Planetside 2 TTks....

Did you read the post at all? It takes forever to kill Liberators and Galaxies, a single person doesn't even carry enough ammo to do so. Takes plenty of time to kill MBTs too, outside of C4 fairies. MWO's TTK is plenty long as long as you keep moving and twist your torso.

Heck, there are lots of times where I let the enemy shoot my rear armor, because I know even from the rear I can take several hits.

It's blatantly obvious that you have a severe case of Learn to Play.

Edit: I also don't remember MW4's TTKs being particularly long, especially not with a 3xUAC20 Dire Wolf. Stuff died pretty fast if you knew how to min-max for damage.

Edited by E Rommel, 22 February 2015 - 07:37 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

It should not take a tonne of ammo from anything bigger than a machine gun to kill a mech.

I disagree. Outside of CW, Players only control ONE mech. And there are no respawns. Regular games would be extremely boring if you died that quickly. You would spend more time searching for matches than actually playing.

TTK is too fast if anything. Its been proven numerous times that mechs die much faster in MWO than tabletop due to the fact you can perfectly aim and converge weapons rather than having to roll random hit locations. Even with MWO's doubled armor, base damage is 2-3 times higher in MWO compared to tabletop. After including rate of fire quirks/modules the damage is much higher than 2-3 times.

Suffice to say MWO does not accurately reflect the tankiness of mechs like the Atlas.

Quote

A light mech should die from an ac20 shot. Full stop.

No. In tabletop hitting a light with an AC20 is RANDOM. So AC20s can get away with one shot kills in tabletop because of that randomness. But in MWO its NOT random. Someone with good aim can always hit a light. You simply cannot compare random hit chance in tabletop to perfect aiming in MWO. Lights need to be able to absorb more damage compared to tabletop specifically because they get hit more often due to players having good aim.

Edited by Khobai, 22 February 2015 - 08:00 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

E Rommel, on 22 February 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

Did you read the post at all? It takes forever to kill Liberators and Galaxies, a single person doesn't even carry enough ammo to do so. Takes plenty of time to kill MBTs too, outside of C4 fairies. MWO's TTK is plenty long as long as you keep moving and twist your torso.

Heck, there are lots of times where I let the enemy shoot my rear armor, because I know even from the rear I can take several hits.

It's blatantly obvious that you have a severe case of Learn to Play.

Oh lol, I know how long it takes ot kill libs and gals.....I know how long it takes to kill tanks, and in many cases, the vehicles are actually tougher then MWO Assault mechs. A Vanguards ass takes 5-6 dumbfires, its front takes 7-8. Galaxies take something along the lines of 220 Burster rounds, the Lib takes like 120-150, the ESF takes like 60.

But in comparison to what other Mechwarrior games have for TTK and what MWO is, the TTK is more like Planetside 2 Heavy assault TTK.....kinda slowish at times, but still pretty damn fast in comparison to older MW games. You cant at all Tank in a Heavy or assault mech like you can even in a Lightning in PS2, and those only take like 3 shots from a dumbfire, 2 from a TITAN-AP, 2 in the ass from said TITAN gun.

And yeah, I twist my ass off, I have had my Warhawk red and orange internals in every single section of the mech, but its derpy that unless we twist like mad, the mech gets melted like its a Medic in PS2 taking a headshot from a Parallax.

What really needs to be toned down in MWo is our output capacity. Banshees can output 100+ points of damage in 1 salvo? and then what? do it again upon the 3.25s cooldown ending? and what happens if he goes to 150 of his 100 point heat scale? oh, nothing. He waits and powers back on and repeats. even a Firestarter can output like 6 Small lasers all at once, and near endlessly. Heat needs to be tweaked until the sustainable output is like 20-30, not 80-100.....then you twist to spread out 20-30 damage and are still in shape enough to return some fire, but when 80-100 damage hits you over the course of 1 second, you can twist, but its really not going to save you much.

If it was 20-30 spreading across 4-6 sections of your mech, that would be alot more manageable. And I dont need to play 7800 games to realize that.....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 22 February 2015 - 07:45 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

You cant at all Tank in a Heavy or assault mech

Exactly. In tabletop it takes 250-300 damage to take out an Atlas unless you get a lucky gauss shot to its cockpit. In MWO an atlas is dead in like 175-200 damage, and thats with MWO's double armor too!

In tabletop the random hit locations mean that 50% of the damage is assigned to arms and legs. So an Atlas' arms and legs soak up tremendous damage. But in MWO the Atlas' legs dont soak anything. And the Atlas's arms only soak damage if you torso twist, but otherwise soak nothing.

