74 replies to this topic

[Anjian]

How do you envision the future of warfare?

Robocop -
Cyborg vs. AI Droid (ED-209)

Chappie -
AI Droid (Chappie/Scout 022) vs. Mecha or Drone (The Moose)

We define cyborgs as cybernetically enhanced human or biological individuals; mecha/exoskeletons as directly human controlled, pilot or suited, mechanical frames; droids as AI controlled entities; Drone as being human remote controlled entities.

As Moose is remotely controlled through VR helmet, I might shift its definition from Mecha to Drone.

So once again,
Cyborg vs. Drone vs. Mecha vs. Droid

I find it rare that any scifi franchise would embody all four elements. Probably the best and only one I know would be Ghost in the Shell.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Helicopters are completely useless as a combat vehicle, they can not carry heavy Armor, and are already sometimes unusable by their rotors with a goal to be as never succeed as genuine military equipment, tanks are too slow in Urban Terrain, they have too many blind spots already a soldier in a drain or a mine may mean an end, both are tens of millions of money that are too fast to destroy because large easy targets only the Mobile Infantry will always dominate the fight

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 13 March 2015 - 03:50 AM.

[AWOL 01]

I heard it was called the Moose but I don't really understand why? Its VTOL ability is reeeeally cool but I don't think it's very realistic. You'd need some pretty powerful engines to get that thing off the ground, it would move pretty slowly, and I'm not sure how much fuel it would be able to carry without becoming an explosion waiting to happen. Since its locomotion system wouldn't take up very much power maybe they could put rotors on it driven by electric motors instead? That way there wouldn't be and fuel to explode and it would still have some ability to fly/hover/get on top of a building? It still doesn't seem very realistic. Another option would be to have some type of system in the feet/legs to allow it to jump. Something like a compressed air system that gives a quick boost and can be recharged quickly.

Personally I agree with CSJ Ranger. Mobile Infantry is always going to play a major role in warfare. No matter how autonomous we let machines get there will always be a need for a human presence on the battlefield. I think Cyborgs will be reserved for the Special Forces guys who are willing to do what it takes to complete the mission. Regular infantry will have exoskeletons. Various sizes of droids will follow these troops around receiving orders, such as where to move or to lay down suppressive fire or to fire at whatever the infantry is firing at. That way you could have a few humans clearing a building with drones to provide extra firepower and protection. In more open areas you could have larger drones (Moose-sized) to proved support, or to serve as a Humvee-type vehicle receiving general directions from the troops it's following. Then you'd have officers back at the base controlling the high-tech vehicles, like tanks or walkers or APCs.

[XphR]

They are still improving helicopters to this day as well they do still have combat rolls. BlueEdge blades are even starting to address the chop that the blades produce causing their distinct sound to be heard from from such great distances.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Reference helo's,
They have a speed limit, difficult to exceed due to loss of lift on the blades. There role still allows for deployment to difficult locations, hover, observe, and engage from distance. Advancements are being made to combine fixed and retractable blade systems but still in design stages. Loosing the tail rotor was one of the better design outcomes.

As has been addressed, I also see the military moving to 'enhancing' the abilities of the normal ground soldier, either through powered armour additions or exoskeletons. (both are currently in testing.) The advancements in light strong integrated body armour is at a turning point with the latest nano tech and ability to blend materials that previously could never be produced. Materials that 'react' to force trauma and change density are also being tested now. Over the next 10 years there will be some serious changes in protection levels and there cost, suitable for standard issue to those involved in conflicts.

If you haven't watched or seen the latest 3D printing ability to create blended materials, including clothing, do some searching and watching. What we used to think was sifi and only 'in the movies', is suddenly becoming reality. If your still under the opinion that 'yea, we can do it. But it just cost too much'. Not so anymore!

9erRed

[Anjian]

The mech from District 9, which is one of the most awesome mechs I've seen for a movie. It is simply called the ""Exosuit".

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

That District 9 'Exosuit' did get knocked down, damaged, and basically wrecked.
- but in the mean time its fire power was far superior to the 'elite Soldiers', vehicles, and aircraft present.
- Mobility kept it surviving, firepower kept combatants at bay.

And that was just one suit, imagine a working group of them or more. Machine 'smarts' and speed, Pilot ability, and firepower.
- All combinations that could or would make groups of similar machines possibly more than a challenge for conventional equipment. And for those saying "yea, but one missile and its done". You have to be able to 'lock on' to your target or track the missile manually to even hit the target. Smaller sub-munitions, deployed in top attack may not work on a fast moving target, even if they are able to 'detect a target' with there sensors on the way down.

But, I still see military applications going for much smaller, soldier enhanced equipment. Load bearing or body armour being it's function, as that is much easer to field to the common troops and much cheaper.
(we've had all kinds of advancements in the past that could have been deployed to troops, but it cost too much per soldier, so never made it. So sad.)

Just some thoughts,
9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 14 March 2015 - 04:59 AM.

[AWOL 01]

Anjian, on 13 March 2015 - 11:47 PM, said:

The mech from District 9, which is one of the most awesome mechs I've seen for a movie. It is simply called the ""Exosuit".

How was District 9? I wanted to see it but I never got a chance to. I did watch the scene with the mech suit and that was pretty awesome.

