19 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

Okay PGI...

While I understand and appreciate the reason "why"... I'm not exactly thrilled with new map content for CW while solo remains stagnant.

While I don't expect "new" map releases for solo, I would expect new CW maps to also be offered as solo maps.

You are effectively disenfranchising your soloists in an effort to promote CW. Which is a logical veiled motivator... Just a little tacky tactics IMHO.

Make CW more inviting, lucrative and as easy to access as solo and the player-base will naturally transition to it without the unnecessary de-incentification of solo play.

Just my observation and unsolicited advise.

[Chagatay]

DaZur, on 03 March 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

Okay PGI...

While I understand and appreciate the reason "why"... I'm not exactly thrilled with new map content for CW while solo remains stagnant.

While I don't expect "new" map releases for solo, I would expect new CW maps to also be offered as solo maps.

You are effectively disenfranchising your soloists in an effort to promote CW. Which is a logical veiled motivator... Just a little tacky tactics IMHO.

Make CW more inviting, lucrative and as easy to access as solo and the player-base will naturally transition to it without the unnecessary de-incentification of solo play.

Just my observation and unsolicited advise.

As far as I am aware most of the CW maps are using assets from existing maps. The next map for CW for instance uses the HPG manifold map set. Creation from existing developed assets is much, much faster, and less expensive.

That being said, I have been less impressed with the latest non-CW maps. Bog is very small and tactically limited. Mining collective is also rather small, offers a few more strategies, but sadly crashed all the time for me on my nvidia graphics card. Hopefully we see some more stuff. I would love environmental hazards, destructable terrain, watery maps where you can submerge most of your mech, and all sorts of stuff.

Possible ideas:

Hydrodam : Massive terrain much like Forest colony, Has a river with multiple crossways feeding a big pond/reservoir in the middle to edge of the map (note fighting in the middle is very difficult) which is deep enough to fully submerge your mechs. Has a current that your mech must fight against if you are in the pond/river that gets stronger near the dam. If you get too close to the dam intake you are sucked in and well.......

Lunar colony: Ultra-low gravity fighting. Rolling hills, craters, caverns, etc. Using JJs too much sends you off the rock so to speak and out-of-bounds.

Subterranean caverns: A twisted labyrinth of doom awaits you in the tunnels. At no point are the tunnels big enough to support more than a lance width of mechs, smaller tunnels allow lighter or shorter mechs (finally nova can shine) to navigate shortcuts and ambush spots. Certain parts of the cavern have running water that is leg actuator high for better cooling. Art/Air/UAV not available for use on this map.

Edited by Chagatay, 03 March 2015 - 11:01 AM.

[lsp]

Meh.

[Deathlike]

CW needs more maps immediately... so I can't fault them for that.

However, what kind of map that differences from all the existing stuff is needed at this point? I'm not saying it should be the end of the line for non-CW maps, but apparently non-CW type of maps take more time than reusing existing stuff for the CW maps.

[Corbenik]

Even if Pug got a new map they will QQ anyways, no matter how many maps come out if it doesn't suit the taste of certain members they will QQ that they want another one and it repeats, glad CW is getting its maps so it can slowly start getting outta BETA

[Apnu]

DaZur, on 03 March 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

Okay PGI...

While I understand and appreciate the reason "why"... I'm not exactly thrilled with new map content for CW while solo remains stagnant.

While I don't expect "new" map releases for solo, I would expect new CW maps to also be offered as solo maps.

You are effectively disenfranchising your soloists in an effort to promote CW. Which is a logical veiled motivator... Just a little tacky tactics IMHO.

Make CW more inviting, lucrative and as easy to access as solo and the player-base will naturally transition to it without the unnecessary de-incentification of solo play.

Just my observation and unsolicited advise.

PGI and Russ has said several times this winter that 2015 is the year of CW essentially. Pub. Queue is going to sit for the most part of 2015 as is.

I advocate pulling the pub queue maps and modes into CW and have them matter towards some fraction of a shard on contested planets. Then soloists have a part to play in CW. As for lone wolves, make them acquire a contract with one of the factions before playing, even as small as one match. Incentivize them by giving out a c-bill bonus for having contracts of longer lengths.

