25 replies to this topic

[The Shredder]

Open up the faction menu, and you will see one or two worlds in the attack and defense lane that are active, while the rest sit at zeroes. It is my belief that one day these planets will represent more than just a shifting line on the map and a tally mark. To believe otherwise is madness.

We came to the Rasalhague to help maintain their community against superior clan invaders. Lore tells us that the FRR practically disappeared in 3050. In looking over the backgrounds of each of the Great Houses, the ideals upon which the FRR were founded seem to be the closest thing Battletech has to the spirit of freedom.

And Clan 'Mechs are definitely our superiors in the rigid structure of community warfare. Oft heard is the comment that Inner Sphere pilots contain greater skill, while our Clan foes are for the "easy mode" warriors. If we had a little greater control, we'd be able to rally superior numbers and beat them back with sheer attrition. Clasically, the Inner Sphere was forced to dust off every spare 'Mech they could find, just to come up with the numbers destroyed daily by the sweeping Clan hordes. It was only by exploiting their own system of honor that their advance was halted. Further exploits allowed the forces of the Federated Commonwealth, combined with forces from the Draconian Empire and supplied with equipment from the Free Worlds League to all but wipe out an entire Clan, disrupting the dangerous balance of clan life.

We have no way to bring their advance to a halt. No honor system to exploit. No way to throw superior numbers at a planet in order to overtake it. Clan pilots don't even have to follow the Star rule that would see them field 10 'Mechs for every 12 IS 'Mechs. In the current Beta stage, it seems the Community Warfare is out to reward the "meta" pilots that fight over stats, and simply won't field anything other than what they consider "Perfect" builds. By my recollection, the Omni-Mech system was geared more as a means to help out logistics than one to allow for total pilot customization. Whereas Inner Sphere pilots were forced to piece together fighting machines from whatever equipment could be scrounged, Clan Techs had the pride of sticking a shattered Timberwolf into a gantry, and with the turn of a few air wrenches have it back in exactly the same condition it left the factory in. In a game like MWO, such a concept would force those that came for the customization to quit.

So what would be a good balancer on the battlefield, other than the 12 VS 10 format? Force the Clan 'Mechs to fight stock, in order to reflect the fact that their supply line was stretched. Omni-Mechs were designed to be a quarter-master's dream. A Clan Dropship would field a unit, and a cache of factory-perfect spares that can be fitted onto several chassis in a quick manner. Figuring out how to change the AC/10 for an AC/20 on the Yen-Lo-Wang took a pair of technical minds more than a week to figure out. In other words, Clan 'Mechs would be stock, and Inner Sphere 'Mechs might have some degree of customization, at least as far as front-line machines go.

Barring that, allowing an Inner Sphere unit to field 'captured' clan technology would help. Only allow the top few tiers of pilots this priveledge, allowing the "meta" players justification for their 8 hours/day practice, while us "Lore-Keepers" are still happily tromping away in our Battlemasters. Perhaps allow Clan Chassis selection after a certain number of CW points - like a combined number of loyalty points. Unlock certain faction-specifc unlocks for the loyalists and completionists. This is a Beta. If PGI is going to note anything, it's how the Beta players are wrecking that map on a daily basis, pushing Clan lines well below where they ought to be. They've patched in things that have broken the "Meta" before - time to take that up a notch.

More extreme would force players to lock down a certain number of 'Mechs to their Dropship pool - unable to be modified or accessed outside CW for the length of a season. Those of us with vast amounts of 'Mechs would fare just fine, but the meta player on a shoestring budget would be forced to live without certain 'Mechs in standard drops that they have locked into a contract. The contract terms could be used to cover a "Guarentee of Equipment" While tracking salvage would be a pain, and having players be ejected out of CW after losing all the 'Mechs in their pool would both be bad ideas, paying a certain amount of fees for dropship storage and maintenance would cause more players to be active in CW, perhaps resulting in fewer planets sporting double zeros for their queue.