The Atlas' torso sections are woefully underarmored for their size. Even quirking the Atlas with more armor didnt fix it, its still terrible compared to the King Crab with its smaller hit locations and better hardpoints.

Edited by Khobai, 22 February 2015 - 08:10 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

1. Lower Heat Cap to prevent massive Alpha Strikes
2. Re-balance DHS to 2.0, make SHS give a small heat cap boost but still at 1.0 dissipation.
3. Balance Armor/Ammo accordingly

Result - Mechs will fire fewer weapons at 1 time, but with DHS be able to fire more consistently, while SHS will allow better 'bursts' but at the cost of lower dissipation. It will be a trade off system that promotes skill and teamwork over PPFLD Alpha Spam and from the Battletech books I've read, it fits a lot better than what our players do now.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 22 February 2015 - 08:08 PM.

[ROSS-128]

LordKnightFandragon, on 22 February 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

Oh lol, I know how long it takes ot kill libs and gals.....I know how long it takes to kill tanks, and in many cases, the vehicles are actually tougher then MWO Assault mechs. A Vanguards ass takes 5-6 dumbfires, its front takes 7-8. Galaxies take something along the lines of 220 Burster rounds, the Lib takes like 120-150, the ESF takes like 60.

But in comparison to what other Mechwarrior games have for TTK and what MWO is, the TTK is more like Planetside 2 Heavy assault TTK.....kinda slowish at times, but still pretty damn fast in comparison to older MW games. You cant at all Tank in a Heavy or assault mech like you can even in a Lightning in PS2, and those only take like 3 shots from a dumbfire, 2 from a TITAN-AP, 2 in the ass from said TITAN gun.

And yeah, I twist my ass off, I have had my Warhawk red and orange internals in every single section of the mech, but its derpy that unless we twist like mad, the mech gets melted like its a Medic in PS2 taking a headshot from a Parallax.

What really needs to be toned down in MWo is our output capacity. Banshees can output 100+ points of damage in 1 salvo? and then what? do it again upon the 3.25s cooldown ending? and what happens if he goes to 150 of his 100 point heat scale? oh, nothing. He waits and powers back on and repeats. even a Firestarter can output like 6 Small lasers all at once, and near endlessly. Heat needs to be tweaked until the sustainable output is like 20-30, not 80-100.....then you twist to spread out 20-30 damage and are still in shape enough to return some fire, but when 80-100 damage hits you over the course of 1 second, you can twist, but its really not going to save you much.

If it was 20-30 spreading across 4-6 sections of your mech, that would be alot more manageable. And I dont need to play 7800 games to realize that.....

See, now I can tell you're lying because if you had all three torso sections red on a Warhawk, you would have taken nearly 300 damage. And it takes a long time to deal 300 damage in ANY mech.

There is no practical Banshee build that can achieve 100 damage in one alpha. The 3S might theoretically be capable of reaching it if you stick an AC20 in there, put an LPL on all 7 of the slots that can hold it, and stick an SRM6 in the shoulder, but it would run horribly hot and you'd have to put a miniscule engine in there to accomodate the 60+ tons of weapons you just put in that thing.

My 70 damage build even borders on being impractical, it runs at 25% heat efficiency. Its sustainable DPS is about 4. This means if I'm firing at a heat neutral rate (or if, say, I have the misfortune of running into one while hot), it will take me an entire 40 seconds to burn through the CT of an Atlas. 40 seconds is a long time. Its peak DPS before overheating is between 16 and 18, which is a lot scarier, but nowhere near a Heavy Assault's TTK of 0.25-0.33 seconds.

I've got a Banshee with high sustained DPS of course, but it only has a 43 point alpha. It's a 3xAC5 Banshee that can sustain about 10-12 DPS and burst for about 16 (by mixing in lasers). It'll still take a solid 10-16 seconds to burn down an assault mech that tries to get in a staring contest with it, and it only carries enough ammo for 99 seconds of continuous fire.

Do you even realize how big the difference between 10-40 and 0.25-0.33 is? You're off by about two orders of magnitude.

[LordKnightFandragon]

E Rommel, on 22 February 2015 - 08:22 PM, said:

See, now I can tell you're lying because if you had all three torso sections red on a Warhawk, you would have taken nearly 300 damage. And it takes a long time to deal 300 damage in ANY mech.