CW is, after all, a major pillar of the game, so why keep it for the exclusive use of large units and 12 man groups? None.

I think almost all matches should matter on the CW map somehow.
And for the players who won't pick a faction despite incentives, give them Solaris.

That way, most players are now happy. The large units and competitive groups get organized planet assaults and Solaris matches. Small units and solos can be relevant to CW, everybody gets a c-bill boost, PGI gets paid with happier players. Its a win for everybody.

[Screech]

I honestly think that any attempts to use CW maps in the PUG queue would largely be a waste of time. I think all it would do would create a rash of complaints about the maps in various modes and the net result would be more negative the positive. Assigning assets to a venture that at best will get mixed results doesn't make much sense at this point.

Perhaps you could shoehorn in skirmish and assault only for these maps but conquest would be a mess. Maybe going forward they can look to hybridize future CW maps to be multi-purpose but that would need to be done on the front end of the design.

[DaZur]

Apnu, on 03 March 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

I think almost all matches should matter on the CW map somehow.
And for the players who won't pick a faction despite incentives, give them Solaris.

That way, most players are now happy. The large units and competitive groups get organized planet assaults and Solaris matches. Small units and solos can be relevant to CW, everybody gets a c-bill boost, PGI gets paid with happier players. Its a win for everybody.

Like the idea that even PUG matches have some peripheral impact on CW... Interesting premise.

Maybe some fractional influence toward one house or another. Kind'a some quasi trickle-down effect....

[STEF_]

DaZur, on 03 March 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

While I don't expect "new" map releases for solo, I would expect new CW maps to also be offered as solo maps.

^ THIS ^

[cSand]

lsp, on 03 March 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

Meh.

takes time out of his day to post self-important reply




still fails in pug queue

Edited by cSand, 03 March 2015 - 12:15 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

PUG matches having an influence in CW...what a novel concept, amazing that PGI didn't already think of..oh, wait, they did.

Maybe if you guys did CW you'd realize why you don't see the CW maps being tossed into the rotation for the non-CW games, the maps are not even remotely designed to be played outside of their set parameters for CW, even Counter Attack sucks major on some of the CW maps, as they weren't designed with it in mind and it really shows.

[DaZur]

Kristov Kerensky, on 03 March 2015 - 12:12 PM, said:

PUG matches having an influence in CW...what a novel concept, amazing that PGI didn't already think of..oh, wait, they did.

Maybe if you guys did CW you'd realize why you don't see the CW maps being tossed into the rotation for the non-CW games, the maps are not even remotely designed to be played outside of their set parameters for CW, even Counter Attack sucks major on some of the CW maps, as they weren't designed with it in mind and it really shows.

Calm down Frances... No one is trying to take away your cookie.

You are 100% right that existing CW maps are not conducive to PUG play by design. That said, IMHO that's short-sighted on PGI's part in that a smartly designed map could cater to both audiences with nominal re-work.

[cSand]

They should just make a different weather/time of day version for each map that doesn't have one

[Lostdragon]

Most of the CW maps aren't very good IMO, I wouldn't want to see them in the solo queue.

[Kristov Kerensky]

DaZur, on 03 March 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

Calm down Frances... No one is trying to take away your cookie.

You are 100% right that existing CW maps are not conducive to PUG play by design. That said, IMHO that's short-sighted on PGI's part in that a smartly designed map could cater to both audiences with nominal re-work.

Right, because with your vast experience designing maps for video games, you know that it is extremely easy to design a map for a very specific game type AND make it amiable to all other game types, despite the fact that the specific game type plays nothing like the others and requires designs that totally negate the other game types from being fun, effective, and anything but a total PITA for the players.

it's not nominal rework, it's a massive change up, the maps are designed specifically for Assault/Defense and favor the Defense. They aren't even remotely friendly to the Conquest, Assault or Skirmish modes, and that's by design, as their game type isn't really suitable for the others.

