LocationPacifica Training School, waiting for BakPhar shares to rise
Posted 09 March 2015 - 09:04 AM
Evan20k, on 07 March 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:
Incidentally, this is why the Atlas is so ineffective. Assault mechs shouldn't be the first one in, yet the common brawler Atlas has an effective range of 240m, so it seldom gets to deal any damage unless the other team is unorganized and scattered.
Your post perfectly defined weight class roles (heavies and mediums push with the guarantee of power from assaults), but this is what caught my eye. If 'Mechs have their "moment," the Atlas' is so rare, so brief and often so heartbreaking. They finally get into position and either the fight's over or long odds leave them overheating while they get shot to pieces. And I say this as one fighting Atlases, not playing them.
Even with the hitbox adjustments the AWS is not as durable as the CPLT. A lot of AWS pilots also run XL engines, which combined with their giant torsos makes them an easy target. Whenever I see an AWS I typically think, "Alright, free kill!" The AWS just does not have the durability to stand up front and try to soak damage so it is relegated to roles like sniping and LRM support.
An Awesome is less durable than a Catapult? Does anyone else share this viewpoint? The CT hitbox on the Catapult is huge. It requires a lot of effort to not take every hit to the CT in a Catapult. If someone is foolish enough to run an XL in an Assault, and is hence a "free kill," it does not change the 3/3/3/3 perspective of Assault-class mechs soaking up at least their share of the damage in encounters with the enemy team. You wouldn't slide into defense of an Atlas with an XL, would you?
Your post perfectly defined weight class roles (heavies and mediums push with the guarantee of power from assaults), but this is what caught my eye. If 'Mechs have their "moment," the Atlas' is so rare, so brief and often so heartbreaking. They finally get into position and either the fight's over or long odds leave them overheating while they get shot to pieces. And I say this as one fighting Atlases, not playing them.
This is due to impatience of teh rest of the team. Assaults are normally 60ish KpH While the rest of the team is 70+ KpH.
An Awesome is less durable than a Catapult? Does anyone else share this viewpoint? The CT hitbox on the Catapult is huge. It requires a lot of effort to not take every hit to the CT in a Catapult. If someone is foolish enough to run an XL in an Assault, and is hence a "free kill," it does not change the 3/3/3/3 perspective of Assault-class mechs soaking up at least their share of the damage in encounters with the enemy team. You wouldn't slide into defense of an Atlas with an XL, would you?
I think a lot of AWS pilots would agree with me, one already has in this thread. I think it is easier to spread damage in a Catapult because the AWS is so easy to hit in any torso from so many different angles. The Catapult may have a very large CT, but it has very small STs that are hard to target. This makes it very XL friendly and gives it a wide variety of builds. The AWS has both a massive CT and massive STs. Without an XL it can't pack enough speed and firepower to be very effective compared to other assaults and most heavies. With an XL it is very fragile and has to stay out of enemy fire or go splat quickly.
The AWS is simply its own worst enemy because it is soooooo wide and a lot of that width is torso. And no, I wouldn't advocate putting an XL in an Atlas.
The job of an assault mech is to be an battleship/mech, the jaggernaut... but without flank and back cover by other classes the assaults can be steamrolled fast like a real battleship in the end of WWII.
1) Soak damage for the team.
2) Open enemy mechs quickly
3) Lead the push to take key map objective points (the high ground, flank move etc)
If mediums and heavies leave the assaults in the dust, they have to bear the brunt of the attack and the brunt of the damage. Once the mediums and heavies are crippled or gone, mopping up the assaults is easy.
The game rewards team play, stay in a tight group and work in concert and wins will come. Split into two forces without a clear reason why, and that's taking the short bus to Loserville.
1) Soak damage for the team.
2) Open enemy mechs quickly
3) Lead the push to take key map objective points (the high ground, flank move etc)
If mediums and heavies leave the assaults in the dust, they have to bear the brunt of the attack and the brunt of the damage. Once the mediums and heavies are crippled or gone, mopping up the assaults is easy.
The game rewards team play, stay in a tight group and work in concert and wins will come. Split into two forces without a clear reason why, and that's taking the short bus to Loserville.
