46 replies to this topic

[Sprouticus]

I was thinking about the constant 'clan is OP', 'no it's not' argument and how we could look at things


The first thing is obviously the CW stats. You would have to normalize against group size, but that might give you a big picture idea. I am sure PGI can do this, not sure why they have not already.


The second though is very personal, but easier to see on a per play basis. What is your KDR in IS mechs vs clan mechs? After all, the biggest variable (pilot skill) is normalized in this.


Now, some caveats.

1) This is very play-style dependent. As an example, I tend to play a mid range to short range game. I am not a very good sniper, I am terrible with PPC's and Gauss. I roll some LRM boats too on occasion.
2) It excludes CW, so it only reflects solo and group queue
3) It is hard to compare IS and clan lights, completely different roles


To get around those I looked only at mechs where I had 50+ matches and tried to compare loadouts that were relatively close. Role was a bigger consideration than tonnage in the list below.

Here are my stats.

Average KDR- 1.15

LRM boats
Treb-7M 1.59
MDog 1.18
Catapult 1.31

Short range AC

HB-A(lbx20 1.72
Jager-DD 1.30
SCrow 1.44
Jaeger-S 1.83

laser vomit
BJ-3 (pre quirk) 1.0
SCrow prime 1.20
Nova Prime 1.04
TWolf prime 1.80
Wolfverine 6k(18 matches) 1.05
Cent-AL (15 matches) 2.17
Warhawk 1.71


SRM boat
TWolf 1.25
Never really ran many IS SRM boats

Streak boat
Shadowhawk 2d2 1.31
SCrow 1.37

PPC/Gauss snipers
Warhawk 0.69
Highlander (old) 1.27

Looking at these, and for me personally, the clan mechs are not extraordinarily better except maybe the TWolf laser vomit which is quite a bit higher than the rest.

Edited by Sprouticus, 24 February 2015 - 11:53 AM.

[Aethon]

Honestly, as wonky as the weapon stats are, I doubt the mech stats are reliable.

The last time I looked, my accuracy for the Medium Laser, Streak SRM2, and MG was over 100% somehow, lol.

[terrycloth]

LRM:
Catapult C1: 0.62
Stalker 5M: 1.05
Stormcrow D: 1.19

Lasers:
Centurion AL: 0.59
Stalker 4N: 0.98
Stormcrow Prime: 0.70

Mixed:
Orion VA: 0.40
Stalker 3F: 0.58
Timberwolf S: 0.60

ECM lights:
Pirate's Bane: 0.67
Raven 3L: 0.56
KitFox: 0.50

So, Stalkers are really good. TWolves and SCrows outshine most IS mechs. Kit Foxes aren't very good.

[mogs01gt]

IS Mechs
CN9-A 1.55(ac5+srm)
CN9-AH 2.18(ac10+srms)
CDA-3M 1.75(ERLL)
KTO-20 1.97(srms+ml)
KTO18 3.02(LRMS )
GRF-1N 1.79(ppc+srm)
Gray Death 2.45(Gauss)

Clan Mech
TBR-PRIME 2.29(LRMs+laser
CROW-C 1.89(lbx10, srms, mls)
THOR 1.67(erppc, 6ssrm, mls)

Doesnt matter what Im piloting...

Edited by mogs01gt, 24 February 2015 - 12:17 PM.

[BlackSquirrel]

Oddly enough no. TDR 5S and Battle masters are murder machines... All above 2 rating. Highest clan mech tie on SCR c and TBR prime at 1.80.

Fun fact my streak ratio is at 44- 59ish % So wtf streaks... Meanwhile med lasers are sitting at 80ish.

[Wrathful Scythe]

Looking at the mechs I played the most in the last few months, I get those stats:

• TBR-PRIME: 2.76 (2 LPL, 4ERML)
  
• DWF-PRIME: 2.75 (2 Gauss, 2LPL, 4ERML)
  
• SCR-PRIME: 3.15 (6 MPL)
  
• WHK-PRIME: 2.69 (4 ERPPCs)
  
• MDD-A: 2.40 (LRMS, ERML)

• RVN-3L: 1.69 (1 ERPPC, 2 ML, ECM)
  
• FS9-H: 3.13 (6 ML)
  
• TDR-9S: 3.89 (3 PPCs back then; 2 PPCs, 4 ML now)
  
• CTF-4X: 3.71 (4 AC/5, 1 ML)
  
• COM-TDK: 1.89 (4 ML)

I generally do better with my clanmechs because laservomit is easy to play and pretty darn effective on many ranges. Exception would be the Maddog with LRMs. But still, quirks made some IS mechs pretty deadly.
I would say that Clan/IS is pretty balanced in Pugland but in CW we still have the edge. We are fast, not ammo reliant and can take a beating while also bringing high alphas. We only lack in sustained DPS because of the heat.

PS: The 9S with the KDR of almost 4 stands a bit out, I wonder why.