[DaZur]

Kristov Kerensky, on 03 March 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

Right, because with your vast experience designing maps for video games, you know that it is extremely easy to design a map for a very specific game type AND make it amiable to all other game types, despite the fact that the specific game type plays nothing like the others and requires designs that totally negate the other game types from being fun, effective, and anything but a total PITA for the players.

it's not nominal rework, it's a massive change up, the maps are designed specifically for Assault/Defense and favor the Defense. They aren't even remotely friendly to the Conquest, Assault or Skirmish modes, and that's by design, as their game type isn't really suitable for the others.

No offense but yes... I do know. And yes, it's not nearly as complicated as you are making it out to be.

[Kristov Kerensky]

DaZur, on 03 March 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

No offense but yes... I do know. And yes, it's not nearly as complicated as you are making it out to be.

Evidently you don't know, because it is that complicated. The CW maps we have currently are not even remotely friendly to Conquest, Assault or Skirmish. 2 or 3 lanes from a wide open empty side to a very heavy coverage side. Removing the gates won't fix them, removing the turrets won't fix them, they'll play horribly for those game modes regardless, it's just how the maps are laid out. Reorienting by changing spawn locations to the right/left lanes won't do it either, you've got a choice of heading to the wide open death grounds or heading into the heavy cover grounds, and one side has the short path while the other has a long path.

CW maps are not very well designed to begin with, trying to force them to allow other game types won't make them any better. People already complain about the 'forced lanes' the common rotation maps have, you really think they want maps where those 'forced lanes' are not just perceived but actually real AND heavily favor one side over the other?

New maps for the non-CW rotation would be great, but CW is the target for the time being, it's only a year and a half late, so lets not give them reasons to keep it from becoming something worth spending time in. Don't like the map rotations in non-CW, jump in CW, PUGs can play it just the same as anyone else, they do it all the time already. And you even get something more than just some cbills and xp for playing CW.

[TERRIB AL]

Corbenik, on 03 March 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

Even if Pug got a new map they will QQ anyways, no matter how many maps come out if it doesn't suit the taste of certain members they will QQ that they want another one and it repeats, glad CW is getting its maps so it can slowly start getting outta BETA

What, whereas cw folk never QQ about anything?

Nice one.

[RG Notch]

Kristov Kerensky, on 03 March 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

Right, because with your vast experience designing maps for video games, you know that it is extremely easy to design a map for a very specific game type AND make it amiable to all other game types, despite the fact that the specific game type plays nothing like the others and requires designs that totally negate the other game types from being fun, effective, and anything but a total PITA for the players.

it's not nominal rework, it's a massive change up, the maps are designed specifically for Assault/Defense and favor the Defense. They aren't even remotely friendly to the Conquest, Assault or Skirmish modes, and that's by design, as their game type isn't really suitable for the others.

So you might think that people who allegedly have "years of game design experience", although it's mostly making grade Z games, would design maps that might not be so pigeon holed into one mode when they have other game modes. Hey, that's what happens when people without experience stumble onto a license for a popular IP.
Sadly PGI had to come up with their CW plans in a few months since despite lying about working on it for a long time they weren't. Or worse they were and this is the results. I'll allow you to ponder which is worse.

[Kristov Kerensky]

RG Notch, on 03 March 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

So you might think that people who allegedly have "years of game design experience", although it's mostly making grade Z games, would design maps that might not be so pigeon holed into one mode when they have other game modes. Hey, that's what happens when people without experience stumble onto a license for a popular IP.
Sadly PGI had to come up with their CW plans in a few months since despite lying about working on it for a long time they weren't. Or worse they were and this is the results. I'll allow you to ponder which is worse.

Hey now, Duke Nukem Forever was not grade Z, you give it too much credit sir!

I didn't say they made good maps, the CW maps are...well...lets just say they aren't really good for anything but CW, and they rather kind of suck for CW, and leave it at that. I've already suggested they grab some of the old FASA BTech packs and use the maps out of those, at least use them as the basis for their maps, in CW. And I don't mean things like the Canyon map pack or the Forest map pack, I mean the actual game scenerios that FASA did, they had great ones for assaulting Mech Factories and the like, find those, use them to design from, they were pretty good for TT play, can't possibly be worse than what we're getting now.