16 replies to this topic

[XBARTX99]

How should I distribute armor in the torsos, specifically by each class? What should each weight class have in the rear center and side torsos?

[Koniving]

XBARTX99, on 27 February 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

How should I distribute armor in the torsos, specifically by each class? What should each weight class have in the rear center and side torsos?

This is a 100% chassis-dependent question. There is no general "one size fits all."

Well maybe "12 rear, rest front".

For example, the Firestarter and Raven are mechs with hitboxes built in such a way that you can do 2 rear armor, the rest to the front, and be nearly invincible. The Jenner can only do this for the CT (Center torso) but not the STs (side torsos).
Firestarter.

Raven

Jenner (Of what is purple, while it is true that the rear CT is fairly large, it is almost impossible to hit except from directly behind due to the shape of the body and the extreme torso twist the Jenner is capable of in MWO [which I find comical, as the Jenner is supposed to be a no-twist mech in BT]).


Now, the Orion, Victor, Highlander, or Awesome however if you tried that, you'd die in 3 seconds or less once anything got behind you. Thunderbolt too.
Orion (I wish they did a side view; because of the way it is split along the right side, you actually want more rear right armor if you're a twist-to-spread-damage type of player. The left side you want more to the front due to the way it's split in favor of the front from front to back).

Victor, the only real reason you need front CT armor is because of LRMs [they all hit the physical 'head' of the mech more than anywhere else]. That and pelvis shots.

Highlander (You need high armor on both front and rear!)

Awesome, check out those rear side torsos!


For the Blackjack you want the CT rear to have a high amount of armor, while the STs rears should have almost none (as your front STs are big, but your rear CT is HUGE while the front CT isn't all that big).
Blackjack
Correction, it seems the blackjack hitboxes had changed from when it first released.


Commando is still that boat, however. Need lots more rear CT armor.

Edited by Koniving, 27 February 2015 - 02:08 PM.

[XBARTX99]

Koniving, on 27 February 2015 - 01:57 PM, said:

This is a 100% chassis-dependent question. There is no general "one size fits all."

Well maybe "12 rear, rest front".

For example, the Firestarter and Raven are mechs with hitboxes built in such a way that you can do 2 rear armor, the rest to the front, and be nearly invincible. The Jenner can only do this for the CT (Center torso) but not the STs (side torsos).

Now, the Orion, Victor, Highlander, or Awesome however if you tried that, you'd die in 3 seconds or less once anything got behind you. Thunderbolt too.

For the Blackjack you want the CT rear to have a high amount of armor, while the STs rears should have almost none (as your front STs are big, but your rear CT is HUGE while the front CT isn't all that big).

So I should look at the hit boxes for each chassis and go from there. Surely there's an average per class though, right?

[aniviron]

XBARTX99, on 27 February 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

So I should look at the hit boxes for each chassis and go from there. Surely there's an average per class though, right?

A good starting place is 6-10 rear armor; then adjust it upwards or downwards based on how often a certain component gets shot in the back.

A thought experiment: If you were in control of both the hitboxes for your mech as well as the armor split, what would be the ideal setup? Evenly split isn't so great- it means you have a chance of getting killed with half your armor still there. As you make the back progressively smaller, you can remove armor from it while the chances of it taking a hit go down, until you are 100% front armor, with no rear hitbox at all; this means that every time you die, you forced an opponent to go through 100% of your armor to kill you, making you more durable.

Obviously, we're not in control of the hitboxes absolutely, but through torso twisting and smart positioning, you have more control than you might imagine. If you can get away with having ~2 rear armor and aren't dying to shots from behind, then do it. It just means that when you are dying, you're taking a lot longer to kill, meaning you get to shoot for longer, and your teammates are getting shot less, your enemies build more heat and have less ammo.

I tend to have very thin rear armor, and I'd guess that maybe one in twenty games, around five percent or less of the time, I take a double gauss or an AC20 to the back and lose a side torso I wouldn't have lost with better rear armor. On the other hand, about a third of the games I play that front armor saves my life, giving me enough health to make it through to the end of the game when having another 10-20 points in back means I'd have been dead. That seems like an excellent tradeoff.

