38 replies to this topic

[Wildstreak]

Have not been using minis for some time, why did they change from Ral Partha?
Old Centurion seen in gold & blue.

[Dakkaface]

Marack Drock, on 09 March 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

BT is effectively dead as a board game, but miniature role playing games are still going strong:
D&D
LotR:RPG
Warhammer 40k
Shadowrun is rebooted

just to name a few are all board games getting a comeback or have never been dwindling. These games are very active still.

This statement is rather innacurate and seems rather ignorant of tabletop games in general.

Battletech, along with both flavors of Warhammer and Games Workshop's LotR game are minatures games, wargames specifically.

D&D in it's current form, and Shadowrun are RPG's and require no miniatures. (There have been a few D&D miniatures games - they are separate from D&D proper though.)

Boardgames are self contained - they contain everything you need to play in a single box, and while they may have expansions or additional content to add, you do not need and are not expected to get this content to enjoy the game.

Miniatures games may provide an 'everything you need' intro box, but they aren't board games and you are expected to buy additional figures, rules and expansions to get the most out of the game.

Frankly, all miniatures games have been expanding to some degree with the exception of Warhammer, which has been holding relatively strong, but has been losing it's stranglehold on the hobby and hemorrhaging players into other games. Alpha Strike rules were released not too long ago and are much more palatable to people familiar with other games, and as a side benefit, require more minis as the scale of the conflict is larger. Plus, as the parlance in the tabletop world goes - a game isn't dead until the company stops supporting it or bringing out new content. And Catalyst is still printing new stuff.

Really, despite the fact that it would bother untold grognards, tCatalyst needs to redo the rules so that they aren't dependent on memorizing a billion tables. The random tables school of design was popular in the eighties, but these days people like more controlled probability and resource management in their games. Alpha Strike is a good first step.

[Metus regem]

Dakkaface, on 10 March 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

This statement is rather innacurate and seems rather ignorant of tabletop games in general.

Battletech, along with both flavors of Warhammer and Games Workshop's LotR game are minatures games, wargames specifically.

D&D in it's current form, and Shadowrun are RPG's and require no miniatures. (There have been a few D&D miniatures games - they are separate from D&D proper though.)

Boardgames are self contained - they contain everything you need to play in a single box, and while they may have expansions or additional content to add, you do not need and are not expected to get this content to enjoy the game.

Miniatures games may provide an 'everything you need' intro box, but they aren't board games and you are expected to buy additional figures, rules and expansions to get the most out of the game.

Frankly, all miniatures games have been expanding to some degree with the exception of Warhammer, which has been holding relatively strong, but has been losing it's stranglehold on the hobby and hemorrhaging players into other games. Alpha Strike rules were released not too long ago and are much more palatable to people familiar with other games, and as a side benefit, require more minis as the scale of the conflict is larger. Plus, as the parlance in the tabletop world goes - a game isn't dead until the company stops supporting it or bringing out new content. And Catalyst is still printing new stuff.

Really, despite the fact that it would bother untold grognards, tCatalyst needs to redo the rules so that they aren't dependent on memorizing a billion tables. The random tables school of design was popular in the eighties, but these days people like more controlled probability and resource management in their games. Alpha Strike is a good first step.

With some of the shake ups at GWHQ, more icy receptions of newer editions, ever increasing price hikes, and less than understandable regional price fixing, I'm sure that in some way or another GW is 'cooking' their books. I know that they have been showing more growth, but I don't know anyone locally that still plays Fantasy or 40k, hell I've got a large collection of 40k that I want to unload on the cheap, as I don't play it, and am having problems finding buyers for it... as it stands they are more than likely bound for the recycling bin soon....

[Dakkaface]

Metus regem, on 10 March 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

With some of the shake ups at GWHQ, more icy receptions of newer editions, ever increasing price hikes, and less than understandable regional price fixing, I'm sure that in some way or another GW is 'cooking' their books. I know that they have been showing more growth, but I don't know anyone locally that still plays Fantasy or 40k, hell I've got a large collection of 40k that I want to unload on the cheap, as I don't play it, and am having problems finding buyers for it... as it stands they are more than likely bound for the recycling bin soon....

Ah, GW, my old bugbear. I've been out for 4 years now, but watching it collapse in slow motion is still an interesting hobby.

GW has been subsisting by cannibalizing their own customer base, licensing their IP quite freely, and bone deep cost-cutting. It's not so much 'cooking the books' as 'destroying long term profits and longevity at the expense of looking good short term.' Their strategy since the early-mid 00's was to churn and burn. Kids come in, buy a complete army, then get out within a couple years. No effort is spent to retain these player losses, because veteran players have already purchased a full army and generate minimal income through small box purchases and army updates. Additionally, back in the early 00's, an annual price raise was instituted. But since the prices continue to rise every year and have been for some 15 years now, they've priced themselves out of the ability to depend on churn and burn. Every year fewer players join and they cover the losses by raising prices. They've also let an unprecidented number of outside firms handle their IP for various side games, PC, console and mobile games. This is basically free money for them. Additionally since the early 00's they've cut a HUGE number of stores down to a single staff member, saving them on wages but drastically impacting the ability of the stores to simultaneously run demos and sell product.