Mostly wrong, if you gonna drive an assault by such trends you'll end-up dead as a red extremely fast without giving any sigh of advantage to your team.
Let's talk about not what assaults "must" but of what they can:
1) They can stay under enemy fire long enough to kill same class enemy weapon platform.
2) They can deliver a massive amount of direct or indirect fire power to enemy.
3) They can be a key-stone of an major assault forces.
The rest is just your erotic fantasy kids.
Edited by Rossario x Vampire, 09 March 2015 - 10:28 AM.
I think a lot of AWS pilots would agree with me, one already has in this thread. I think it is easier to spread damage in a Catapult because the AWS is so easy to hit in any torso from so many different angles. The Catapult may have a very large CT, but it has very small STs that are hard to target. This makes it very XL friendly and gives it a wide variety of builds. The AWS has both a massive CT and massive STs. Without an XL it can't pack enough speed and firepower to be very effective compared to other assaults and most heavies. With an XL it is very fragile and has to stay out of enemy fire or go splat quickly.
The AWS is simply its own worst enemy because it is soooooo wide and a lot of that width is torso. And no, I wouldn't advocate putting an XL in an Atlas.
Let's see if we can get to the bottom of this. In the Inner Sphere, mech design often has to follow the rule of "Firepower, mobility, protection: Pick two." You state that an Awesome requires an XL, and is easy to kill as a result. Alas, an easy to kill Assault mech can only work in MWO's 3/3/3/3 if that armor is subsequently displaced to the rest of the team, hence my poor 1/3 of a Catapult hanging in there. I would not complain if the hypothetically easy-to-kill Awesome in my match had, in realization of his fragility, done away with protection altogether and mounted a 100 point alpha. He was carrying 3 medium lasers and 4xlrm 5's. I believe he did about 100 damage during the match.
Rookie mistakes in build, and subsequent use of the mech? very possible. What is germane to my point however, is that without that 80 ton meatshield backed up by a 65 ton meatshield the team was forced to use a 65 ton meatshield on its own. Without tooting my own horn it so happened that I was able to accomplish this task. The Awesome may be squishy but lighter mechs aren't exactly tanks either.
I would not object to a squishy Awesome with a 100 point alpha, that can at least mortally wound the two mechs it encounters before death. But as it happened, in this one data point of an anecdote, one of our most armor-capable, most-firepower capable mechs absorbed neither its share of punishment nor dealt its share of damage.
I harp on this tale as one that seems to occur frequently: a fresh Assault at the end of a match, to the detriment of the team.
Let's see if we can get to the bottom of this. In the Inner Sphere, mech design often has to follow the rule of "Firepower, mobility, protection: Pick two." You state that an Awesome requires an XL, and is easy to kill as a result. Alas, an easy to kill Assault mech can only work in MWO's 3/3/3/3 if that armor is subsequently displaced to the rest of the team, hence my poor 1/3 of a Catapult hanging in there. I would not complain if the hypothetically easy-to-kill Awesome in my match had, in realization of his fragility, done away with protection altogether and mounted a 100 point alpha. He was carrying 3 medium lasers and 4xlrm 5's. I believe he did about 100 damage during the match.
Rookie mistakes in build, and subsequent use of the mech? very possible. What is germane to my point however, is that without that 80 ton meatshield backed up by a 65 ton meatshield the team was forced to use a 65 ton meatshield on its own. Without tooting my own horn it so happened that I was able to accomplish this task. The Awesome may be squishy but lighter mechs aren't exactly tanks either.
I would not object to a squishy Awesome with a 100 point alpha, that can at least mortally wound the two mechs it encounters before death. But as it happened, in this one data point of an anecdote, one of our most armor-capable, most-firepower capable mechs absorbed neither its share of punishment nor dealt its share of damage.
I harp on this tale as one that seems to occur frequently: a fresh Assault at the end of a match, to the detriment of the team.
