38 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Ace Selin, on 22 February 2015 - 11:34 PM, said:

No never, this will encourage new players with trial mechs playing CW.. that's the last thing we want.
Having a penalty for being in trial mechs like -10% cbills for every trial mech would be good.

If you play CW you should have a drop deck, the knowledge and the cbills to match, hence why I advocate blocking CW until you have played 50 pug/ 12man matches or similar length, for new players of the game.

C-bill penalties for Trials was one of the patently stupid things that we got rid of ages ago. Why would you stick your finger in the light socket of stupid again?

Grothlamarath, on 22 February 2015 - 11:43 PM, said:

I agree to the position of the OP and idea. However, I'd say a 25% c-bills boost over the public matches and award a few mechs bays in there. Nothing over the top but maybe 2 or 3. I also wouldn't be apposed to a achievement for completing 50 CW matches being a c-bill or even a mech bonus.

They'll get a Mechbay or two in the process of playing from normal loyalty point gains- Rank 2 is a free Mechbay that would be impossible not to get with any effort, and Rank 6 is as well.

And despite the multiple posturings of "OMG, CW IS FOR ENDGAME LEETS ONLY", the reason it's the domain of the veteran is the newbie isn't even capable of being equipped to match said veteran. It's the same bloody argument we had pre-cadet bonus in public queue: players trapped long-term into using Trials are target practice and end up frustrated and gone. CW needs less experienced players getting their feet wet and becoming regulars or veterans. Goodness knows we do it in Liao, we invest in and need all the players we can get- including getting them out into the pubbie queue in quiet hours and grinding with the same people they'll fight with (and sometimes against) in CW later. I wouldn't even mind seeing the bonus split up further when 4v4 shows up. 25-game cadet bonus for public, 25 for Scouting 4v4, 25 for 12v12 planetary assault.

Incidentally, if CW required a unit tag, I wouldn't qualify. Heck, I don't have one because that way, I don't have a unit rep attached to my faction's rep - nobody can say "Oh, he's just talking for (insert Cappie unit here)."

Edited by wanderer, 23 February 2015 - 03:26 PM.

[Ax2Grind]

First off, move this to the suggestions section.

Second, the more rewards we can dish out to new players the better. Cbill and Mech rewards are a great idea and would really encourage folks to spend some seat time in game...which is always going to be important if folks want to do well at a game like this. I really like the change of the Cadet Bonus going from 1 mech to 4 mechs purchasable.

Third, Cbill rewards for everyone need to be raised to at least Early Open Beta level. (Even I don't like the Grind! Har!)

I completely agree that creating a smoother entry into CW for newer players is the right way to go. Maybe new players should have to finish their cadet bonus, or get their bonus 4 mechs or whatever before they play CW, but no matter how it's designed, there should be a clear path for how to reach CW without having to just grind for a month or two to afford a basic set of IS mechs. I personally see no reason not to let everyone play, but a warning sign might be a good idea so that folks know the difficulty level may be much greater than in the normal PUB queue. That way expectations are not brutally dashed when new folks come face to face against a 12 man of experienced players.

Keep fighting the good fight Wanderer.

[DaFrog]

jeirhart, on 23 February 2015 - 06:21 AM, said:

Community Warfare is not the full game but it is the END game. We are not suggesting that we should punish new players or hurt their experience. We are not suggesting that we keep income low. We are not suggesting that we give them bad trial 'mechs. We are not even suggesting that we put an ELO and 2000 matches played limit on CW so they can not even try it out.

Instead we are merely suggesting that the new player should be gradually guided through the game; given time to learn and grow as a player in MWO before they are tossed into the deep end that is Community Warfare. Many of the trial 'mechs are bad and should never be used in Community Warfare even by good players. It would be very helpful if the trials were updated based on the quirks given out with the builds favored by the meta. Let the new players learn with these trial 'mechs in public queue, eventually obtaining their own purchased 'mechs. Then once they are really ready they will be free to participate in Community Warfare with the skills they have learned and the 'mechs they have mastered.

I would even propose that letting new players jump into Community Warfare immediately upon installing is NOT a good idea and would only HURT their experience in MechWarrior Online. Bringing trial 'mechs to CW combined with their low experience level will only result in roflstomps from which they will only emerge frustrated and upset, having learned nothing of the game. Meanwhile older and more experienced players on their team have to compensate for their inexperience and may grow frustrated themselves.

Public queue exists. Many players spend their time there. Some spend all their time there. Pretty much every event PGI has held has involved public queue. There is no reason why new players should not learn and grow in public queue first then transition into Community Warfare once they are ready.

