44 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

DV McKenna, on 08 March 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

I would expect such from you, but i don't care how careful you have been, your connected to the internet probably via more than one means.
It is done, it's cute to think your privacy is under your control, but it really isn't and that is the scary aspect.

Interesting article i read today btw

http://www.theguardi...aptop-sim-cards

Two parts that stick out for me

I guarantee you, there's about as much information on me as there was on Edward Snowden. Not everybody is stupid and put their life on the internet.

Any information that exists was, like your links show, and I said earlier with my spycamera example, gotten through actual illegal means of breaching my privacy.

This is why I freaked out so extremely hard during the transverse saga.

[Bill Lumbar]

I don't care what country you reside in, if you really believe that your privacy is safe or secure, you are in a state of denial. Unless you go off grid, no power lines to your property, no phone lines, no public services, run solar, no cell phone/smart phone, you are connected to the grid, and your information will be sold like crack. Its really simple, In today's age, one should assume there privacy is not a reality, I don't care what country you are from or reside in. I understand all to well that some countries go to greater lengths to "protect" ones privacy, but the bottom line is, push comes to shove, your privacy will be sold out, period. To think any differently is laughable and ones that do are living in la la land.

[Egomane]

Bill Lumbar, on 08 March 2015 - 03:49 PM, said:

To think any differently is laughable and ones that do are living in la la land.

And another one who just lays down and lets his privacy become extinct instead of informing himself and to stand up to fight for one of his most valuable possessions.

[Bill Lumbar]

Egomane, on 08 March 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

And another one who just lays down and lets his privacy become extinct instead of informing himself and to stand up to fight for one of his most valuable possessions.

Who are you referring to? Me? Maybe you misunderstood what I said in my reply, Understanding the reality of a situation is not the same as accepting it, fighting it, or "laying down" and not taking measures to counter it. The fact is that we live in a age that we are all being profiled, and with such acts being committed, privacy is the first thing to go out the window.

Edited by Bill Lumbar, 08 March 2015 - 04:28 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Bill Lumbar, on 08 March 2015 - 03:49 PM, said:

push comes to shove, your privacy will be sold out, period.

I live in Sweden. We have actual privacy parties, pirate parties, and other special interest parties holding power in the government.

I'm sorry you all seemingly live in two party states that love spying on its own citizens, but not all of us do.

Like PP says, you're giving up on your privacy without even so much as a struggle 'because it's inevitable, man!'

I would quote Abe Lincoln, but I'm sure you already know what he had to say about people who gave up their freedom and liberty, and that he accurately predicted that the greatest threat to America was its people giving away their own freedom.

[Bluttrunken]

Any words on the first consumer version of DX12 and accompanying cards? I want to hold off of from a Graphics Card purchase until that happens.

Edited by k05h3lk1n, 08 March 2015 - 07:56 PM.

[Bill Lumbar]

Vassago Rain, on 08 March 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

I live in Sweden. We have actual privacy parties, pirate parties, and other special interest parties holding power in the government.

I'm sorry you all seemingly live in two party states that love spying on its own citizens, but not all of us do.

Like PP says, you're giving up on your privacy without even so much as a struggle 'because it's inevitable, man!'

I would quote Abe Lincoln, but I'm sure you already know what he had to say about people who gave up their freedom and liberty, and that he accurately predicted that the greatest threat to America was its people giving away their own freedom.

Yes Vass... I know that you are from Sweden, as was my family, and I believe the the person you are quoting and and the what he stated is,

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Ben Franklin

I am giving up on privacy you say? Na..... not at all Vass, I have simply stated that for most people, privacy, freedom is too much of a burden. After all, most have much to risk if they stand by their virtues and principles and question anything, let alone do something about it. Most are just happy with the next new toy, a 6 pack of beer, and sitting on their asses as long as they are left alone today or the next.

My line of thinking is more in line with this.....

Herbert Spencer

The Right to Ignore the State
(1851)

[Oderint dum Metuant]

k05h3lk1n, on 08 March 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

Any words on the first consumer version of DX12 and accompanying cards? I want to hold off of from a Graphics Card purchase until that happens.

DX 12 will be tied to Windows 10 so probably a good 12 months or so away.
Current Nvidia Maxwell Cards will support it.
The upcoming AMD 300 series ones will do as well

[Catamount]

It seems to me that most of you have given up on reasonable privacy, simply by insisting on the most implausible method to achieve it. Vassago, by your own admission it's easy to spy on you. You're protected by a flimsy layer of legality, not by your own actions or any reality presented by technology. The only thing one has to do to know everyone about you is violate the law, wait until the law changes, or operate under an implementation of the law that permits gathering information about you.

The irony is that because you seek to promote privacy through secrecy, by looking for society to create all the nice, dark corners that only the powerful have ever been able to hide in, never to the benefit of the likes of you and me, there's no reason to think you'd have any idea if any of the above conditions are ever or will ever be met.