Well the bottom line is the AWS is basically the worst IS assault by a pretty big margin and one of the worst mechs in the game. It is very hard to pilot effectively because it has so many things going against it. There are a number of heavies and mediums (and maybe even the FS9) that can take more punishment and are more forgiving to play. Mastering the AWS is basically a vulgar display of masochism. Your team would be better off with anyone of a dozen other mechs than an AWS.
When I'm feeling particularly in the mood for punishment and I play my AWS 9M (the only one I kept) I play it really conservatively because I know if I don't I'll get ripped apart in moments. I regularly do well (and poorly, to be fair) in other assaults, but the AWS is the most difficult assault I own for me to do well with. It is a mech that requires the support of a good team and great positioning by the pilot to both do good damage and survive.
Effective Assault builds I've seen fall into three categories.
(1) Multi-Role builds. You have enough tonnage to carry a direct fire payload *and* a moderate LRM payload. Or brawling AND poking. Laser and missile mechs are limited in DPS by heat, not number of weapons, so you're still getting around 80% effectiveness in each category, and it can be worth it.
(2) DPS forever. Either lots of cool-running ballistics, or lasers with an insane number of heat sinks.
(3) Alpha of DOOM. AC40 crabs, AC20+SRM24 Atlas,etc. One or two shots before you shutdown from heat, but each shot has a good chance of killing your target outright.
Good question. This isn't as cut and dry as some might think. Back when the Atlas was king, brawling was the name of the game the Atlas would lead the charge and this worked well. Then it was PPC Stalkers who would stay at range and one shot people. After that came the Poptarts first the Highlander and then the Victors. Using cover and shooting pin point alphas. The Victor 9S was a great brawler until Clan mechs came out.
All of these Assault Mechs had different roles depending on what the meta was at the time. Right now the Direwolf is king of the assault Mechs with Banshees and Stalkers still going strong for IS. In my opinion XL's are a no no and LRM's are better used in other mechs. There are exceptions.
In my best Assault mechs I try to run mid to long range builds I have a few short range but they just are not as effective right now. With range I can still poke until things get close or I can shoot at a distance while I catch up. My role is to be the heavy hitter, be that at range or up close. Like others said be the spear or the pivot point or the wall.
The best mechs to lead a charge right now are lights and mediums. They can rush in distract and get to cover then right after the Assaults and heavies run in and start dropping guys. If an Assault pushes in first in most cases he is instantly targeted and dropped. The team loses a huge amount of fire power when this happens. This is situational but works with the current meta.
I would not say you have to escort your Assaults with the exception of one spawn point in River City and one spawn point in Crimson Strait. Other than those exceptions a good assault pilot should be able to take care of themselves. Everyone should look at their mini map to see where the team is especially Assaults. As soon as the team starts moving you have to be moving. Just work together and communicate if an assault pilot say hes lagging behind wait it will be better for everyone. If he is just being dumb and gets left behind its his own fault, don't die trying to save him.
I always consider the assaults to be the "heart" of the team.
They shouldn't necessarily lead the charge, and they definitely shouldn't be left behind. IMO, it seems best when the assaults are at the geographic center of a team and the rest of the team revolves around them and their choices.
If an assault is in the front or leads a charge, it's a large and slow target that will quickly get focused down. If an assault brings up the rear, it's vulnerable to flanks and it probably doesn't get to do its job at tanking and dishing out damage because an engagement between heavies and medium mechs can quickly get out of LoS of assaults that are too far backfield.
If assaults are in the middle, however, a mixture of heavies and mediums can lead the charge, drawing fire, and the assaults immediately follow. Some enemy teams will stay focused on the heavies and mediums that lead the charge and the assaults will get uncontested shots on those enemies. Other enemies will shift their focus straight to the assaults, giving the heavies and mediums more free reign to wreck havoc since they've already pushed through the front lines. Either way, it's a lose-lose situation for the unprepared enemy team when it's executed well, and by keeping your assaults toward the middle of your team, you can be ready to employ this tactic off the cuff at any given moment.
Rossario x Vampire, on 09 March 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:
Mostly wrong, if you gonna drive an assault by such trends you'll end-up dead as a red extremely fast without giving any sigh of advantage to your team.