So yeah, cut your rear armor thin, and then adjust it as needed, based on your piloting and the mech's hitboxes.

[Koniving]

XBARTX99, on 27 February 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

So I should look at the hit boxes for each chassis and go from there. Surely there's an average per class though, right?

Yep. http://mwomercs.com/...x-localization/

Here's what is generally best.
If it's Inner Sphere, then 12 to 14 rear armor for most mechs. Exceptions being most lights. For assault mechs, 20 to 30 is usually a fantastic idea (for non-XL assaults of 85 tons or more) if you wanna tank like this.

If it's Clan, on everything non-heavy/assault-humanoid (so excluding the Summoner, Gargoyle, Hellbringer and upcoming Executioner)... then 2 rear armor, everything else to the front.
(Almost forgot; don't do 2 rear armor on Warhawk or Dire Wolf either; uber bad idea unless you're fighting long range only).

Last edit.

Edited by Koniving, 27 February 2015 - 02:16 PM.

[Tim East]

I run with 4 across the board on my Locust and often find that I use it all but don't die. That seems like optimal balance, though there are those moments when you take a friendly AC20 round to a rear ST...

[Rogue Jedi]

I specialize in Lights, while I play Mediums and fast heavies fairly frequently but do not usualy like Assualts, they are just too sluggish.
I spend probably half my time ingame piloting Lights, for a while I was going massively front loaded armor on most Mechs, but I kept getting one hit killed about 1 game in 10, not that frequently but enough to be annoying, these days I where possible make sure I can survive at least an AC20 hit to any part of the Mech, this means structure + armor to all 6 torso hit boxes, both legs and the head must be at least 21, all Mechs have 18 structure on the head and head shots are do not happen very often so for Lights especially you can afford to take the Head to 3 points of armor if you need to save weight.

it is not possible to put that level of armor on the the 20 ton Locust, becuase maximum combined armor + structure for side torsos is 30, if you armor front and back to 20 while carrying an XL engine you would die from an AC20 hit to any side torso hitbox.
the 25 tonners get 9 on the rear sides + 12 structure = 21 hitpoints, 5 on the CT + 16 structure
the 30 tonners get 7 on the rear sides and center (but 1 on the center would be enough by my rules)
the 35 ton or heavier Mechs can survive an AC20 to the CT with no extra armor so only need 1 point of armor (so the back shows as armored when the enemy target you), the 35s have 16 structure on the sides so 5 armor is enough

[John80sk]

Most better players will run 4-10 back armor on most mechs. Generally the heavier the mech the less back armor you need if you ask me (as you've got more internal structure). Preference does come into this though, and your results may vary. My advice to a new player would be to start at 10 and add/subtract based on how often you're dying to back shots before your front is open.

[Fobhopper]

I cant comment on light or medium mechs, because I dont play them all that often, and not particularly good at them, But heavies and assaults. you want roughly 20-24 at a minimum on all your rear armor, possibly even more depending on the mech. Heavies and assaults take a serious beating from both LRM's and light ankle biters, so having 20+ armor on the rear is necessary.

[YCSLiesmith]

XBARTX99, on 27 February 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

How should I distribute armor in the torsos, specifically by each class? What should each weight class have in the rear center and side torsos?

the better you are, the less rear armor you want. I roll with 6 on everything but my firestarter A, because that guy spends a lot of time running away. if you're super new you might want 10 or 12, maybe. the thing is, if you're in a group of other mechs and you've got decent players and make sure to face the enemy, you're not gonna spend much time getting shot in the back. much smarter to put it all in the front so you can take a hit or two.

I wouldn't go less than 6 because you might get killed by an airstrike or a turret and thats a pain.