Privacy is achievable through one and only one method, and that's transparency. I can't stop people from having the basic ability to looking at me, and by your own admission, neither can you. All we can do is demand the power to look back and have accountability on when and how such power is used.

Screaming "No don't look at me" at the world only accomplishes one thing: screaming. It doesn't actually mean no one will look at you, given a reason. There is a big difference between privacy and secrecy, and the latter does not accomplish the former. You could ask Julian Assange all about that, except that if he ever came to your supposedly perfect country again he'd be arrested on trumped up **** charges.

Here in the US, we have no illusions that somehow we're going to blind the powerful. That has never worked, and it's never going to work, and we grew up beyond any such illusions a long time ago. In lieu of that, we've taken to something that does work, which is looking back, which is why our police are now increasingly being required to wear badge cams, and laws preventing surveillance of them (you know, that wonderful secrecy stuff), have all been struck down. If you'd like some of our perspective on that matter, you could start with one of our better known authors on the topic, David Brin http://www.davidbrin...entsociety.html


In the meantime, enjoy thinking Windows 7/8 somehow keeps you hidden. I'll use 10, and if Microsoft REALLY wants to keylog and find out how I manage my fantasy football team and where I go for upside down chocolate toaster porn, I'm not particularly concerned, and being concerned wouldn't stop them from finding out anyways. I'm happy, within the limited scope of a technical preview, to agree to provide them data for selective, internal use to improve Windows. The entire POINT of a beta is to provide its creators with as much information as possible on your use of software, and how well it facilitates that use. If that surveillance continued indefinitely without warranted and agreed upon purpose and/or was used unwisely, then transparency is what lets me see that, call them out on it, and damage their reputation with consumers.

Edited by Catamount, 09 March 2015 - 09:01 AM.

[xWiredx]

"A thread about AMD's Mantle being relegated to niche production and support is the best place to argue about privacy."

Keep it classy, mechwarriors.

[Egomane]

No, Catamount! I'm not mistaking secrecy with privacy.
As you point out, those two are completly different concepts.

That you are so freely giving up your privacy with such a fatalistic world view is depressing.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Egomane, on 09 March 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

No, Catamount! I'm not mistaking secrecy with privacy.
As you point out, those two are completly different concepts.

That you are so freely giving up your privacy with such a fatalistic world view is depressing.

Also known as being realistic about the times we live in.

[Egomane]

No, by giving up so easily, you chose to live in that world. It is a reality for you, because you refuse to fight against it.

Others are not so fatalistic and they are successfull. Just think about this: Would the slaves of the past still be slaves if they just accepted it as their fate? Didn't some dreamers on both sides make a change possible? Those dreamers still exist. Still on both sides. You just have to look for them, inform yourself and to stop being so fatalistic. Really, that is all it needs to make a change. Not immediatly, but with enough time for sure.

In the end I will probably not be able to change your thinking on this, but I had to at least try it.

[Catamount]

Oh I certainly try to be realistic, but a fatalist? Just the opposite.

I won't boast that my country has run around ripping down all the cameras and erecting as much secrecy as possible, because hard-earned experience in the US simply doesn't permit seeing that as a good thing. But that doesn't mean I've given up privacy. What it means is that I pursue methods for privacy that might actually have some measure of a chance of working.

I can't stop Microsoft from having the ability to watch me. I can't, plain and simple. Neither can you, Ego, or any other person on this forum. All I can do is make sure they stay open enough about that ability that it's something which can be regulated, and used when and only when and only within the narrow scope(s) that I permit, and consumers have exercised that power, which is a large part of why EA's Origin failed (EA stepped over the line and got crucified for it). If that isn't achievable then this whole conservation is moot because privacy is permanently dead. If it is achievable, then I have nothing to fear from voluntarily providing information to Microsoft in limited context, because I have as much power as they do to regulate that relationship, and I'm doing so to my own benefit by generating a better product.

Edited by Catamount, 09 March 2015 - 09:22 AM.

[Catamount]

Now who knows, maybe you're making a nuke in your basement and ordering all the parts from Goodvalueformoneyterrorism.com and specifically have information to hide. In that case, fair enough, MS probably shouldn't know that. If you just don't like Windows 10, or beta software, that's also fair. Some don't. If you don't think you'd give useful data, and the whole beta process of automated and manual feedback just fits poorly into your day to day computing use, fine.

But as a general principled "don't look at me, I'm going to hide in dark corners if I want to and ain't nobody gonna have a flashlight to shine at me" statement as a consumer? That's not really going to be a useful way to attain privacy, and it removes the opportunity to examine the reasons why one might otherwise want to take part in the W10 TP. That's a loss on both ends.

Edited by Catamount, 09 March 2015 - 09:30 AM.