CW is not the END game. Nowhere near. CW is very linear. Get to LZ, destroy landing mechs. That's it. Public is much more interesting strategically speaking, because you have to find your opponent. So no, CW is far from being the end game to anything. In a pug vs pug match, CW is a lot easier than public.

[jeirhart]

End Game refers to the content which players are working towards being able to participate in and be the best at. Outside of the competitive scene offered by third parties, Community Warfare is the aspect of the game everyone needs to works towards and has a goal outside of winning a single 12v12 drop ad-nauseam.

If you bring trial 'mechs to a CW drop and are not simply fighting another team of trial 'mechs, you will have your face stomped in for the next 30 minutes and drag down the rest of your team. Losing a drop can mean the difference in gaining/losing a planet. Public queue has no such reaching consequences.

[Vassago Rain]

jeirhart, on 23 February 2015 - 10:17 PM, said:

End Game refers to the content which players are working towards being able to participate in and be the best at. Outside of the competitive scene offered by third parties, Community Warfare is the aspect of the game everyone needs to works towards and has a goal outside of winning a single 12v12 drop ad-nauseam.

If you bring trial 'mechs to a CW drop and are not simply fighting another team of trial 'mechs, you will have your face stomped in for the next 30 minutes and drag down the rest of your team. Losing a drop can mean the difference in gaining/losing a planet. Public queue has no such reaching consequences.

It's pretty poor form of you to consider the one feature the game was supposedly built upon, and around, to be 'end-game.' We weren't supposed to have a ghetto, or pubs running around in bad builds.

In 2012, MWO was set to be all about the CW. It was the one and only game mode we were gonna have - eventually. Assault and its poor objectives, win conditions, and the original red square on the ground with a little radio transmitter box inside, was a placeholder for something much greater.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 23 February 2015 - 10:24 PM.

[jeirhart]

Vassago Rain, on 23 February 2015 - 10:24 PM, said:

It's pretty poor form of you to consider the one feature the game was supposedly built upon, and around, to be 'end-game.' We weren't supposed to have a ghetto, or pubs running around in bad builds.

In 2012, MWO was set to be all about the CW. It was the one and only game mode we were gonna have - eventually. Assault and its poor objectives, win conditions, and the original red square on the ground with a little radio transmitter box inside, was a placeholder for something much greater.

"Supposed to be" versus the current reality. If PGI continues to update and change the game (as they have so far done) then Community Warfare may yet cease to be the 'end game' content in favor of future content. Right now the CW portion of the game is end game content when compared to the other formally supported aspects of the game. Again this does not count third-party held tournaments as they are not (generally) sanctioned by PGI.

[Caustic Canid]

jeirhart, on 23 February 2015 - 10:35 PM, said:

"Supposed to be" versus the current reality. If PGI continues to update and change the game (as they have so far done) then Community Warfare may yet cease to be the 'end game' content in favor of future content. Right now the CW portion of the game is end game content when compared to the other formally supported aspects of the game. Again this does not count third-party held tournaments as they are not (generally) sanctioned by PGI.

So only hardened veterans should have access to the most recent content?

[jeirhart]

Caustic Canid, on 23 February 2015 - 11:07 PM, said:

So only hardened veterans should have access to the most recent content?

WoW, SWtoR, etc releases new end game content all the time. That is the most recent content and yet it is restricted to players who have achieved certain level in the game prior to its release.

WoT has an entire part of the game restricted to members of Clans only.

Community Warfare in MechWarrior Online actually has a lasting impact from battle to battle. It is not simply public queue.

And again, I am not saying "hardened veterans" or any such nonsense. Only suggesting that a brand new fresh player to MechWarrior Online should not be able to drop into community warfare until they at least know how to pilot a 'mech from point A to point B without overheating and blowing themselves with their first alpha.

There has been thread after thread in these forums and reddit discussing "spawn camping" and "twelve man premade stomps." This is NOT the gameplay we want new players to experience. Experiencing this gameplay will drive people away, especially new players. Let them learn the basics in public queue and then let them loose in Community Warfare once they know what they are getting into.

Give them basic training at least before you send them off to war.

[Yokaiko]

Caustic Canid, on 23 February 2015 - 11:07 PM, said:

So only hardened veterans should have access to the most recent content?

Actually yes.

Without a barrier to entry you get dabblers dropping against full 12s answering the stupid call to arm. ....and you get 8 guys n trials against an 8 man.

Try it start an account, take your Cadet bonus mech IS side and do a couple CWs. I quite literally got games with the majority in trials. So yeah, they are going to get shitstomped.

[wanderer]

Incidental note: Making a similar thread in suggestions...got locked with a link to this one.

