54 replies to this topic

[Vlad Striker]

Worst? Disagree. lrm60 boats leads kill roster. But you need to cooking them properly.

[SethAbercromby]

Terciel1976, on 25 February 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

Lol. No. LRMs are the worst way to get kills. Always. SRMs, lasers, PPCs...all deadlier on Stalkers. Want big empty damage numbers? Go LRMs.

Any damage is worthwhile damage imo. Even if all damage you do inexplicably goes into the legs, someone will still be situationally aware to take advantage of it. Any damage you do is less damage someone else has to do. I'd agree any time of the day that LRMs are difficult to justify their tonnage, but to call any kind of damage worthless for whatever reason just silly.

[TercieI]

SethAbercromby, on 25 February 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

Any damage is worthwhile damage imo. Even if all damage you do inexplicably goes into the legs, someone will still be situationally aware to take advantage of it. Any damage you do is less damage someone else has to do. I'd agree any time of the day that LRMs are difficult to justify their tonnage, but to call any kind of damage worthless for whatever reason just silly.

Specifically in the context of an assault (which is what we're talking about here), I disagree. An assault has two jobs: dish out damage and take damage. An LRM assault forsakes one of these jobs and does a sub-par job of the other because they can't focus the damage they do do. So I consider their damage pretty much empty, because they cost their team more than they contribute. Their teammates may have to do less damage (though I doubt it vs other weapon systems) but they definitely have to take a lot more.

Edited by Terciel1976, 25 February 2015 - 10:36 AM.

[SethAbercromby]

Terciel1976, on 25 February 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

Specifically in the context of an assault (which is what we're talking about here), I disagree. An assault has two jobs: dish out damage and take damage. An LRM assault forsakes one of these jobs and does a sub-par job of the other because they can't focus the damage they do do. So I consider their damage pretty much empty, because they cost their team more than they contribute. Their teammates may have to do less damage (though I doubt it vs other weapon systems) but they definitely have to take a lot more.

I never boat LRMs exclusively, so I agree. On most Assaults, bringing 2 LRM10s with 2-3 tons of ammunition is more than enough to provide indirect support as you try to keep up with your teammates and doesn't take too much tonnage to bring large weapons for the proper engagements, specifically on the Stalkers, which don't need to pay big tonnage for large ballistics.

Case in point: LRM20 to deliver hurt at indirect targets and enough DHS to run heat neutral with 2 LLs.

[SnagaDance]

Bubblewhip, on 25 February 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

Because of the poor torso twist and slow speed, streaks seem to be the answer over unguided SRMS.

In my personal experience a mech with those characteristics is actually a poor candidate for Streaks as they cannot keep fast targets in sight long enough to establish a lock.

Maybe when you've got a BAP equipped plus the Artemis upgrade (for those who do not know, Artemis actually helps Streak lock-on time while they do not make the launchers heavier or bigger) but even then I'm doubtful.

[YCSLiesmith]

Vlad Striker, on 25 February 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

Worst? Disagree. lrm60 boats leads kill roster. But you need to cooking them properly.

lrms are counterable, and they are the least accurate weapon in the game. next time you are playing, watch your health when you get hit by an lrm. I promise that you will end up with all yellows, maybe a single orange component if you turn well and defend with a shield arm. the damage spreads out so that the numbers look high but that mech is still confident and completely in the fight. you have done nothing to bring that guy down. Hit him again and he's still yellow, maybe some orange, again completely in the fight.

meanwhile you poke someone with the full burn from three large lasers and he's got one or two components with scary colors on them, he's spooked now. poke him a couple more times in the same spot and he goes down like a chump. even if you don't, someone else will see he's vulnerable in a specific place and fry him later in the match. you've got WAY less damage on the board than the LRM boat but you've contributed a ton more to your side's victory.

[YCSLiesmith]

SethAbercromby, on 25 February 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

Any damage is worthwhile damage imo. Even if all damage you do inexplicably goes into the legs, someone will still be situationally aware to take advantage of it. Any damage you do is less damage someone else has to do. I'd agree any time of the day that LRMs are difficult to justify their tonnage, but to call any kind of damage worthless for whatever reason just silly.

