196 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

YCSLiesmith, on 19 March 2015 - 04:18 AM, said:

good thing the dragon 1n is a glass cannon so blocking with the center torso is not an effective strategy

You know, I am starting to see your problem...you are just not a skilled enough pilot to play effectively and see the deficiencies of clan mechs, or you do not play the clan mechs enough.

Whichever one it is, you should re-assess your position and actually play the game in something besides the lights you rush with...

[YCSLiesmith]

Actually I think that the problem here is that you are a clan wolf bad who is desperate to believe that the IS is OP because it explains why you get stomped all the time.

[ThrashInc]

But I think the IS is very strong and no one says look at all these planets CSJ doesn't capture

[Jaroth Corbett]

Heisenbug, on 24 February 2015 - 12:05 AM, said:

it sucks to be IS right now...

With the quirks you guys have? Gimme a break.......... only white knights believe this.

[Yokaiko]

YCSLiesmith, on 19 March 2015 - 04:18 AM, said:

good thing the dragon 1n is a glass cannon so blocking with the center torso is not an effective strategy

Works for me.

[Richter Kerensky]

At this point in time I don't really believe Hellbringers having ECM is a real problem.

[delushin]

You must become one with the chassis in which you pilot, for it is not the place of a merc to pick flaws with his tools when fulfilling a contract for true leader.

[Vocis]

Richter Kerensky, on 19 March 2015 - 04:40 PM, said:

At this point in time I don't really believe Hellbringers having ECM is a real problem.

At this point in time if they removed ECM from the Hellbringer they might as well remove the Hellbringer.

With out ECM is a straight up inferior Timberwolf.

The Lack of Endo or FF combined with the split slots is a 1-2 punch.

[Tarogato]

Heisenbug, on 24 February 2015 - 12:05 AM, said:

Alright you people with 4 digits worth of posts, get busy explaining why I'm wrong...

Hmmm, do I have four digits? ... eh, check. Guess that's a green light, then.

1. The problem with ECM isn't LRMs. It's target deprivation in general - you can't see letters to call targets and you can't see paperdolls and loadouts.

2. BAP. If clanner ECM bothers you, bring BAP on all your mechs, it's not expensive.

3. ECM is in the Hellbringer's left torso. It only takes two alphas from most IS mechs to take that torso out. Even better if it's a laser vomit Hellbringer, because then it loses all its weapons, too.

YCSLiesmith, on 19 March 2015 - 05:46 AM, said:

Actually I think that the problem here is that you are a clan wolf bad who is desperate to believe that the IS is OP because it explains why you get stomped all the time.

He's not a bad, and as far as I'm aware he's the one that's doing most of the stomping.

Clans mechs aren't that great if the Innersphere capitalises on their disadvantages.

Stormcrows? Leg them, all the torso twisting in the world can't stop you.
Timberwolfs? Lob off their ears, they're squishy and can be hit from every angle.
Hellbringers? Take out the ECM side torso (or take out the UAC first if they have an UAC.)
Direwolfs? Sitting ducks.

Clans have to stare at you to deal their full damage. People who shrink away in fear when they get laservomit in their face are the people who cry that clans are OP. At range, any combination of DRG, STK, and TDR should be able to team up and win trades. At close range, they're hot. Keep the pressure up and they won't be able to maintain the same DPS that the IS can. Every clan mech that gets a chance to back away and cooldown for free represents a mistake on part of the IS players that didn't keep the pressure up.

[ThrashInc]

Tarogato, on 19 March 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

Hmmm, do I have four digits? ... eh, check. Guess that's a green light, then.

What are you doing, making sense and all.

Also, I don't know if BAP is a great counter as it only works under 240m or so and it's really ineffective against lights at that range. (Basing it off CAP, which is basically just wasted space IMO)

Everything else, yes.

[MarcusMC]

Richter Kerensky, on 19 March 2015 - 04:40 PM, said:

At this point in time I don't really believe Hellbringers having ECM is a real problem.

Wait for another two Clan ECM's and you will see real problem clearly.

[Murphy7]

Strangely enough, I think the unlocking of color channels on Clan mechs could help alleviate the ECM heavy concerns.

First, the real benefit to Hellbringer ECM is that is on a 65 ton platform, and bringing it does not adversely affect your overall firepower - it sits at the sweetspot tonnage of 55-60-65 tons, where a mech slot is not eating up a lot of tonnage nor is it leaving too many tons on the table.