[Egomane]

Catamount, on 09 March 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

I can't stop Microsoft from having the ability to watch me. I can't, plain and simple. Neither can you, Ego, or any other person on this forum. All I can do is make sure they stay open enough about that ability that it's something which can be regulated, and used when and only when and only within the narrow scope(s) that I permit, and consumers have exercised that power, which is a large part of why EA's Origin failed (EA stepped over the line and got crucified for it). If that isn't achievable then this whole conservation is moot because privacy is permanently dead. If it is achievable, then I have nothing to fear from voluntarily providing information to Microsoft in limited context, because I have as much power as they do to regulate that relationship, and I'm doing so to my own benefit by generating a better product.

I agree on the subject of open communication and making clear concepts of what is being shared. But I am missing those with the current Win10 Beta. MS is as vague as possible and at the same time giving themself the right to look at everything you do, how you do it, when you do it and why you do it. They log your program starts, the files you open and the data within or about them, the keys you press, your time online and they share those informations with an unkown number of others.

They don't tell you what they use those data for, how long they will keep it or with whom they are sharing it. You can stop them doing so, by making it clear to them, that you don't agree to those terms. I did and I am a certified microsoft administrator. They send me a polite response that they understood my reasoning but for the time being will not change the way their beta runs because of single opinions. If more people would do it, it might make a difference. They are also aware of the bad press they recieved over it in some european countries.

I'm pretty sure, that the release version of Win10 will have all the switches needed to make it a system that respects privacy. By doing so, it will most likely lose half of all the new stuff microsoft is currently promoting heavily (like Cortana as a learning voice assistence system).

It is still unlcear if a user who updates from 7 or 8 to Win10 during the free year, will be able to go back to his old OS with his activation key. It is still unclear if microsoft will only make the first year of usage free and then change into an abo mode or lock you out until you made a payment for further usage.

They are the ones keeping secrets from those they want to profit from. If they where open, I'd be more willing to accept the new OS and its beta terms of use. Sadly they are not.

Edited by Egomane, 09 March 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

xWiredx, on 09 March 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

"A thread about AMD's Mantle being relegated to niche production and support is the best place to argue about privacy."

Keep it classy, mechwarriors.

Because no one cares about mantle or AMD's outdated product line.

[Catamount]

Vassago Rain, on 09 March 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

Because no one cares about mantle or AMD's outdated product line.

Mantle: So dead it can't even stay alive as a forum topic

[Catamount]

Ego, it seems you have a pretty good idea of what Microsoft is collecting, so that half of the equation is already settled. But MS making promises about what they'll do with it, OS keys, Windows 10 pricing, etc etc etc is not, I think, all that important.

I don't see transparency as meaning Microsoft makes a bunch of promises about its software. Microsoft could make all the promises they wanted and break them later, so promises protect nobody. Being transparent about claimed future intentions is not the same people keeping a good eye on their actual actions. The way they are kept transparently accountable is that if they do something bad, it doesn't matter with what side of all this, people will know, and they'll face horrible backlash. MS is on thin ice with Windows 10, and they know it. Windows 10 is their chance to prove to the world that they're still the makers of the OS we all want to use, despite Windows 8. If they botch up Windows 10 horribly by somehow flying in the face of basic consumer relations, that's going to put that whole effort to an end. They're really no different than any company in this regard. They have lots of power as big entities, and consumers keep them in check by being aware of how they use it to their benefit or detriment.

I don't want MS to make me promises, specific or otherwise. I just need them to be aware that if they do something bad, we, their consumer base, will know, and we'll subject them to extreme market retribution. As long as that threat stays hanging above them, I have no problem with anything they're doing with W10.

Also, does privacy really hamper Cortana? I admit these voices personal assistants (can we just start calling them VIs? ) are something I don't know any particularly large amount about, but I don't see how it'd have to collect anything new, non-locally, to function. If it does, MS can easily do what they and most others already do: give you an option on sending anonymous usage data.

Edited by Catamount, 09 March 2015 - 10:20 AM.

[Egomane]

Catamount, on 09 March 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

Also, does privacy really hamper Cortana? I admit these voices personal assistants (can we just start calling them VIs? ) are something I don't know any particularly large amount about, but I don't see how it'd have to collect anything new, non-locally, to function. If it does, MS can easily do what they and most others already do: give you an option on sending anonymous usage data.

Yes, privacy will hamper Cortana. For no real reason, Cortana will only be able to learn and to adapt to your speaking patterns, when she can access the MS cloud. She needs outside help for a function that is implemented in voice recognition systems locally for several years now. I just recently installed a similar system for a lawyer. MS is not telling us why this change is needed or why it would be a benefit.

As I said, I'm sure there will be options to turn this off. But then Cortana will never be able to learn and to adapt. She will stay stupid forever.

As far as wanting promises... I don't care about promises. I want real informations. I can understand what they need some of the data they collect for. I do not understand why they keep quiet on who they share it with and to which extend. Some technical data and some statistics on user behavior are needed. I don't understand why they need to know what a file that I am opening regularly contains. I don't understand why they need to know about the content of my private calender. They want to know to many details not relevant for development. They could just let the system generate anonymized profiles and work with those.