On the surface, such restrictions seem as if they would scare players away. In a sense, they would. The folks that play games solely to crush the spirits of their fellow men and women online would be forced to get more involved in the community, and in a positive light. Give the power to Merc leaders as to where their 'Mechs are sent would be huge as well - if you don't speak up beforehand, you have no right to complain that your Clan-busting 'deck was just sent to Luthien to inquire amongst the Dracs as to how many Dragons can they fit in a Gazelle.
Again, I stress that PGI points out at every turn that the CW we see is only a Beta. We are testing their work, and what we rally around will determine the course they take. Do we wish to let them see just numbers, and make their decisions thusly, or do we stand up and voice an opinion on the subject? Rally together as a community. How many people do each of us know that have left the game due it it not seeming to honor the BattleTech name, or folks that haven't signed up because they don't see it as a true BattleTech experience? So what if we lose a few World of Tanks or Call of Duty Meta-babies if we gain back the respect of those that saw the initial trailers way back and jumped with glee to be back in the 'pit of a Battlemech again? The Founder's didn't invest in this project to support the next mindless meta game, we invested to play the next generation BATTLETECH game. This forum saw huge activity from a community that largely hadn't even received beta keys. Folks forming around the factions, leaning into the lore. The folks that were excited to learn the game would be placed at the start of the Clan invasion, who had warm thoughts of playing a part in the grand opera that the fine folks of FASA set into motion three decades ago.

PGI, the war being waged is not on the worlds of the Inner Sphere, but over the very soul of the franchise you have shouldered the mantle for. I firmly believe that the announcement of this product sparked a growth in the Tabletop realm as well. Dark Age products were replaced by Iron Winds resculpting of their cartoonish-ness into some seriously cool looking machines. (Just saw the release of the 3145 King Crab... WEEEE!)

Take up that mantle firmly. You've gained the rights to feature the Unseen, yet you don't network with other Battletech License holders to give this game the full support it deserves. With some vision, Battletech could be a contender on the world stage as well. What other franchise has such a low number of crud games, especially against the backdrop of the 25 years of Battletech on the PC? I can only think of Halo, yet it has only been around less than half as long.

Fans revitalized Battletech through the creation of Battlecorps! and Catalyst. If PGI is run by Battletech's fans, should they then not sound the bugle? Sure, Microsoft own the trade-mark, but I believe you've proven you can provide a product that earns it's keep. Renegotiate to a bigger piece of the pie - not the profits, but the sheer manpower that Microsoft could bring to bear. Present to them the consistent positive feedback the community has given you when you've reached goals, and ask for support to push through meeting all of them. Make the case well, and you could have the entirety of the original vision ready for the consumer inside two years. And yes, I do mean that exclamation that the goal was to being as much of Battletech into the hands of the player as possible. You've got numbers clearly on your side, time push on the real "Omega."

If the biggest fear is community support, then let me be the first to sign up under the banner of PGI. I've defended you for a long time, seeing the pain of going through process while everyone could watch. You've proven to this guy that you do just fine under constant scrutiny.

Get the numbers you need to complete the project. Keep the servers up, and call this the "Pre-game" while you complete your vision. And then choose a date to release MechWarrior Online 2.0. Show me that you are going to reward the faithful fans of the war machines of the 31st century for their faith, and I'll keep buying every 'Mech package you throw my way. At approx $10 a 'Mech, I just spend from a budget that would have gone towards Tabletop minis anyway. And with these, I get to play them against real people instead of the sad lonely games against myself at home.

You promised the free-to-play game that delivered with the impact of the biggest budget AAA titles. Who better to work with than the folks that brought us Halo, Fable, Motocross Madness and Solitaire? Say what you will about their OSes, Microsoft has a great track record with gaming. While they may have a whole division devoted to this type of computer that plugs into your TV that watches you while you play, they have more than enough fine folks in their employ that could lend PGI a hand. You might even dig up an original FASA employee or Ensemble programmer that wishes to try their hand at PC games again.

Finally, I give this as a suggestion: Why not set up a volunteer booth at your studios? Plenty of grunt work to be done, no secrets involved at all. Throw me an autographed glossy of my Founder's Catapult, and I'll make the drive up myself. From number-crunching to finding a whole new word meaning "Forest Green," there are loads of things to get done that tie up the minds responsible for keeping the game moving forward. We've thrown you money already - time to ask for manpower. (Or womanpower, as the case may be)

In conclusion: Battletech is a franchise that is at once united, and at the same time separated into disparate sections. With a target demographic that appeals to people in all walks of life, through all stages of life, both genders, children and their parents. Husbands and wives. It's the real Golden Goose of franchises. Seems silly the connection isn't being made, the call forwarded that would take advantage of that. Pop those K'Nex Battlemechs back on store shelves, give me a little metal figurine of the very same model I play in-game, and everybody involved would be able to tend to a real giving tree. Revive Tactics, perhaps open up titles under the Aerotech, CityTech or Battlespace names... Hire kids right out of college, eager for their first job... You stand at the controls of a machine that could help bring about a cycle of renewal.

PGI: Do you dare?