Target identification is the big issue as noted above. This is exacerbated by the relative paucity of paint schemes on the clan mechs which ensures that one clan mech pretty much looks like another. This can be overcome in part by judicious UAV use, so it is benefit but not an insurmountable one.

Clan drop decks are routinely at least two deep in ECM mechs, whereas the IS typically is one per deck - it's the tonnage and firepower tradeoff, which the clans handily win because 65 tons is neither underweight nor low firepower for its weight. True enough, had the resistance been the Black Knight ECM variant, we'd be even in ECM as everyone would have at least one of those in their decks in the IS, and the conversation would be slightly different (focus on ECM system being broken overall, rather than disparity of access to a broken system).

[EldenLance]

Hellbringer is not OP If compared to my 1N or 5N.

[sdsnowbum]

EldenLance, on 20 March 2015 - 04:19 AM, said:

Hellbringer is not OP If compared to my 1N or 5N.

Why not compare it to a Raven or Atlas?

[Adamski]

sdsnowbum, on 20 March 2015 - 06:43 AM, said:

Why not compare it to a Raven or Atlas?

Because its closer to a Cicada than either of those.

But like its been mentioned already, PGI are doing their damnedest to stop light rushing, which penalizes IS who has all their ECM on light mechs, or an atlas with hardpoints at the same height as light mechs.

Overall, I would rather see ECM get nerfed, as it removes strategy from mech building. Some JJ capable mechs forgo their JJ without being a "bad" build. There is no such case for an ECM mech.

[AlmightyAeng]

Tarogato, on 19 March 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

Hmmm, do I have four digits? ... eh, check. Guess that's a green light, then.

1. The problem with ECM isn't LRMs. It's target deprivation in general - you can't see letters to call targets and you can't see paperdolls and loadouts.

2. BAP. If clanner ECM bothers you, bring BAP on all your mechs, it's not expensive.

3. ECM is in the Hellbringer's left torso. It only takes two alphas from most IS mechs to take that torso out. Even better if it's a laser vomit Hellbringer, because then it loses all its weapons, too.

He's not a bad, and as far as I'm aware he's the one that's doing most of the stomping.

Clans mechs aren't that great if the Innersphere capitalises on their disadvantages.

Stormcrows? Leg them, all the torso twisting in the world can't stop you.
Timberwolfs? Lob off their ears, they're squishy and can be hit from every angle.
Hellbringers? Take out the ECM side torso (or take out the UAC first if they have an UAC.)
Direwolfs? Sitting ducks.

Clans have to stare at you to deal their full damage. People who shrink away in fear when they get laservomit in their face are the people who cry that clans are OP. At range, any combination of DRG, STK, and TDR should be able to team up and win trades. At close range, they're hot. Keep the pressure up and they won't be able to maintain the same DPS that the IS can. Every clan mech that gets a chance to back away and cooldown for free represents a mistake on part of the IS players that didn't keep the pressure up.

Clans have to stare, but when they do, they outdamage IS in a straight push. Bring timbys, stormcrows and the odd ecm mech or two and you have a push of identical mechs that can easily identify XL engines in IS mechs. That push, under ECM, is a BEOTCH to call targets in.

IS mechs, on the other hand, will be able to fire for longer because they manage heat better, and have the better autocannons, so they can, if skilled, target the specific weaknesses you point out about the clan mechs.

Conclusion? Clan Mechs play the extreme range peekaboo game better...and have the upper hand in an all-out blitz.

However, IS mechs have the advantage in a prolonged brawl.

Am I one of the few that thinks the differences tends to even out the balance between these two sides? Because I play both...and play them DIFFERENTLY, but have relatively equal rates of success...

Edited by Ghost Badger, 20 March 2015 - 09:52 AM.

[sycocys]

The Hellbringer itself isn't really a problem, its the 4+ of them per drop round, bringing 4+ ecm (imho broken ecm for both sides) to one side of the match.

If you just look at one thing or another, or mech to mech it isn't bad, but 4 heavies with ecm don't = 4 atlas or any combo of light/atlas because of the way the maps are designed. The problem in addition to the flawed ecm mechanic is that most of the CW maps are designed in a way that it gives Clan mechs clear LOS from their max ranges with little fear of retort to start every advance out.

Ecm should simply have a max active limit per side if they aren't going to fix how it works.

Overall balance wise if they actually implemented some game mechanics into the matches, I think overall you'd find that everything is pretty well in balance - but 12v12 when one side can call targets and the other can't effectively do so there is a clear advantage.