This isn't correct. Any damage you do is good in theory, but the problem arises when you are doing less directed damage because you swapped it for lrms. sure, you're doing damage at the beginning of the fight (maybe, if your lock isn't behind cover or under ECM) but later on when people start brawling you're useless, and when some firestarter shows up to leg you that's a free kill for the opposition because you're a joke up close. you might, MAYBE, get away with an LRM boat on a sniper wave, but even then there are usually better and more flexible options and I'd never bring one.

Ultimately even the high damage numbers are misleading. early on in your mechwarrior skill development cycle LRMs feel like a great way to be effective, but a skillful pilot with lasers or ballistics or streaks will consistently outdamage the LRM guy, especially over the long term. And in CW no one competitive brings LRMs. The main reason Kurita is slaughtering the Davions and Marik when we fight them is because we don't waste tonnage on long range missiles and they always do.

[SethAbercromby]

YCSLiesmith, on 25 February 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

lrms are counterable, and they are the least accurate weapon in the game. next time you are playing, watch your health when you get hit by an lrm. I promise that you will end up with all yellows, maybe a single orange component if you turn well and defend with a shield arm. the damage spreads out so that the numbers look high but that mech is still confident and completely in the fight. you have done nothing to bring that guy down. Hit him again and he's still yellow, maybe some orange, again completely in the fight.

meanwhile you poke someone with the full burn from three large lasers and he's got one or two components with scary colors on them, he's spooked now. poke him a couple more times in the same spot and he goes down like a chump. even if you don't, someone else will see he's vulnerable in a specific place and fry him later in the match. you've got WAY less damage on the board than the LRM boat but you've contributed a ton more to your side's victory.

But look at it like this: You get hit by an LRM volley, everything yellow. Then you get hit another time, first traces of orange. One oh his buddys comes around, seed your torso already having traces of orange and focuses on that, quickly bringing it into the red. All the while the LRMs have softened you up at absolultey zero risk to that player. If he's intelligent enough to deal with mediums and lights that think LRMs == exclusively LRMs (like that mock 4N I just posted) and you've got someone that most certainly won't go down without a fight.

YCSLiesmith, on 25 February 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

This isn't correct. Any damage you do is good in theory, but the problem arises when you are doing less directed damage because you swapped it for lrms. sure, you're doing damage at the beginning of the fight (maybe, if your lock isn't behind cover or under ECM) but later on when people start brawling you're useless, and when some firestarter shows up to leg you that's a free kill for the opposition because you're a joke up close. you might, MAYBE, get away with an LRM boat on a sniper wave, but even then there are usually better and more flexible options and I'd never bring one.

Ultimately even the high damage numbers are misleading. early on in your mechwarrior skill development cycle LRMs feel like a great way to be effective, but a skillful pilot with lasers or ballistics or streaks will consistently outdamage the LRM guy, especially over the long term. And in CW no one competitive brings LRMs. The main reason Kurita is slaughtering the Davions and Marik when we fight them is because we don't waste tonnage on long range missiles and they always do.

Again LRMs =/= exclusively LRMs. Even Medium players aren't dumb enough to use LRMs exclusively, I see no reason to not apply the same logic when talking Assaults.

EDIT: I usually don't bring LRMs with my drop-decks for varius reasons, most primarily the large ECM presence on Clan side, but in group drops, I always like to bring something that counters my slow speed and gives me an advantage in certain situations.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 25 February 2015 - 11:13 AM.

[YCSLiesmith]

SethAbercromby, on 25 February 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

But look at it like this: You get hit by an LRM volley, everything yellow. Then you get hit another time, first traces of orange. One oh his buddys comes around, seed your torso already having traces of orange and focuses on that, quickly bringing it into the red. All the while the LRMs have softened you up at absolultey zero risk to that player. If he's intelligent enough to deal with mediums and lights that think LRMs == exclusively LRMs (like that mock 4N I just posted) and you've got someone that most certainly won't go down without a fight.


Again LRMs =/= exclusively LRMs. Even Medium players aren't dumb enough to use LRMs exclusively, I see no reason to not apply the same logic when talking Assaults.