[jeirhart]

There is a lot going on in this post. Probably enough that you should have made separate threads for some of these paragraphs if only for the sake of organization and flow. Otherwise you got something a lot of people are gonna TL;DR immediately.

[An Anime Princess]

i read like 25% and then my eyes glazed over because it all sounded horribly unfun for someone who wants to play like a few hours a day (or less) and not take any of that rot into consideration, and this whole post was insanely preachy, wordy, and unrealistic. who the hell wants to play a stock stalker or something with some frankenstein fit because of ~~supply lines~~?

you said it yourself: your proposed changes would scare players away. who wants to be penalized for not owning enough mechs or shelling out money for dropship space? from the perspective of someone who never played a single mechwarrior title before this one: i don't care about any of it and the more barriers to shooting robots you put in front of me the less money i'm going to spend on this game because it's too much effort to get to the fun part of the game.

[Klappspaten]

I agree, TL,DR the **** out of this.

[YCSLiesmith]

I read it all. Don't be like me, friends.

[Alexander Steel]

Quote

In other words, Clan 'Mechs would be stock, and Inner Sphere 'Mechs might have some degree of customization, at least as far as front-line machines go.

Stopped reading at this point. The entire idea behind Omni-mechs were that they were more customizable than IS mechs, not the reverse.

[Tasker]

Some ideas presented in post are very good. Other ideas think not so good, but at least bring nice discussion.

However, presentation of ideas could use improvement. Post is long, and touch on several different subject. Suggest lay post out more clearly and condense some exposition.

Edited by Tasker, 26 February 2015 - 09:32 AM.

[990Dreams]

Stock and 12-v-10 would level the field quite a bit.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 26 February 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[Peiper]

Alexander Steel, on 26 February 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:

Stopped reading at this point. The entire idea behind Omni-mechs were that they were more customizable than IS mechs, not the reverse.

Let's rephrase that. Omnimechs could be configured on their dropships before battle from a certain number of very specific set options. Inner Sphere mechs were rarely modified, and never at the front. Yes, there were exceptions, but exceptions hardly make the rule.

I would be curious how true stock builds would work in this game. For them to work properly, though, some things must be changed. First would be the removal of ghost heat. Second, the numbers of clan mechs would probably have to be adjusted to balance out any Clan vs. IS fight. Third: because all mechs have double armor, all mechs would have to have double the stock ammo to make up for it. I guess you could double the standard number of rounds/missiles in a mech per ton from TT rules to simulate this change.

Or, the introduction of Battle Value could help rid us of the tonnage and customization debate. Clan mechs would have a higher battle value than IS mechs, and so there would be less of them. Some customized builds would be far more valuable than stock builds, and that would also be reflected in the numbers of mechs/tonnage available to a side. So, you could have some interesting battles with swarms of stock cicadas versus very few omnimechs, or have less powerful clan mechs equal in number a bunch of inner sphere assaults. Oh, why do I type here? Beatin' the dead horse again....

Edited by Peiper, 26 February 2015 - 10:30 AM.

[bobF]

How long will it take for people to understand that this game is a giant session of realtime Succession Wars (with Clans) and NOT a faithful reenactment of the lore? Ghost heat being removed for energy systems, quirks and soon more drop tonnage for IS, what will it take until you lore people are satisfied? When you have a magic Die, Clanner button that instagibs every scr and tbr in the match?

The thinly veiled whining disguised as "suggestions" is truly getting tiresome. You know what will happen if PGI makes IS mechs "better" in the name of "balance?" The comp players will play those mechs exclusively, and everyone that paid real world money will abandon the franchise. What's the point in spending dollars if everything gets nerfed because of a tiny minority of lore purists?

Let me answer for you: none at all. CW suffers from a current lack of depth, and mechanics that make the actual TT game of succession wars a deep and strategic one. Implementing things like factory worlds, resources, tech levels and the like will force players to fight for advantages, instead of play the forum game asking PGI to make arbitrary changes because some players want to ignore quirks or make whacky, non synchronous builds.

[General Pete]

The problem with 'stock only' is: most inner sphere mechs come stock with single heat sinks. When's the last time anyone tried to play a serious game on Terra Therma or even Caustic Valley with single heat sinks? Against Clan mechs?
I'm sure there are some guys out there doing this, but I will admit I am not one of them.

[An Anime Princess]

bobF, on 26 February 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

What's the point in spending dollars if everything gets nerfed because of a tiny minority of lore purists?