Let's talk about not what assaults "must" but of what they can:
1) They can stay under enemy fire long enough to kill same class enemy weapon platform.
2) They can deliver a massive amount of direct or indirect fire power to enemy.
3) They can be a key-stone of an major assault forces.
The rest is just your erotic fantasy kids.
So the leadership and pushing should come from where? The heavies? Sure they have the firepower, but not the armor to stay in the heart of a brawl. The mediums? Even more laughable. While you're sitting in the back keeping your precious DWF or KGC scratch free.
You are dead wrong.
Assaults are meant to assault things, hence the name. That means they are the point of the spear. They hit the hardest and they meet the enemy first, cleaving through and bringing the rest of the force with them, which also means they take the most abuse.
Teams that run off and don't support the assaults are the teams that lose. Either the fast moving element will find the enemy first, be out numbered, out gunned, and out tonned, or the assaults will be found alone, also out numbered, out gunned and out tonned.
My favorite role for assaults is when they're the jaws of the trap for enemies chasing my light mech. Second favorite is when they get noticed by the enemy who immediately turns from me to them mistakenly thinking "kill the biggest threat on the field." Enemies like that usually lose back armor fast, or get torn up by a bunch of meds and heavies. Assaults are also good at following-up on a charge and seeing it break through, but they're too slow to lead it (usually). Other than that, there are enough variations in chassis and quirks I don't think there is any single "one role to rule them all" for any weight class.
Rossario x Vampire, on 09 March 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:
The job of an assault mech is to be an battleship/mech, the jaggernaut... but without flank and back cover by other classes the assaults can be steamrolled fast like a real battleship in the end of WWII.
Yes, but unlike assaults in this game, Battleships could take a lickin and keep on tickin. Bismarck it took most of the Royal Navy a good long time to sink that, ofc, I know it was in 1941, but still. Several Swordfish torpedo planes, one got a lucky rudder hit. Then after that it took them like 2 hours or so to finally sink it. It was the crew who ended up scuttling it.
Yamato in the end of hte war went out on a suicide mission, it got hammered pretty hard to.
Assault mechs in this game die in just a few salvos from a light mech......and even fast ships are not that impossible to hit and dont get lag shield and crap.
Sure, the Battleship might lose in the end to superior numbers, but it will take some with it.
I only wish MWO Assaults could even begin to do that.
LordKnightFandragon, on 09 March 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:
Yes, but unlike assaults in this game, Battleships could take a lickin and keep on tickin. Bismarck it took most of the Royal Navy a good long time to sink that, ofc, I know it was in 1941, but still. Several Swordfish torpedo planes, one got a lucky rudder hit. Then after that it took them like 2 hours or so to finally sink it. It was the crew who ended up scuttling it.
Yamato in the end of hte war went out on a suicide mission, it got hammered pretty hard to.
Assault mechs in this game die in just a few salvos from a light mech......and even fast ships are not that impossible to hit and dont get lag shield and crap.
Sure, the Battleship might lose in the end to superior numbers, but it will take some with it.
I only wish MWO Assaults could even begin to do that.
The pinpoint damage ability in this game is simultaneously the core of the issue and a whole 'nuther can of worms.
We often hear assault players telling the the team that he was "left them behind" or wasn't "supported". It seems from their perspective that our role in the game is to be their escort. However one thing that isn't ever discussed is what responsibility the assault players have to the team?
I think it's only fair that if assault players can demand things from their team we in turn should demand things from our assault players.
Everyone can outline the primary roles of a light mech, but what about on the other end of the spectrum? What are the general duties of an assault mech? High damage numbers? Survivability? Leading the charge? All of the above? Perhaps some assault players can chime in and talk about what they think their role is in any given game.
As an assault pilot, I don't expect to be "escorted" at all times, particularly when the main fight has been joined and I've committed. At that point I expect to be *supported*.