Their strategy is unsustainable, but frankly it doesn't matter to them. The board is all ready to sail away on golden parachutes and let the company implode. 1d4chan has a fairly comprehensive analysis on it, if you can stomach strong language.

Edited by Dakkaface, 10 March 2015 - 03:15 PM.

[Metus regem]

Dakkaface, on 10 March 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

Ah, GW, my old bugbear. I've been out for 4 years now, but watching it collapse in slow motion is still an interesting hobby.

GW has been subsisting by cannibalizing their own customer base, licensing their IP quite freely, and bone deep cost-cutting. It's not so much 'cooking the books' as 'destroying long term profits and longevity at the expense of looking good short term.' Their strategy since the early-mid 00's was to churn and burn. Kids come in, buy a complete army, then get out within a couple years. No effort is spent to retain these player losses, because veteran players have already purchased a full army and generate minimal income through small box purchases and army updates. Additionally, back in the early 00's, an annual price raise was instituted. But since the prices continue to rise every year and have been for some 15 years now, they've priced themselves out of the ability to depend on churn and burn. Every year fewer players join and they cover the losses by raising prices. They've also let an unprecidented number of outside firms handle their IP for various side games, PC, console and mobile games. This is basically free money for them. Additionally since the early 00's they've cut a HUGE number of stores down to a single staff member, saving them on wages but drastically impacting the ability of the stores to simultaneously run demos and sell product.

Their strategy is unsustainable, but frankly it doesn't matter to them. The board is all ready to sail away on golden parachutes and let the company implode. 1d4chan has a fairly comprehensive analysis on it, if you can stomach strong language.

One of the big nails in the coffin for me, was when it became cheaper for me to buy Forge World, then 'normal' 40k mins... My entire Imperial Guard Air Cav, is all FW models...

But that churn and burn is killing them, not to mention the whole chapter house thing....

[AkoolPopTart]

The MWO ones are good for video games, but there is too much detail to make them into miniatures. I actually like the old designs (Iron Wind Metals designs that is) because they are based on the original concept art. Plus, with IWM miniatures, you can customize them. I've seen a number of games on youtube were guys have Vultures with Warhammer arms because their Vulture runs a pair of PPC's instead of lasers.

[kosmos1214]

on that note how hard is kit bashing iron winds minis????

[AkoolPopTart]

kosmos1214, on 14 March 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

kit bashing

Eh?
Oh you mean customization? Not hard.

Edited by AkoolPopTart, 15 March 2015 - 05:59 AM.

[Dakkaface]

AkoolPopTart, on 15 March 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

Eh?
Oh you mean customization? Not hard.

Kitbashing is anytime you mix and match bits from different models to make what you need - i.e. you bash bits together from different model kits.

kosmos1214, on 14 March 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

on that note how hard is kit bashing iron winds minis????

It's a bit more of a chore than I'd like on IWM stuff because it's pewter and the scale is pretty small, but if you have some hobby experience from other games or just model kits in general it's not hard. LRMs are actually pretty easy to make with scraps from other models. Just drill out holes in boxy things, or put a layer of green stuff over the torso area for the launcher and drill holes in it after it's leather-hard.

[AkoolPopTart]

Dakkaface, on 19 March 2015 - 06:31 PM, said:

Snip

I figured. Its apparently not hard

[kosmos1214]

AkoolPopTart, on 15 March 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

Eh?
Oh you mean customization? Not hard.

Dakkaface, on 19 March 2015 - 06:31 PM, said:

Kitbashing is anytime you mix and match bits from different models to make what you need - i.e. you bash bits together from different model kits.


It's a bit more of a chore than I'd like on IWM stuff because it's pewter and the scale is pretty small, but if you have some hobby experience from other games or just model kits in general it's not hard. LRMs are actually pretty easy to make with scraps from other models. Just drill out holes in boxy things, or put a layer of green stuff over the torso area for the launcher and drill holes in it after it's leather-hard.

AkoolPopTart, on 20 March 2015 - 05:41 AM, said:

I figured. Its apparently not hard

ah ok thanks as i have no experience with modeling sense getting in to bt any tips that would help?

[Dakkaface]

kosmos1214, on 21 March 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

ah ok thanks as i have no experience with modeling sense getting in to bt any tips that would help?

For IWM and other pewter minis, get some form of superglue. I like Gorilla Glue because it has a little more sideways strength than standard cyanoacrylate, but you may find you prefer a different brand. You will want some Kneadatite Blue-Yellow, also known as 'green stuff.' This is used to fill gaps, fix mold mistakes, and let you do your own molding for model edits. Buy it from hardware stores or online. Keep it wet and any toold you're using to work with it wet.