Yokaiko, on 24 February 2015 - 12:16 AM, said:

Without a barrier to entry you get dabblers dropping against full 12s answering the stupid call to arm. ....and you get 8 guys n trials against an 8 man.

Try it start an account, take your Cadet bonus mech IS side and do a couple CWs. I quite literally got games with the majority in trials. So yeah, they are going to get shitstomped.

This, BTW is the whole reason I make the suggestion in the OP. If we're going to have supagreens, let's get those players out of the target-practice-on-legs ASAP. If we have a smooth series of carrots leading from public to 4v4 to 12v12, those utterly unequipped players will be minimized. I doubt 4v4 will take having a full lance-sized deck to do, so we can point newbies the right direction.

Play a while in public. Then do 4v4 for a bit. If you like it, you should have enough C-bills for 12v12 and some experience as well. Worst case, you don't like it, you can go play the other modes as you please and best case, you have someone with some experience and builds going into the bottom rung of 12v12 rather than an utterly unprepared, totally useless guy who hasn't figured out how to fire a Gauss Rifle yet.

[Rahul Roy]

I would like to see CW-themed trial mechs (ie a mech with ECM and speed of 97+kph, and an anti-light mech with speed of 120+ and streaks).

Also a 'trial deck' button in the CW UI that puts together the following:

ECM trial mech.
Anti-light tial mech.
A few long-range medium/heavies for the respective side (current Dragon and Cataphract on IS side, current Stormcrow/Nova on clan side).

For beginners the trial deck button would help them set up 4 'decent' mechs quickly, say even in the 1-minute countdown when match is made but hasn't started yet.

For relatively new players they can use the above to pad out their own deck (particularly for ECM or anti-light streaks).

Veteran players will still get much more benefit of putting in the time, buying their own mechs/modules/weapons and unlocking skills.

But new players will at least have better options.

[LiquidLlama]

Some of you people... I swear. Lock out new players from half the game? Just because they're going to drop with Trials into a pug with you and ruin your (already slim) chance of winning?

Please. What an absolute bucket-full.

I've got just over a week into this game, so I'm still very much a noob; 145 matches (.500), ****** K/D ratio (1:3), the Cadet Bonuses completed (among others), and only two owned 'Mechs to show for it - WITH Premium Time for the entire run. Sure I upgraded both those 'Mechs first, but that means I have to drop with two Trials in CW instead.

And you want to tell me I shouldn't be able to play the part of the game I consider to be more enjoyable (and seem to do much better in) because of that? Pffft. Do I get curb-stomped most of the time? Yeah, just ask -MS-. Has the IS side pulled out a few good wins with me on the team? Most definitely. You can't eliminate a player or group of players just because of time played or number of Trial 'Mechs in a drop deck. That's simply absurd.

I do agree, however, that there needs to be some sort of middle ground between the grind-fest that is general Matchmaking and CW. Some of the ideas posted above are pretty good, and I hope PGI takes note.

[HARDKOR]

CW is totally end game content, in as much as this game has any. I won't drop CW in mechs that aren't mastered, period, because I don't want to gimp my team. Trial mechs have no place in CW, IMHO.

[LiquidLlama]

HARDKOR, on 24 February 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

CW is totally end game content, in as much as this game has any. I won't drop CW in mechs that aren't mastered, period, because I don't want to gimp my team. Trial mechs have no place in CW, IMHO.

That's fair, and totally fine for you to do. You're also with a well-organized Unit, and I'm sure spent more time in-game than anyone who would need to use Trials to play CW.

However, holding everyone else that standard to isn't quite fair (not that I'm saying you're doing that).

[HARDKOR]

Nah, but there should be a bottom floor you have to get above before getting into CW.

[LiquidLlama]

HARDKOR, on 24 February 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

Nah, but there should be a bottom floor you have to get above before getting into CW.

That I can agree with.

Now, who sets the floor, and what is it?

[Necromantion]

I like the idea of better trial mechs for CW but i think there should be some gating process, perhaps some loosely based lore kinda thing like their "trial" is winning 30?40? Pug games? IDK

Edited by Necromantion, 24 February 2015 - 10:19 AM.

[HARDKOR]

LiquidLlama, on 24 February 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

That I can agree with.

Now, who sets the floor, and what is it?

I'd say if you have no ELO or are in bottom 20%(or whatever stat PGI see's is where the bell curve starts to level a bit) , GTFO.

[Ax2Grind]

wanderer, on 24 February 2015 - 01:38 AM, said:

Incidental note: Making a similar thread in suggestions...got locked with a link to this one.

I am going to take that as a good sign.