71 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 24 February 2015 - 10:22 PM, said:

Point, click, WUBWUBWUB 58 damage into one or two components, repeat, WubWubWub goes the warhorn?


Mech may vary, but it's pretty easy to kill things. Speed has no impact, nor does heat. Can the aiming actually get any simpler?

LRM boating is point and click if anything in this game. My question to you is, what is more point and click? Laser vomit or FLD (PPCs/ IS ACs)?

Can you accurately hold your lasers on target (single component) from 500 m away? how bout 800m? How about 1000 m? (Okay that last one only really applies to ER LLs with quirks)?

Can you accurately and repeatedly hit the same component with (ER) PPCs from 600m-700m out? Atlas is one thing what about a Timber Wolf trudging along on uneven terrain? Or a Firestarter?

What is your accuracy % with PPCs and ER PPCs? If it is anything less than 100% then aiming obviously isn't as simple and point and click as you are saying..

Keep in mind that just because you are a good player and some things come easy for you doesn't mean it is for everyone... I have seen some things..

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Kristov Kerensky, on 25 February 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

You neglect to mention that in CS a hit in the toe is as lethal as a hit in the eye. You also failed to mention the fact that those 'pros' have been banned because it turns out they used hacks and got caught, so they didn't even have a cone of fire when they played. You REALLY should keep up on the subject you plan to use as your 'evidence' of how things should be, otherwise you end up looking...like this. To be fair, this isn't the first time this has happened for top teams who make money in video games.

CoF isn't needed, it's HATED in every single game that uses it. CS forums were full of that hatred from the original CS, much less the 'new' CS and CS:GO. Battlefield, every single installment, forums full of the hatred, we begged and pleaded with DiCE to remove it for BF2 and on out, they left CoF in regardless of the player's requests. It's easier to do a CoF than do all the other ways to mess with aim, simple as that.

MWO could do some of those other things, which have been suggested in this thread and others for the past 3 years, and maybe they will at some point, once HSR and hitreg actually work properly all the time. Until that happens....

I did not played really CS so I don`t know exactly what are you talking about but wellcharing was out of the games from 20 years? Wolfenstein? IF CoF would be so hated feature I am sure it wouldnt be in just every damn FPS game out there.
Those PROS? All pros has been banned? You have lost contact with reality. All I heard is some group from time to time of cheaters banned and that have absolutely nothing with subject of this thread. There are dozens of good ideas out there how to fix PPFLD. Search for HomelessBill idea for instance.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 25 February 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

I did not played really CS so I don`t know exactly what are you talking about but wellcharing was out of the games from 20 years? Wolfenstein? IF CoF would be so hated feature I am sure it wouldnt be in just every damn FPS game out there.
Those PROS? All pros has been banned? You have lost contact with reality. All I heard is some group from time to time of cheaters banned and that have absolutely nothing with subject of this thread. There are dozens of good ideas out there how to fix PPFLD. Search for HomelessBill idea for instance.

The simple fix for PPFLD is keep moving and spreading damage. I rarely have issues with it, and when I do, its because I was being lazy.

Also the CoF you are describing is because it is unrealistic to expect someone to spray bullets in the exact same spot one after the other. The first shot SHOULD be dead on, and subsequent shots should stray and move around.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 25 February 2015 - 04:33 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

You can't spread PPFLD damage, Guzzler. That's what makes it PPFLD. That's the whole point.

[Gas Guzzler]

News to me. Do you have premium time? We can see how pin point PPFLD actually is if you want.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 February 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

LRM boating is point and click if anything in this game. My question to you is, what is more point and click? Laser vomit or FLD (PPCs/ IS ACs)?

Can you accurately hold your lasers on target (single component) from 500 m away? how bout 800m? How about 1000 m? (Okay that last one only really applies to ER LLs with quirks)?

Can you accurately and repeatedly hit the same component with (ER) PPCs from 600m-700m out? Atlas is one thing what about a Timber Wolf trudging along on uneven terrain? Or a Firestarter?

What is your accuracy % with PPCs and ER PPCs? If it is anything less than 100% then aiming obviously isn't as simple and point and click as you are saying.

Keep in mind that just because you are a good player and some things come easy for you doesn't mean it is for everyone... I have seen some things..

I do consider Laser Vomit easier than LRMs, yes. In the world of Radar Derp, it's simply frustrating to try and use such a bad weapon.

Lazors are both fun and effective as well as being easy to use.


Before the nerfs, yes, it was pretty easy to get those shots. 9S makes is still pretty possibly on the larger things. Lights are hit or miss.

2KM/s was Gauss speed, you know how easy it can be to land those shots. They've been nerfed hard, as have ACs to a lesser degree.

Muromets and Crabs still tear things up, but not as effectively as a WubShee. Which, by it's nature, prefers to be at sub 200M. I don't enjoy sniping at 800M, I find it very boring.

I'd have to actually try it to comment on it. I hear it's a "meta" of sorts. I have no intention of joining in. Seems like very stale gameplay.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 25 February 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

I do consider Laser Vomit easier than LRMs, yes. In the world of Radar Derp, it's simply frustrating to try and use such a bad weapon.

Lazors are both fun and effective as well as being easy to use.


Before the nerfs, yes, it was pretty easy to get those shots. 9S makes is still pretty possibly on the larger things. Lights are hit or miss.

2KM/s was Gauss speed, you know how easy it can be to land those shots. They've been nerfed hard, as have ACs to a lesser degree.

Muromets and Crabs still tear things up, but not as effectively as a WubShee. Which, by it's nature, prefers to be at sub 200M. I don't enjoy sniping at 800M, I find it very boring.