You can think im lying, ive done it and more then once. Twisted like mad and taken damage absolutely everywhere. Once in CW I lasted like 2 waves, and in that battle I ended getting like 3 kills, some 700 damage before finally having my WHK die. But it was red and orange absolutely everywhere, including the cockpit being orange. I know the idea of twisting and how to do it, I just think its really ******** that the game is designed in such a way that in order to survive we have to dance around like a classroom full of "special" students high on 5 hour energy.

and players on here are always on about how they managed a 80 point alpha from a Banshee, if they are talkin out their butts or what, but its with ML and MPL and the like, but the point is, that should not be the average output, not even in a Clan mech. Heat should restrict it such that we as players really shy away from doing it. Alpha strikes should be made to be an actual last ditch effort, not the normal gameplay progression. 1st move should not be see a mech and fire all our guns into the enemy, gain all that heat and just do it again in 4 seconds.

Game should be in such a way that we pace our shots 20-30 dmg sustained for maybe 3 bursts, then we cool off for 10 seconds or so. In pretty much every other Mechwarrior game, over whelming firepower came in the form of LANCE action, not a single mech rounding a corner and firing a Lance worth of firepower in 1 go.

MauttyKoray, on 22 February 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

1. Lower Heat Cap to prevent massive Alpha Strikes
2. Re-balance DHS to 2.0, make SHS give a small heat cap boost but still at 1.0 dissipation.
3. Balance Armor/Ammo accordingly

Result - Mechs will fire fewer weapons at 1 time, but with DHS be able to fire more consistently, while SHS will allow better 'bursts' but at the cost of lower dissipation. It will be a trade off system that promotes skill and teamwork over PPFLD Alpha Spam and from the Battletech books I've read, it fits a lot better than what our players do now.

Have heat sinks dissipation be like

20DHS=40heat, so 4.0/s Cooling. 20SHS=20heat=2.0/s cooling. True double. But attach it to a 30-40 point heat scale. Yeah, 2 heat per second is slow and horrid on a 100 point heat scale, but on a smaller scale, the need for doubles isnt nearly as high. SHS you could pack in quite a few, like pack in 28SHS, giving you 2.8, vs the 20 DHS being 4.0. Closes the game a fair bit on both class of heat sinks. Gives the Doubles an advantage, but not a going away advantage.

[Lyoto Machida]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 February 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

Only after a weakness is found and exploited.

Tournament Karate/Tae Kwon Do is the same way.

You're bringing up two of the point fighting arts as an example of finishing quickly? You can't even punch to the head under the WTF Taekwondo ruleset!!! WTF rules are the ones used in the Olympics, if I recall correctly...the Olympics aren't exactly known for being the paragon of combat sports.

I'm not saying you can't finish someone using tourney style Karate or TKD but they certainly aren't the most realistic standup arts/rulesets in terms of actual fighting...

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Based on this here piece of video evidence a heavy mech under focused fire from an enemy team should last approximately 30 seconds.

https://youtu.be/WM1ot30RA_g?t=3m19s

As a side note medium mechs die from a single missile impact to the side torso. As seen at 2:33.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Dakota1000, on 23 September 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

Based on this here piece of video evidence a heavy mech under focused fire from an enemy team should last approximately 30 seconds.

https://youtu.be/WM1ot30RA_g?t=3m19s

As a side note medium mechs die from a single missile impact to the side torso. As seen at 2:33.

LOL, that Shadowcat got wacked by like a trio of Arrow IV missiles....those do a metric **** ton of damage. Basically like being hit by a Tomahawk cruise missile.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 23 September 2015 - 07:14 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yeah, I know, but also out of the trio only one impacted. I wonder how Arrow IVs would do in MWO.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Really, TTK is decent in this game if the guys arent running Dual Gauss or some cheese meta build...but no mech really feels tanky....Assaults with max armor feel like a Medium tank in WoT...

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Only time I feel tanky is when I'm setup as a brawler in an assault using both my arms to survive heavy damage from one or two enemies. The moment you get more than one or two or don't have your arm constantly towards incoming damage it gets pretty bad. I've had a few matches with my assaults where I'll just end up in the wrong spot at the wrong time though then just be dead instantly. I mean in under the duration of a medium laser I'm down. Once was in an Executioner against a Battlemaster and an Atlas under HPG, another was King Crab falling through the opening on crimson straight right infront of an entire two lances in the tunnel no one noticed.

Maybe it would be a bit better if people were as accurate in this game as they are in that video... I wonder how TTK is in tier 5 now.

Edited by Dakota1000, 23 September 2015 - 07:31 PM.

[mindwarp]

Dakota1000, on 23 September 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

Based on this here piece of video evidence a heavy mech under focused fire from an enemy team should last approximately 30 seconds.

https://youtu.be/WM1ot30RA_g?t=3m19s

As a side note medium mechs die from a single missile impact to the side torso. As seen at 2:33.

Yes, but the guys shooting at that Vulture are rotten shots. It's point blank and they're missing over half the time.