Edited by Wrathful Scythe, 24 February 2015 - 12:37 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Nova at 424 drops with a K/d of 3.94
BJ1X at 62 drops, 4.48 Archived at 100 drops with 3.02
BJ1 archived with 293 with a ratio of 4.05

Stormcrow with a combined 3.57 with 177 drops


Similar enough


TimberGod only has 141 drops, with 3.46
Cataphract 3D with 107 is at 3.56
Muromets with 103 is at 4.86
Thunderbolt 5SS with 58 is at 6.53
Hellbringer Prime with 117 drops is at 4.57

Heavies seem pretty even.


Ember with 75 drops is at 3.38
Cute Fox Prime at 164 drops is 3.65

Bigger guns? Or just used more. It will lose an outright fight against any FS9.


Dire Whale only has a combined 71 drops, ratio of 3.6
WubShee 3M has 771 drops, with a ratio of 4.86

I guess I don't use the Whale enough.

[Nori Silverrage]

Mcgral18, on 24 February 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

Nova at 424 drops with a K/d of 3.94
BJ1X at 62 drops, 4.48 Archived at 100 drops with 3.02
BJ1 archived with 293 with a ratio of 4.05

Stormcrow with a combined 3.57 with 177 drops


Similar enough


TimberGod only has 141 drops, with 3.46
Cataphract 3D with 107 is at 3.56
Muromets with 103 is at 4.86
Thunderbolt 5SS with 58 is at 6.53
Hellbringer Prime with 117 drops is at 4.57

Heavies seem pretty even.


Ember with 75 drops is at 3.38
Cute Fox Prime at 164 drops is 3.65

Bigger guns? Or just used more. It will lose an outright fight against any FS9.


Dire Whale only has a combined 71 drops, ratio of 3.6
WubShee 3M has 771 drops, with a ratio of 4.86

I guess I don't use the Whale enough.

That TDR-5ss.. Scary!

[Fate 6]

My K/D with my clan mechs is definitely higher. Clans have a higher skill ceiling which means I can push my mechs to do more and carry harder. However, this is just general all-purpose Clan loadouts (lasers/gauss). I believe my IS brawlers have much better K/D than any Clan brawler I could put together. Also IS lights are waaaaay better.

Edited by Fate 6, 24 February 2015 - 01:15 PM.

[Cyberiad]

Clan mechs cost more cbills. If IS mechs that cost less cbills are just as good as clan mechs that cost more cbills then whats the point of ever buying clan mechs other than for cosmetic purposes?

[zagibu]

What's the point of buying IS mechs when clan mechs are flat out better? Oh, you save a currency you can't use for anything else but mech stuff!

[Mcgral18]

zagibu, on 24 February 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

What's the point of buying IS mechs when clan mechs are flat out better? Oh, you save a currency you can't use for anything else but mech stuff!

Apparently he doesn't know half the Clam mechs exist.

[Greenjulius]

My list: (only the top ~30, even though I have over 80 mechs)

GARGOYLE GAR-D 45 8 5.63
DIRE WOLF DWF-A 50 9 5.56
HELLBRINGER HBR-B 22 4 5.5
BLACKJACK BJ-1X 94 18 5.22
DIRE WOLF DWF-PRIME 65 14 4.64
CICADA CDA-2B 31 7 4.43
CICADA CDA-3M 19 5 3.8
MIST LYNX MLX-B 29 8 3.63
HELLBRINGER HBR-PRIME(I) 443 145 3.06
FIRESTARTER FS9-A 99 35 2.83
FIRESTARTER FS9-S 50 18 2.78
GARGOYLE GAR-PRIME 40 15 2.67
THE ARROW 116 45 2.58
LOCUST LCT-1E 50 20 2.5
BATTLEMASTER BLR-1S 70 29 2.41
RAVEN RVN-4X 42 18 2.33
PIRATES' BANE 33 15 2.2
FIRESTARTER FS9-K 35 16 2.19
ATLAS AS7-D-DC 77 36 2.14
DIRE WOLF DWF-B 34 16 2.13
CICADA CDA-2A 19 9 2.11
STORMCROW SCR-D 38 18 2.11
KING CRAB KGC-000(L) 57 27 2.11
CATAPULT CPLT-A1 143 69 2.07
BLACKJACK BJ-3 33 16 2.06
SHADOW HAWK SHD-5M 26 13 2
BATTLEMASTER BLR-3S 38 19 2
STORMCROW SCR-C 30 15 2
HELLBRINGER HBR-A 24 12 2
KIT FOX KFX-PRIME 367 184 1.99

The results are skewed to make my newer mechs far better than my old ones, simply because I've gotten significantly better over the past year due to more playtime. My current overall KDR is 1.98. I'm not a hider. I fight to the death.

My old standbys, the Kitfox and Ilya, are artificially low because I learned to play clan mechs and heavy mechs on them, respectively. The Ilya for instance was my first hero mech, and only has a 1.76 KDR, but I easily can run it with 2.0+ KDR now that I'm better at the game.