EDIT: I usually don't bring LRMs with my drop-decks for varius reasons, most primarily the large ECM presence on Clan side, but in group drops, I always like to bring something that counters my slow speed and gives me an advantage in certain situations.

you get hit by an lrm, you get in cover, you stop getting hit by lrms. you may, occasionally, see someone getting hammered by missile after missile but it's not that common. meanwhile a sniper is going to pick off specific components, bringing them down faster and giving less time to escape. and he'll do it more often and faster than the LRM boat. and often against a competent team they'll be under ECM so you're not doing ANY damage to them, even if they march straight at you in the open, because you can't get lock.

as for mixing LRMs with other weapons, that just makes you totally incompetent. The number of times I've seen players say 'but my lrm crab is strong, I put AC 2s on it for home defense' or 'watch out for my catapult, it will beat you up and when you come close, four mlas in your face!' is beyond belief. I laugh at those players as i shoot them in the back miles from any support. Everyone does. it's a waste of a mech.

[Mott]

Bubblewhip, on 24 February 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

This build worked out well, I can vomit out lasers almost all day so long as I don't alpha them, but I found that I was getting damage up to the 500s and sometimes not even netting a single kill.

Don't stress about it. As you level your mech and improve your piloting skills you will regularly surpass 800+ dmg and 2-6 kills in that rolling death machine. Tightening your laser beam spread is just a matter of practice. Also, learning the best scenarios to step up and strike without having to worry about too much movement or torso twisting - that's key for stalker pilots in the first 8 mins of a battle. You don't want things to get too hairy too quickly.

I hate assaults and feel terrible in them... but my LL and LPL loaded Stalkers are beasts.

[SethAbercromby]

YCSLiesmith, on 25 February 2015 - 11:24 AM, said:

as for mixing LRMs with other weapons, that just makes you totally incompetent. The number of times I've seen players say 'but my lrm crab is strong, I put AC 2s on it for home defense' or 'watch out for my catapult, it will beat you up and when you come close, four mlas in your face!' is beyond belief. I laugh at those players as i shoot them in the back miles from any support. Everyone does. it's a waste of a mech.

Now you're just making a fool of yourself. Have fun with your AC2 KGC while I bring Gauss Rifles instead. Sure, the big deal of a catapult is the fact that it's primarily designed for LRMs, but that doesn't mean you can't do other things with 'em. My C4 for example has a talent in surprising people by turning into a semi-decent jump brawler if they try to get up close.

[Arkadash]

Terciel1976, on 25 February 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

Specifically in the context of an assault (which is what we're talking about here), I disagree. An assault has two jobs: dish out damage and take damage. An LRM assault forsakes one of these jobs and does a sub-par job of the other because they can't focus the damage they do do. So I consider their damage pretty much empty, because they cost their team more than they contribute. Their teammates may have to do less damage (though I doubt it vs other weapon systems) but they definitely have to take a lot more.

heh heh heh - he said doo doo.

Edited by Arkadash, 25 February 2015 - 12:12 PM.

[TercieI]

Arkadash, on 25 February 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

heh heh heh - he said doo doo.

About LRMs? More than once.

[YCSLiesmith]

SethAbercromby, on 25 February 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

Now you're just making a fool of yourself. Have fun with your AC2 KGC while I bring Gauss Rifles instead. Sure, the big deal of a catapult is the fact that it's primarily designed for LRMs, but that doesn't mean you can't do other things with 'em. My C4 for example has a talent in surprising people by turning into a semi-decent jump brawler if they try to get up close.

You can't read well if you think i am saying you actually should put ac2 on a crab. also I would never put lrms on a catapult or any other mech because they are trash for noobs.

[SnagaDance]

YCSLiesmith, on 25 February 2015 - 11:24 AM, said:

you get hit by an lrm, you get in cover, you stop getting hit by lrms. you may, occasionally, see someone getting hammered by missile after missile but it's not that common. meanwhile a sniper is going to pick off specific components, bringing them down faster and giving less time to escape. and he'll do it more often and faster than the LRM boat. and often against a competent team they'll be under ECM so you're not doing ANY damage to them, even if they march straight at you in the open, because you can't get lock.

as for mixing LRMs with other weapons, that just makes you totally incompetent. The number of times I've seen players say 'but my lrm crab is strong, I put AC 2s on it for home defense' or 'watch out for my catapult, it will beat you up and when you come close, four mlas in your face!' is beyond belief. I laugh at those players as i shoot them in the back miles from any support. Everyone does. it's a waste of a mech.