Super glue has a strong bond but is very weak to sheer forces - it holds strong if you're trying to pull it directly apart but will snap easily if twisted or struck sidelong. To counter this tendency, pin your models. Here's a decent guide on the process.

When you paint, make sure you have model paints - regular acrylics are too thick and opaque. Thin the paints with some water, and always remember that the paints are designed to let light through them from below, so layering is how you build up color, and you can tint the top layers of paints with the undercoats.

[Vanguard319]

Vassago Rain, on 27 February 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

In order to afford injection moulds, you need money.
It costs hundreds of thousands, to millions, of dollars to setup your own workshop, and outsourcing to China is still not really cheap. Since CBT is pretty much a dead game, well...

Dude, we live in the age of rapid prototyping, and 3d printing gets better in both resolution and price by the day. you could print a blank from a material with a low melting point, then use that blank to create a reusable mold via traditional lost-wax casting.

[S3dition]

Metus regem, on 27 February 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

Okay let me put it to you this way, I have my red seal as a machinest (not that I ever use it anymore), to make one mould, I could spend anywhere between a week, and six months working on it, depending on the amount of detail you want in it, and at 40h/week with a pay between $30-$50/hour depending on where you are located, that adds up to a lot of money, and hat's just for one minature.

3D printers are an option, but the commericaly available models do not have the level of detail that people from MWO are going to want in their models, after seeing MWO mechs, so that means an industrial 3D printer, and those cost ALOT of money. On top of that, you are going to have to pay a machinest or mechanical engineer to put the model files from MWO into CAD/CAM software for the 3D printer to know what it is going to make, and that takes time, and time is money. Now if you get your 3D printed model, you can use that to make a mould from, but the process will be slow, and chew up time.

So for new minatures, Catalyst game labs, has to decied if it is worth the cost to pull the trigger on getting new models made for a TT game, that lets be totaly honest, isn't their bread and butter line.

Do I think that if they were to market it better in game stores, and at Con's, would it do better? I'd like to think so. I just think it's in a strange place right now, not profitable enough for them to pull the trigger on a big expendature of new models, and the lack of new models might be one of the things hurting the sales. But I think the big thing hurting the sales, is outside of a core fan base, not many people know about it.

That's incorrect. Everyone has access to high detail 3d printing:







These had insanely good detail and it's a simple matter of producing the design, uploading, and ordering.

The real reason is that there is no money to be made from doing it. There are too many companies that take a bite of the profit so nobody wants to risk the investment. Someone would have to buyout the rights entirely.

[andrewkhlim]

Always an option if you have money to drop: thorsmechworks.wordpress.com

[Mazzyplz]

couldn't you just 3d print mwo models in that scale to play with? as in, privately - not selling them.

edit:

checked out the website above; wow!
this looks SO sweet

https://thorsmechwor...2014/12/aw2.jpg


looks like it's articulated too!

i'd like a version with a removable ams pod

Edited by Mazzyplz, 30 May 2015 - 08:48 PM.

[SnagaDance]

First up a big thumbs up to Dakkaface for his many excellent posts on this subject. It may seem simple to make more/new miniatures but the various forces behind it are really complex (and yes 'the bottom line is always money).

Something I myself haven't seen adressed yet but those kickstarters that were linked to? Remember that the pics shown there are really CAD designs, made to look like plastic by some good color use and shading. They are not the actual final product. In the best case the miniatures shown in these kind of kickstarters are high quality prototypes, with no guarantee that the finished product will look the same. The pics looks super great but that's because you're looking at computer graphics, keep that in mind.

Marack Drock, on 10 March 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Sorry for just rolling D&D and all the others together into one single clump. I haven't played it before, but every picture and video I have ever seen they use miniatures.

...

I called D&D and Shadowrun miniature RPG because I have only ever seen them played with Miniatures. I am a little ignorant but from what I have seen there is still a bit of a market of these games.

D&D and Shadowrun may use miniatures to help play out combat. Its what my friends and I do for our own roleplaying campaigns for instance.
A player normally only controls a single character though, and this character may go through a campaign that lasts for years! So that's basically only 1 miniature needed/player for x years. And in the case of fantasy miniatures the choice in minis from all those different manufacturers is so incredibly vast that players tend to pick the mini they find best represent their character's look, regardless of manufacturer.
One friend uses an old LOTR miniature for his elven archer for instance, while I personally converted my barbarian from Warhammer Fantasy Chaos Marauder parts (plus some more bitz), while the rest of those Marauders became a Mordheim Pitfighter warband because I don't even play Chaos. D&D never made a cent out of those minis.

Now the game master may want a host of miniatures to represent the baddies but I have never personally known a GM that want to own any monster-mini that he wants to use in game. The amounts and variety needed would be just insane! So most do like I do myself, stand in miniatures. So I've got a group of old Heroquest monsters to represent most bad guys, with a sprinkling of old metal minis for variety's sake. That's what's worked these last 20+ years, I guess it will work until I'm dead really.