Clan mechs still have higher KDRs on average because of one simple fact: Clan XL engines. I've survived so many matches because I only lost a side torso. Mechs like the Gargoyle are easy to run asymmetrical builds, allowing me to do shockingly well with a sub-par chassis. The Hellbringer is obviously my most played mech nowadays, simply because the c-bill bonus and versatile hardpoints allow me to run it with laser vomit or hybrid LRM builds.

One of my new favorites however, the Arrow, is doing fairly well with a 2.58 KDR despite trouble keeping it alive when facing FS9-A's. My BJ-1X with 2xLPL and 4xML is also a deadly combo. I really like the Blackjacks.

Seriously, I'm to the point where I'm tired of seeing Firestarters. I see more FS9's now than any other mech. Some kind of reduction to their quirks is in order.

Overall, clan mechs are still better because: Clan XL. Spread the damage, live longer than any IS XL.

Edited by Greenjulius, 24 February 2015 - 02:38 PM.

[Hillslam]

The only stats that matter are the global ones accumulated by PGI (and guarded over by them like Golem over his precious).

Personal stats will come with a whole narrative explaining what they want to be the truth.

Stat: My clam mechs > 1.5x better KDR than my IS.

Personal truth: Its because when I choose to get in my clam I suddenly become a crack shot, tactical genius, uber pilot like all true clammers who invests more brain powah and willpowah in MWO and strives to be better thru intense competitive skillz despite the obvious handicap of my wet tissue clam mech having both its arms tied behind its back and its weapons nerfed. Then when I get back in my death ray god cannon toting IS mech I put on my pudding brains and spongebob diapers.)

Edited by Hillslam, 24 February 2015 - 02:28 PM.

[MechWarrior5152251]

kdr
SUMMONER SMN-PRIME(I) 1.71
TIMBER WOLF TBR-S 1.80
THUNDERBOLT TDR-9S 0.92

Edited by MechWarrior5152251, 24 February 2015 - 02:27 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Hillslam, on 24 February 2015 - 02:22 PM, said:

The only stats that matter are the global ones accumulated by PGI (and guarded over by them like Golem over his precious).

Personal stats will come with a whole narrative explaining what they want to be the truth.

(Stat: My clam mechs > 1.5x better KDR than my IS. Personal truth: its because when I choose to get in my clam I suddenly become a crack shot, tactical genius, uber pilot like all true clammers who invests more brain powah and willpowah in MWO and strives to be better thru intense competitive skillz despite the obvious handicap of my wet tissue clam mech having both its arms tied behind its back and its weapons nerfed. Then when I get back in my death ray god cannon toting IS mech I put on my pudding brains and spongebob diapers.)

Hm...I'm not seeing any numbers or stats here, just anecdotal BS.

Well, it is you after all.

[Votanin FleshRender]

Gadzooks, guys.. And here I thought I was finally getting good. With my paltry 2.0ish KDRs on my latest mechs, it turns out I'm just getting ok

[Greenjulius]

Mcgral18, on 24 February 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

Hm...I'm not seeing any numbers or stats here, just anecdotal BS.

Well, it is you after all.

I'm not sure if it's being brought up, but Clan-XLs make it much easier to survive, and clan laser vomit makes it easy to kill. I find it is much easier to run clan mechs overall.

That's my reason for picking a crutch mech like the Loki, as it's the best c-bill grinder I've got. The only non-clan mechs I've got that can run anywhere close to the efficiency of a dead clan mech are Blackjacks and Firestarters.

Firestarters are just a BS platform anyway, and need some kind of negative. Otherwise less and less people will play all other IS lights, and flock to the FS9. I don't even try with my stupid FS9s and get ~3.0 KDRs.

Votanin FleshRender, on 24 February 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

Gadzooks, guys.. And here I thought I was finally getting good. With my paltry 2.0ish KDRs on my latest mechs, it turns out I'm just getting ok

2.0 is good. You'll find that some clan mechs, like the Direwolf, make it stupid-easy to get 5.0+ however. Clammers will never admit that of course.

Edited by Greenjulius, 24 February 2015 - 02:44 PM.

[DONTOR]

My regular DONTOR account that I mostly use Clan mechs on is 2.69 while my C bills only account with all i.s. mechs, nearly all only basic pilot skills, is really close at 2.61.

So the difference is extremely minimal, a good pilot can make either work equaly effectively.

[Mcgral18]

Greenjulius, on 24 February 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

I'm not sure if it's being brought up, but Clan-XLs make it much easier to survive, and clan laser vomit makes it easy to kill. I find it is much easier to run clan mechs overall.

That's my reason for picking a crutch mech like the Loki, as it's the best c-bill grinder I've got. The only non-clan mechs I've got that can run anywhere close to the efficiency of a dead clan mech are Blackjacks and Firestarters.

Funny you mention that. My crutch mechs are both IS; Banshee and Thunderbolt.

Thunderbolt having more IS+A in their STs than 90 ton mechs. WubShee having a more heat efficient, half burn time, more damaging alpha than just about any Clan mech. If they match the damage, they can't match the heat, baring the Whales.


Loki feels fragile in comparison, but it's one of the good but not too good Clams. A nice baseline.