[Tim East]

John80sk, on 27 February 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Most better players will run 4-10 back armor on most mechs. Generally the heavier the mech the less back armor you need if you ask me (as you've got more internal structure). Preference does come into this though, and your results may vary. My advice to a new player would be to start at 10 and add/subtract based on how often you're dying to back shots before your front is open.

YCSLiesmith, on 27 February 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

the better you are, the less rear armor you want. I roll with 6 on everything but my firestarter A, because that guy spends a lot of time running away. if you're super new you might want 10 or 12, maybe. the thing is, if you're in a group of other mechs and you've got decent players and make sure to face the enemy, you're not gonna spend much time getting shot in the back. much smarter to put it all in the front so you can take a hit or two.

I wouldn't go less than 6 because you might get killed by an airstrike or a turret and thats a pain.

Better stick with your friends if you're going to go that light. And don't overheat/shutdown. My Locust got an easy kill on HPG because a Timby shut down right in front of me. Two zaps to the back and he was done.

[jaxjace]

Im weird in that i always run at least a gauss rounds worth in my rear. that means i wont be able to take as much from the front but i can twist and escape the firefight to alpha another day. Mostly though, i dont like getting gaussed in the back and insta killed.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Lights: 6 low. 8 common. 12 highest. Rear CT is ~ +2. Depends on mech involved. Tweak to your experience.
Mediums: Add 2 to the above. Tweak.
Heavies: Add 2-4 more. Tweak.
Assaults: Add another 5-8 probably. Tweak. So at this point you might have 15 - 20 - 26. RCT is + 4-8.

Those would be my ballpark numbers.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 28 February 2015 - 02:10 AM.

[HlynkaCG]

XBARTX99, on 27 February 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

So I should look at the hit boxes for each chassis and go from there. Surely there's an average per class though, right?

I would say that 6 - 12 rear, rest front is a solid rule of thumb, you'll want a bit more on assaults 16 - 20 maybe to ward off back-stabbers but beyond that stick to the above.

[YCSLiesmith]

Tim East, on 27 February 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

Better stick with your friends if you're going to go that light. And don't overheat/shutdown. My Locust got an easy kill on HPG because a Timby shut down right in front of me. Two zaps to the back and he was done.

you're unlikely to take me from unharmed to dead in one shutdown, and anyway more armor won't really help if you're behind me and i'm motionless.

lately I've been playing in 'hardcore mode' which is immediately turning on override and never shutting it off. i wouldn't recommend it for competitive games obviously but it does teach you to manage heat.

[Tim East]

YCSLiesmith, on 28 February 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

you're unlikely to take me from unharmed to dead in one shutdown, and anyway more armor won't really help if you're behind me and i'm motionless.

lately I've been playing in 'hardcore mode' which is immediately turning on override and never shutting it off. i wouldn't recommend it for competitive games obviously but it does teach you to manage heat.

Well, the former depends on your armor distribution, what you're driving, how damaged you already are, and what I try to do to you. I've had good luck with head-shotting the overheated though.

The latter, I love. A warrior after my own style of reckless offence.

[John80sk]

Tim East, on 27 February 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

Better stick with your friends if you're going to go that light. And don't overheat/shutdown. My Locust got an easy kill on HPG because a Timby shut down right in front of me. Two zaps to the back and he was done.

You might think that, but this is a % thing. When you die 9/10 times to front shots, it makes more sense to maximize your front armor. On top of that if you die to a back shot while your front is already open, obviously additional back armor wouldn't have done you any good anyways.

Second, if anything overheats in front of something with over a 33 point alpha, you might as well expect to lose your cockpit to any half decent player anyways.

Lastly, if you're not sticking with your friends in a match in a heavy or assault, you're doing it wrong. If you're in a medium and not in a position where you can quickly return to your friends you're probably doing it wrong (and you shouldn't have any trouble with lights in a medium anyways). If you let something unload two full alpha's into a single back component you're doing it wrong. Do it right, and you don't need a lot of back armor.

10 back armor is frankly a lot, and something I only really put on 50t and under XL builds. Anything bigger and you have a chance to respond to anything hitting your back before it kills you.