Let me answer for you: none at all. CW suffers from a current lack of depth, and mechanics that make the actual TT game of succession wars a deep and strategic one. Implementing things like factory worlds, resources, tech levels and the like will force players to fight for advantages, instead of play the forum game asking PGI to make arbitrary changes because some players want to ignore quirks or make whacky, non synchronous builds.

uhhh but bobf, check out this sweet stock build. it had 1 medium laser, 2 machineguns for anti-infantry, an ac10 and a prototype lrm1 with ten tons of ammo. i can feel the rich lore of this series seeping into me with every moment i stand on guard. maybe if you read some of these epic chronicles of battletech characters with me, you'd get enlightened *has since drowned an entire village in drool pooling at own feet*

[Davers]

bobF, on 26 February 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

How long will it take for people to understand that this game is a giant session of realtime Succession Wars (with Clans) and NOT a faithful reenactment of the lore? Ghost heat being removed for energy systems, quirks and soon more drop tonnage for IS, what will it take until you lore people are satisfied? When you have a magic Die, Clanner button that instagibs every scr and tbr in the match?

The thinly veiled whining disguised as "suggestions" is truly getting tiresome. You know what will happen if PGI makes IS mechs "better" in the name of "balance?" The comp players will play those mechs exclusively, and everyone that paid real world money will abandon the franchise. What's the point in spending dollars if everything gets nerfed because of a tiny minority of lore purists?

Let me answer for you: none at all. CW suffers from a current lack of depth, and mechanics that make the actual TT game of succession wars a deep and strategic one. Implementing things like factory worlds, resources, tech levels and the like will force players to fight for advantages, instead of play the forum game asking PGI to make arbitrary changes because some players want to ignore quirks or make whacky, non synchronous builds.

Talk to PGI then. They are the ones who are telling everyone that Clan mechs are better than IS mechs.

Nice to see you acknowledge all the comp players play Clan mechs. Because we know they never run what is best, right? Those darn comp players always running LRMs and LB-10Xs...

IS players spend money on the game too. I have spent money on every single package, with the exception of Clan Wave 2. Maybe all IS players should just quit until PGI says the game is balanced?

[bobF]

I play with a unit chock full of comp players, and we run victorious builds for both IS and Clan. We soundly win the vast majority of battles, against both Clan and IS.

How do you reconcile this gross discrepancy in your specious argument?

[Davers]

bobF, on 26 February 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

I play with a unit chock full of comp players, and we run victorious builds for both IS and Clan. We soundly win the vast majority of battles, against both Clan and IS.

How do you reconcile this gross discrepancy in your specious argument?

The question is, "How does PGI?" THEY are the ones you have to convince. Ask them to clarify their statement that Clans "Win, win, win, win some more, and win". Ask them why your successes in IS mechs don't seem to balance things out to them.

[bobF]

We did ask PGI. Clans have a 60% win rate, with an avg elo score 100-200 higher iirc than IS.

According to pgi's own metrics, IS will be getting various handicaps because they need to get gud.

It will accomplish mostly nothing, except benefit comp units even more in IS vs IS conflict. Comp units will still win, and bads will still demand more "balance." This happens in every PvP game mankind has developed.

Edited by bobF, 26 February 2015 - 05:34 PM.

[Davers]

bobF, on 26 February 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

We did ask PGI. Clans have a 60% win rate, with an avg elo score 100-200 higher iirc than IS.

According to pgi's own metrics, IS will be getting various handicaps because they need to get gud.

It will accomplish mostly nothing, except benefit comp units even more in IS vs IS conflict. Comp units will still win, and bads will still demand more "balance." This happens in every PvP game mankind has developed.

Well, so much for Esports, eh?

[YCSLiesmith]

bobF, on 26 February 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

I play with a unit chock full of comp players, and we run victorious builds for both IS and Clan. We soundly win the vast majority of battles, against both Clan and IS.

How do you reconcile this gross discrepancy in your specious argument?

Most people suck at this game.

[Wingbreaker]

YCSLiesmith, on 26 February 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

I read it all. Don't be like me, friends.

You poor fool. So, tl;dr?

DavidHurricane, on 26 February 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

Stock and 12-v-10 would level the field quite a bit.

Yes, let's watch the inner sphere burn even more quickly as 3/4ths of their mechs have horrendously bad armor values with nearly even front/rear splits.
Please. Please do that.

[An Anime Princess]

Wingbreaker, on 27 February 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

Yes, let's watch the inner sphere burn even more quickly as 3/4ths of their mechs have horrendously bad armor values with nearly even front/rear splits.

you just know like 25% of this game's population would eat that up and ask for seconds, unfortunately