The only time I expect to be escorted is at the beginning of the game, particularly on larger maps. I think what most assault pilots mean when we complain about being 'left behind' is that in a majority of games most of the team will piss off at maximum throttle, leaving the assault lance severely out of position and very vulnerable to being swarmed and destroyed by a horde of aggressive lights. Some escort to wherever the chosen join-up position of the team is will be much appreciated. Being actually escorted at this point is so rare and is so welcome to see that I try to personally thank whatever light or medium pilots stick around and move with me.
After the team is together, or whatever the chosen tactic is going to be, I see the role of the assault mech as being a primary damage dealer that has some additional survivability over lighter mechs. One thing that everyone needs to realise is that assault mechs, even the Atlas, are in no way whatsoever capable of "tanking" damage. MWO doesn't have a "tank" class or anything of the sort: this isn't DOTA and even an Atlas with front-loaded armour will melt incredibly quickly under sustained focused fire. Anyone who thinks differently should take an AS-7D and charge head-long in to the fight. See how long you last clown shoes.
Most assault mechs, particularly those at 90, 95 and 100 tons do not have the speed to extricate themselves from a contact. I'm looking at you, Atlas and Direwolf. The job of the assault pilot is therefore to know when and where to apply their massive firepower and armour so that it has the maximum impact on the fight that's in progress. A fully tricked out DDC or Dakka-whale can absolutely make the critical difference in an engagement and turn the tide of battle but leading a line advance will only result in being focus fired to death. See above.
Personally, I see my job as described, with an additional emphasis on being responsible for taking down enemy assault mechs.
There are really 2 types of assault play. 3, if you count fringe mechs like speedy Gargamels and the like that can actually move like a heavy. But i wont go into those, as those arent the ones saying they are getting left behind.
First, the support fire mech. LRm heavy loadouts, PPC heavy, basically big pinpoint alpha loadouts that arent much good in a brawl because of heat or fire rate, and usually accompanied by reduction of mobility. Or maybe inherently immobile, like a DWF. Essentially, they NEED an escort, because any two c-bill Raven pilot could come up and circle strafe them to death if they are left alone. It is in the teams interest to escort them, because the ability to open the enemy mech up, even enemy assaults, is unmatched. Leaving that firepower out there to die to an enemy 35 ton mech is sad and wasteful. LRM heavy are similar, but you want to keep them for general dmg, and more importantly area control. It is a lot easier to guess an enemy movement when the open spaces are all LRMDENIED.
Those type assault mechs do indeed need the escort, because they are ill equiped to fend for themselves in close combat, and if the fight takes place out of range of their weapons, they will not be able to bring the advantages they have paid for with drawbacks to point.
The second type is the "you best run away boy" assault mech. Brawl Atlas, dakkawolf, SRM boats, etc. These mechs, you should also not leave them behind. Not because they will die to a lone light, no, they can fend for themselves. But because if you are considerate of their potential, and they pilot the mech to utilize that potential, you will stomp the enemy so bad they wont even know what happened.
Surprise Atlas, is best Atlas.
The big bad, well, he needs to be "around" your team. But he doesnt want the enemy to actually know he is there. He wants you, his smaler team mates, to locate the enemy, and then distract them for just a bit so he can move into OMG AN ATLAS!! position. And then make charcoal bits out of his target, as you laugh at the enemy's folly and misfortune.
Now, once the Atlas has instaganked some poor sod, he is revealed to the enemy(most likely anyway). At this point, he is going to say "autobots, roll out" and he is going to go on a rampage of utter devestation, provided the team has done it's job, drawn the enemy into a favorable position and is ready to support him on his merciless march of terror. Atlas will then move out, at full speed, torso twisting and blowing holes in things until his armor is spent and he is slowly dismantled. It will not matter. if you have supported him, you will have decimated any chance of the enemy recovering and mounting a counter attack, as they will have suffered great losses or at worst, been shot all to peices and are waiting to be cleaned up by a more mobile squad of allies.
Now, I use Atlas for the description, but certain other chassis can have similar loadouts, and behave in a similar way. The potential ids there. It has become more and more rare, as players using laser vomit meta and CoD playstyles have increased exponentially in pug land. It still works, when you have a team that can half ass organize and not think only of themselves, it isnt even that hard to pull off.
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Evan20k, on 07 March 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:
