43 replies to this topic

[Tyler Durden]

Sarlic, on 26 February 2015 - 01:48 AM, said:

It would be beautiful. Smoke, fire and melting metal.

Mmmm. I love a good shag carpet bomb.

[Tarogato]

Escef, on 26 February 2015 - 05:33 AM, said:

No, they totally block line of sight, you just still have line of effect. A blind man can still shoot you, his inability to see you simply makes it unlikely.

Ah, but he indeed can see you. You don't have to be able to see the mech, all you need to do is look for the little red triangle, press R, and shoot inside the big red box.

Here are five angles where you can't physically see the mechs, but you can still target them, despite complete concealment. So no, the leaves/canopy do not block line of sight at all. It would be really cool if they did, however.



What you're actually hitting and what actually does block line of sight, are the branches, which have wonky hitboxes:

Edited by Tarogato, 26 February 2015 - 06:06 AM.

[Reitrix]

Tarogato, on 26 February 2015 - 01:24 AM, said:

What if concealment ... was a thing in MWO?

If you're not familiar with the term, 'cover' absorbs the enemy’s fire, while 'concealment' simply visually obscures your position from the enemy. I'm talking about objects like trees and bushes, which are transparent objects in MWO, which could be used to break line of sight and targeting, but still be shot through. Possibly even larger clouds of smoke, as another example. World of Tanks has a decently sophisticated cover and concealment system, I think a much simpler version of that could be nice for MWO. Imagine, for instance, if parts of Alpine Peaks were coated in evergreens and all of them provided concealment against enemy targeting?
Go forth and discuss!

You realize people crank to minimum settings specifically to remove the trees we DO have, and use weird contrast/gamma settings to get around the Night Time lack of light in River City Night JUST to avoid the very thing you're trying to get into the game?

I agree with you, we need the ability to truly sneak up on people, using terrain other than mountainsides and hills. Lights could launch ambushes from forested areas, hit and runs etc.

But no, people will just jack the settings around until it removes all things not called 'Mechs or Walls/Floors.

[Fate 6]

Can you imagine Viridian with soft cover? holy moly.

[Tarogato]

Reitrix, on 26 February 2015 - 07:06 AM, said:

You realize people crank to minimum settings specifically to remove the trees we DO have, and use weird contrast/gamma settings to get around the Night Time lack of light in River City Night JUST to avoid the very thing you're trying to get into the game?
...
But no, people will just jack the settings around until it removes all things not called 'Mechs or Walls/Floors.

I play at minimum settings due to necessity. I still see plenty of trees and other assets that would be fair game for the type of mechanic I'm interested in. There could be be three types of 'cover' for MWO:

- Physical cover, which blocks sensor LoS and munitions. Forced visible at all video settings.
see that Atlas behind the building? Of course not, there's a building in the way and you can't shoot through it.
- Visual obstacles, which block sensor LoS but not munitions. Forced visible at all video settings.
see that flock of Firestarters swarming behind a line of pine trees? Of course not, they're concealed by the trees. But if you took a shot you might still hit one if you happened to already know that they'd be there.
- Aesthetic clutter, which block neither sensors nor munitions. Eliminated/immensely simplified at low settings.
see that Hunchback poking around that sparse brush? Yeah, and I can shoot him too because he's revealed.

Objects that fall under the first two categories would be unable to be removed via any settings or tweaks/modding/cfgs.

I don't see how night time is related to the topic though. At night, you can't see with your eyes because it's dark, but there's nothing between you and enemy mechs to obstruct vision anyways. The enemies, if in the open, even at a distance, are not concealed.

Fate 6, on 26 February 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

Can you imagine Viridian with soft cover? holy moly.

Yes, it would be quite like real life, wouldn't it? Actually challenging, and engaging. =]

Edited by Tarogato, 26 February 2015 - 07:46 AM.

[Ens]

best thing would be like a camouflage-system like in WoT....where tanks magically turn invisible, right in front of your eyes

[DaZur]

I dunno, I'm not convinced destructible environments is what MW:O needs.

We already have issue with players playing as a team toward a common goal or half the team chasing squirrels...

You add destructible environments and we'll have players mentally MIA as they laser in their initials on the side of a hill for the first half of matches or pretending to be repressed pyromaniacs, running around and sparking anything that will ignite.

ADD and MW:O does not mix well...

Edited by DaZur, 26 February 2015 - 11:51 AM.

[Trashhead]

El Bandito, on 26 February 2015 - 01:46 AM, said:

Sure, and I am all over for destructible trees and foliage that can block shots/missiles. Perhaps Flamers can ignite the said trees and cause forest fires and overheat every mech inside it, MUAHAHAHAHAHA!


One can only dream...

That would be an INTELLIGENT way of giving the Flamer the role it actually had in the TableTop game.
Therefor it will never happen, ever.

But i like the idea very much.

[Escef]

Tarogato, on 26 February 2015 - 06:02 AM, said:

Here are five angles where you can't physically see the mechs, but you can still target them, despite complete concealment. So no, the leaves/canopy do not block line of sight at all. It would be really cool if they did, however.

You can't see them because your line of sight is blocked, but you have line of sight? Doesn't that sound kinda'... I dunno... Stupid?

We aren't talking about the same kind of LoS you'd use in table top gaming here.

[Dock Steward]

Escef, on 26 February 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:

You can't see them because your line of sight is blocked, but you have line of sight? Doesn't that sound kinda'... I dunno... Stupid?

We aren't talking about the same kind of LoS you'd use in table top gaming here.

In Tarogato's example, even though you can't see the enemy (No LoS), the game actually gives you LoS by allowing you to target the enemy and get the big red targeting box. So yeah, you can't see them but you actually do have LoS (clear shot to target).

[Escef]

Dock Steward, on 26 February 2015 - 05:52 PM, said:

In Tarogato's example, even though you can't see the enemy (No LoS), the game actually gives you LoS by allowing you to target the enemy and get the big red targeting box. So yeah, you can't see them but you actually do have LoS (clear shot to target).

You have Line of Effect, not Sight. Scanners work fine, weapons fire isn't blocked. But you have no visual of the target.

[Dock Steward]

Escef, on 26 February 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

You have Line of Effect, not Sight. Scanners work fine, weapons fire isn't blocked. But you have no visual of the target.

True. In strictest terms, you don't have a line of sight (at least not until you switch to heat vision), but your weapons have line of sight. If you want to call that "Line of Effect," then fine, I'm not going to argue over word choice. Fact remains, the OP wants to have something that doesn't allow targeting, like we can do now, but that can be shot through blindly. Personally, I'm not sure what benefit such a thing would bring.

[ThrashInc]

zagibu, on 26 February 2015 - 03:20 AM, said:

Bushes and trees could actually be somewhat effective at blocking laser fire. The focused beam would get dispersed by the particles (although the heat would simply burn it away, so it should be destructible I guess).

While I would love a Frostbite type engine for a game like this, to implement things like trees blocking damage PGI would have to address the fact that in reality your DOT lasers would do significantly less damage than a pulse laser. Obviously pulses do more damage as it is, but not enough.

This has to do with how a laser that burns a constant stream is degraded by matter it burns up blocking its point of impact.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

I like hiding in the trees in Caustic Valley. They don't provide much cover, or concealment, but you can blend in and take potshots if you're a brown colored light.

The game needs more of that. And less maps where the whole point is fighting over the same hill.

[Macksheen]

El Bandito, on 26 February 2015 - 01:46 AM, said:

Sure, and I am all over for destructible trees and foliage that can block shots/missiles. Perhaps Flamers can ignite the said trees and cause forest fires and overheat every mech inside it, MUAHAHAHAHAHA!


One can only dream...

I would love to set the town in Crimson Strait on fire. And what's that Frozen City? You want a thaw?

[Tarogato]

DaZur, on 26 February 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

I dunno, I'm not convinced destructible environments is what MW:O needs. ... ADD and MW:O does not mix well...

Hmmm, we're not talking about destructible environments here, so you're right about the ADD part.

Escef, on 26 February 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:

You can't see them because your line of sight is blocked, but you have line of sight? Doesn't that sound kinda'... I dunno... Stupid?

We aren't talking about the same kind of LoS you'd use in table top gaming here.

Dock Steward, on 26 February 2015 - 05:52 PM, said:

In Tarogato's example, even though you can't see the enemy (No LoS), the game actually gives you LoS by allowing you to target the enemy and get the big red targeting box. So yeah, you can't see them but you actually do have LoS (clear shot to target).

Ahh, so, clearly again we're fighting the terminology here, because I'm not particularly well versed in the area. So, for my benefit,

1- If you can see the mech (and shoot it) = line of sight
2- If you can't see the mech, but you can shoot the mech = line of effect
3- If you can't see the mech, but your sensors show you that it's there and you can shoot it = ... ... line of sight? line of effect? Something else?

Dock Steward, on 26 February 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

True. In strictest terms, you don't have a line of sight (at least not until you switch to heat vision), but your weapons have line of sight. If you want to call that "Line of Effect," then fine, I'm not going to argue over word choice. Fact remains, the OP wants to have something that doesn't allow targeting, like we can do now, but that can be shot through blindly. Personally, I'm not sure what benefit such a thing would bring.

The problem is, heat vision doesn't let you see through foliage in MWO, it just makes it easier to catch a glimpse of a mech when it isn't behind foliage. So what we have is some bastardisation of true line of sight and true line of effect. I mean, you can't see the mech at all, but your sensors say "hey, there's a mech here, here's a red box" and if you shoot in the red box, you're not shooting blind, you know exactly where the mech is based on your past experience with red boxes. So I'd call it line of sight (again, as long as what you got was a hollow triangle before targeting, which means that you are not relying on somebody else spotting that target for you).

Personally, I don't think the environments lush enough to justify having this concealment mechanic added, but I'd like to see more foliage added to certain maps so that it were justifiable. Parts of Caustic, the island or perhaps mountain on Crimson, majority of Alpine, parts of Boreal, Forest Colony (like please, more "Forest"?)... Canyon Network could even have the watery areas more sprung with life.

[Impossible Wasabi]

Please, nothing as gamey as WoT, where you are "magically" made invisible based on stats and positioning.

Maps with enough cover/foliage/etc. to allow concealment would be fun however. The Space Pope has often wished he could set his mechs to use map plausible camouflage (i.e. if would want to be able to check a box and then get arctic camouflage on Alpine, Desert camouflage on Canyon Network, etc.).

[LordSkippy]

El Bandito, on 26 February 2015 - 01:46 AM, said:

Sure, and I am all over for destructible trees and foliage that can block shots/missiles. Perhaps Flamers can ignite the said trees and cause forest fires and overheat every mech inside it, MUAHAHAHAHAHA!


One can only dream...

That would make the bog more interesting.

[Aethon]

MeiSooHaityu, on 26 February 2015 - 02:50 AM, said:

The game does have soft cover, your team mates .

I am standing behind the desk trying to look busy, and you made me bust out laughing. Well done, sir, lol.

[Dock Steward]

Tarogato, on 27 February 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

The problem is, heat vision doesn't let you see through foliage in MWO,

Umm...I'm pretty sure it does. Am I wrong here? Now I don't know what's true...