YCSLiesmith, I'm afraid you're talking about high elo group/CW tactics/gameplay styles here. And while you're completely correct you must also keep in mind that this is the New Player Forum, and their elo will at best be average. They've got all the time of the world to learn about high level play when they become part of a good competitive group.

But for players in the middle and lower elo range LRMs are a very viable weapon, even more so in the uncoördinated PUG environment. Just look at all the recurring QQ threads from lower elo players about 'overpowered LRMs'. LRMs are curious in that they're probably the only weapon system with drastically results at different competency levels. If PGI would ever tweak them to be a viable option in high elo play it would mean total Lurmageddon for the other players.

[YCSLiesmith]

SnagaDance, on 26 February 2015 - 12:47 AM, said:

YCSLiesmith, I'm afraid you're talking about high elo group/CW tactics/gameplay styles here. And while you're completely correct you must also keep in mind that this is the New Player Forum, and their elo will at best be average. They've got all the time of the world to learn about high level play when they become part of a good competitive group.

But for players in the middle and lower elo range LRMs are a very viable weapon, even more so in the uncoördinated PUG environment. Just look at all the recurring QQ threads from lower elo players about 'overpowered LRMs'. LRMs are curious in that they're probably the only weapon system with drastically results at different competency levels. If PGI would ever tweak them to be a viable option in high elo play it would mean total Lurmageddon for the other players.

Bad habits learned as you begin this game are bad habits that will be carried forward into the future, and will eventually hold you back from ever being really good. Learning not to rely on LRMs is an important part of learning to really enjoy mechwarrior and being good at the game.

[TercieI]

YCSLiesmith, on 26 February 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:

Bad habits learned as you begin this game are bad habits that will be carried forward into the future, and will eventually hold you back from ever being really good. Learning not to rely on LRMs is an important part of learning to really enjoy mechwarrior and being good at the game.

^This. Even while you remain in an Elo bracket that allows LRMs to be effective, they provide a hindrance to the development of your skills.

[SnagaDance]

YCSLiesmith, on 26 February 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:

Bad habits learned as you begin this game are bad habits that will be carried forward into the future, and will eventually hold you back from ever being really good. Learning not to rely on LRMs is an important part of learning to really enjoy mechwarrior and being good at the game.

Terciel1976, on 26 February 2015 - 05:13 AM, said:

^This. Even while you remain in an Elo bracket that allows LRMs to be effective, they provide a hindrance to the development of your skills.

Only if you're incapable of change. And sure, those people exist, but they will be stunted using a more capable weapon system while 'gitting gud' as well, as they will be equally incapable of diverting from it.

I personally started with mainly regular lasers when I started, added in Streaks, then came the LRMs, finally my big move to ballistics (including Gauss) and also SRMs, with finally pulse lasers after they were tweaked to be effective. I'd like to think that my broad 'education' has given me a good idea about the pros and cons of each system.

Meanwhile I'm perfectly able to use LRMs at my elo level. Why would I deny myself, or any other player, an effective weapon system (within its own little world)? At the same time I'm perfectly capable to do without LRMs, it is not in any way a crutch, merely a different type of spice in my MWO gumbo.

[TercieI]

SnagaDance, on 26 February 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

Meanwhile I'm perfectly able to use LRMs at my elo level. Why would I deny myself, or any other player, an effective weapon system (within its own little world)? At the same time I'm perfectly capable to do without LRMs, it is not in any way a crutch, merely a different type of spice in my MWO gumbo.

Because they're not really effective by any definition that means anything. Effective means "winning" IMO and you cannot drive wins with LRMs. You are, by necessity, a passenger, not a driver. You can't carry, you have to be carried. Even with big damage numbers, you are a parasite on your teammates. You rely on them for targeting, you spend their armor, etc. They do the actual work and you reap the rewards (maybe). They are also painfully circumstantial. You need a lot of things to break right for them to work (Map, ECM, targeting, etc... ). And the more tonnage dedicated to a LRM boat, the more true all of this becomes.

This is why I "deny myself" LRMs* and am critical of those who do use them. Fundamentally, they cannot reliably drive wins. And if you're not trying to drive wins, you're not really a very good teammate.

Full disclosure: this is my team (I was OOT for the match but involved in the run-up). If everything stacks right, LRMs can be hilariously effective, but you can't usually know that things will stack right (This video is of a MCW match with the perfect map and restrictions for LRMs, we would never do this normally because it would never work against a competent team normally).

*This is actually fair, I used to rather enjoy LRMing, but once I came to grips with trying to help my team win every match, I no longer use them.

Edited by Terciel1976, 26 February 2015 - 08:10 AM.

[YCSLiesmith]

SnagaDance, on 26 February 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

Only if you're incapable of change. And sure, those people exist, but they will be stunted using a more capable weapon system while 'gitting gud' as well, as they will be equally incapable of diverting from it.

I personally started with mainly regular lasers when I started, added in Streaks, then came the LRMs, finally my big move to ballistics (including Gauss) and also SRMs, with finally pulse lasers after they were tweaked to be effective. I'd like to think that my broad 'education' has given me a good idea about the pros and cons of each system.

Meanwhile I'm perfectly able to use LRMs at my elo level. Why would I deny myself, or any other player, an effective weapon system (within its own little world)? At the same time I'm perfectly capable to do without LRMs, it is not in any way a crutch, merely a different type of spice in my MWO gumbo.

I'm sorry but the way you talk, it's clear that you aren't actually interested in getting that good at the game. Maybe I'm wrong, I've never dropped against you to my knowledge, but you're defending bad habits with really spurious arguments and it feels like you're justifying the things you yourself do wrong. LRMs are simply not that effective, they are a noob trap option that people should learn to avoid from day one, like flamethrowers. If your argument is 'yeah but I like LRMs because they fit my mobile artillery fantasy' then that's fine, but if you are interested in ACTUALLY WINNING MATCHES then LRMs are a long term bad option.

As for 'incapable of change' please don't make me laugh. LRMs feel really good as a new player, and that makes you defend them, as evidenced by the number of people who refuse to admit they suck. This is natural and nothing to be ashamed of: habits formed when you start out are carried forward until they are broken, often at the cost of tremendous effort. It is better not to fall into bad habits from the get-go. This goes for any sport or activity, whether it be lacrosse or painting warhammer figurines or washing the dishes. I can hardly count the number of kids I coach who have been taught the fundamentals of their sport incorrectly and are now being held back by it. building good habits is step one of building skills.

If I was to take a newbie along in this game, I'd do what was done for me: tell them that LRMs are a trap and explain why, tell them not to take flamers or put XL engines in their assault mechs, show them the meta builds and walk through why they are strong. I'd show them some of the habits you need to build like torso twisting and coordinating drops so your group isn't a mess. I'd tell them to get on teamspeak. I don't buy this whole 'skills are for experienced players, let newbies go down blind alleys like LRMs, they're just playing for fun' thing. It's fun to win. It's fun to fool around with friends and laugh as you rain fire on your enemies and Just Know what it is you should be doing. it's not fun to hit a plateau in your skills and not be able to get past it. It's especially not fun to be told that the one thing you think is your strength is actually a crutch, and is the main thing holding you back from ever cracking that thousand damage threshold in a match.

I myself just got told by a really amazing player that one of NKVA's favorite tactics (assault brawler rush) is a suboptimal play that will get us trashed against actual good players. I want to not believe it, I want to argue with the person who said that and say 'b-b-but assault brawling is fun and we win all the time!' It's actually really hard to believe them. but they know the game better than I ever will, and I'm gonna make a real effort to change my playstyle because I like to win and dont like to get stomped. I wish I had been given this advice earlier but the earlier I shift my priorities the earlier I can start to get better and stop being a noob.