I'd have to actually try it to comment on it. I hear it's a "meta" of sorts. I have no intention of joining in. Seems like very stale gameplay.

I mean I think it is fair to say LRMs aren't effective against good opponents, but they also do not take very much skill to use at all really, despite that some people insist they take tons of skills.

And to your last couple points, I am not sure what you are responding to. What "meta" are you referring to, and why are you mentioning the Ilya and King Crabs and stuff?

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 February 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

I mean I think it is fair to say LRMs aren't effective against good opponents, but they also do not take very much skill to use at all really, despite that some people insist they take tons of skills.

And to your last couple points, I am not sure what you are responding to. What "meta" are you referring to, and why are you mentioning the Ilya and King Crabs and stuff?

You said FLD; isDakka is FLD. It's also pretty effective.

Just not the most effective.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 25 February 2015 - 05:42 PM, said:

You said FLD; isDakka is FLD. It's also pretty effective.

Just not the most effective.

Ah, yes it is effective DPS wise, but staring down your enemies is never ideal.

[Bloodweaver]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 February 2015 - 04:58 PM, said:

News to me. Do you have premium time? We can see how pin point PPFLD actually is if you want.

You're confusing PPFLD with player accuracy, and beyond that, with "aim over time." They are two completely different things. PPFLD by definition cannot be spread. That's what makes it PPFLD. If your advice on dealing with it is "spread the damage," you must have some misunderstanding as to what the term actually means.

Lasers: can be PP in some situations, in theory, but are never FL, which is what makes their being PP a rarity
SRMs, IS LRMs: FL, but not PP
Clan LRMs: neither PP nor FL
ACs, Gauss, IS PPCs: PP and FL
Clan PPCs: FL, semi-PP (there is damage spread, technically, but it's always identical)

Being able to twist during multiple Gauss hits to your 'mech doesn't make Gauss any less PPFLD. You still receive a full 15 points of damage to one specific body part with each hit, every time, no exceptions. Saying that a "fix" for this is to keep moving and spreading damage ignores the core issue completely, which is how that weapon's damage is delivered in comparison to how other weapons' damages are delivered.

Another way to put it - the same "fix" you use for PPFLD is also a fix for non-PPFLD weapons. In fact, ir's even more effective against weapons that aren't PPFLD. So PPFLD is still superior to non-PPFLD, even when taking your "fix" into account. Which means it's not a fix at all.

Edited by Bloodweaver, 25 February 2015 - 11:08 PM.

[YueFei]

PPFLD can be spread under the right circumstances. Given mounting locations, differing projectile velocities, the need to lead the target (placing crosshairs onto the background, which may be the sky), range to target, etc., a PPFLD salvo might not all hit the same spot.

It's just that those circumstances are not..... consistent.

Sometimes you can be moving laterally at a good distance but because there's a piece of terrain in the background close to you that the enemy can aim at, his weapons are still properly converged for your distance from him.

Weapon mounting locations is also something the victim has no control over, it's just what the shooter has chosen to pilot and equip on his mech.

Same with differing projectile velocities, if the PPFLD salvo is a mixture of different weapons, as in the Gigaspike Whale with 2xERPPC and 2xGauss. At longer distances those often don't hit the same spot. That weapon combo actually scares me more at 200 meters than it does at 600 meters. I've often died while still having 20+ CT armor on my Hunchback because I derped my way in front of a Gigaspike Whale at close range, and he could use my own mech as an aimpoint to lead his shot, as in aim at my right shoulder to lead the shot and hit my CT. At that close range, the differing projectile speeds don't matter.

Anyways, PPFLD isn't totally consistent for the shooter or for the victim. Sometimes you're moving well and the salvo lands on two different body parts. Other times you're at just the right range, with just the right piece of background, against just the right combo of weapons/mounting locations, and eat everything into a single hitbox.

[Tombstoner]

zagibu, on 25 February 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

Usually when people talk about a COF, they mean that movement and turns add random spread to your shots for a short while, and the randomness decreases over time until it's perfectly accurate again if you stay still long enough. Faster movements add more randomness and slower movements do not make it that much less accurate. Such a system increases the incentive to move as little as possible, which leads to a boring camp fest.

If you are talking permanent random deviation, even when being perfectly still, forget that, it's wildly unpopular. If you are talking about recoil- or heat-induced COF, that doesn't solve the problem of the first salvo still remaining as accurate as it is now.

I favor dynamic error. The faster you go the worse it gets, however i would have a cap so its not excessive. Whats needed is a way to spread damage across the full front of the mech at medium range. At short ranges is all pinpoint. I also and i Think many other people who favor a COF system would desire ways to obtain pip point precision via things like the targeting computer, chain fire and the inclusion of a skill tree. One that contains power ups to further improve things like accuracy or hill clime rate. Anything that can be modified by the pilot.

BTW even the M1A1 needs to stop and take aim if it is to land long range shot. The gun also has a COF. The military calles it a circle error probable. SO yes the M1A1 can hit things on the run at flank speed... but that is with in a very specific set of ranges. That range increases when the tank stops. This is what people want when advocating for a cof.

Your not wrong in saying it will influence game play but it think it will be for the positive. Your not supposed to stand in the open and trade damage. Your supposed to maneuver and when a target enters your filed of view you strike and fade away only to repeat the process. This game is about flanking, Indirect and focused fire. Running from position to position should be risky not a death sentence. We have lots of peek a boob combat now, because its rewarded buy high damage,high heat alphas with pin point hits at long range. The game needs something to disincentives that and damage spread will do it.