9erRed, on 14 March 2015 - 04:58 AM, said:

Greetings all,

That District 9 'Exosuit' did get knocked down, damaged, and basically wrecked.
- but in the mean time its fire power was far superior to the 'elite Soldiers', vehicles, and aircraft present.
- Mobility kept it surviving, firepower kept combatants at bay.

And that was just one suit, imagine a working group of them or more. Machine 'smarts' and speed, Pilot ability, and firepower.
- All combinations that could or would make groups of similar machines possibly more than a challenge for conventional equipment. And for those saying "yea, but one missile and its done". You have to be able to 'lock on' to your target or track the missile manually to even hit the target. Smaller sub-munitions, deployed in top attack may not work on a fast moving target, even if they are able to 'detect a target' with there sensors on the way down.

But, I still see military applications going for much smaller, soldier enhanced equipment. Load bearing or body armour being it's function, as that is much easer to field to the common troops and much cheaper.
(we've had all kinds of advancements in the past that could have been deployed to troops, but it cost too much per soldier, so never made it. So sad.)

Just some thoughts,
9erRed

Like I said before I would expect to see many different types of mech/robots/drones and combinations of each rather than just one vehicle overpowering them all.

Currently the US Army's smallest division is a fire team, which is 4 soldiers: a fire team leader, a grenadier, an automatic rifleman, and a rifleman. I could see this becoming a single soldier in an exoskeleton being followed by 3 autonomous robots that he can give simple commands to to protect him or cover him or fire at whatever he's firing at, etc.

The next largest group is a squad consisting of 8-10 soldiers. This would be 2 fire teams with a larger drone (Moose-sized) that is operated by an officer back at base.

The next largest group is a section consisting of 2-3 fire teams, or 7-12 soldiers. This larger group could be supported by 2 drones or a walker/tank that would carry heavy weaponry.

With this systems our military would still have the same basic structure, but by replacing the majority of troops on the field with robots or drones we could cut down casualties tremendously. It would also make it harder for the human fire team leader to be killed because he'd have 3 robots protecting him and they would take the brunt of the attacks when clearing buildings or other dangerous tasks. Have them go in first and check it out, and if they're fired at or if the fire team leader authorizes it they can fire back. Then when there are multiple fire teams you could provide them with more support from drones that could carry .50s or miniguns and multiple types of grenades and could serve as an APC/Humvee-type vehicle that the soldiers could seek refuge in. Walkers and tanks could be interchangeable depending on the situation.

[Anjian]

9erRed, on 14 March 2015 - 04:58 AM, said:

Greetings all,

That District 9 'Exosuit' did get knocked down, damaged, and basically wrecked.
- but in the mean time its fire power was far superior to the 'elite Soldiers', vehicles, and aircraft present.
- Mobility kept it surviving, firepower kept combatants at bay.

And that was just one suit, imagine a working group of them or more. Machine 'smarts' and speed, Pilot ability, and firepower.
- All combinations that could or would make groups of similar machines possibly more than a challenge for conventional equipment. And for those saying "yea, but one missile and its done". You have to be able to 'lock on' to your target or track the missile manually to even hit the target. Smaller sub-munitions, deployed in top attack may not work on a fast moving target, even if they are able to 'detect a target' with there sensors on the way down.

But, I still see military applications going for much smaller, soldier enhanced equipment. Load bearing or body armour being it's function, as that is much easer to field to the common troops and much cheaper.
(we've had all kinds of advancements in the past that could have been deployed to troops, but it cost too much per soldier, so never made it. So sad.)

Just some thoughts,
9erRed

Mixed teams can work.

Piloted mech acting as a controller, supported by unmanned drone mechs and 'droids', which are mansized autonomous units. They can be supplemented by live soldiers in exoskeletons and 'frames' similar to Avatar's AMP. (The AMP here has more in common with the frames used in the game franchise Lost Planet than Battletech though).

Edited by Anjian, 15 March 2015 - 07:08 PM.

[Anjian]

The kind of exoskeleton here, I would think is actually quite feasible. It does need a bit more cockpit protection though, plus lightweight carbon armor to cover the joints and limbs.

[Anjian]

That is what I said, add carbon (fiber, graphene) panels to cover the cockpit and the joints.

Should note that gatling guns similar to the one you see in the AEGIS destroyers of the US Navy, are probably more than adequete weapons for a mech. Don't let the portrayal of machine guns in Mechwarrior fool you with their 170m ranges. Machine guns go much farther than that --- in World War 2, aircraft can shoot down each other with machine guns and small caliber autocannon with ranges up to and exceeding 700 meters.

[Anjian]

How the heck you have a range of 170 meters to be 50 times more powerful? Do you understand ballistics at all? Range, accuracy and penetration do not have an inverse relationship. When a shell has a greater range, it usually has greater penetration as well. The one thing that cuts back in range for a projectile is poor aerodynamics and weight.

As for accuracy, if 50 cals can hit a fighter plane at a deflection rate with speeds over 400kph, you bet they are accurate.

At 3050AD, there is no reason why machineguns are stuck at 170m.

[XphR]

AWOL 01, on 15 March 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

How was District 9? I wanted to see it but I never got a chance to. I did watch the scene with the mech suit and that was pretty awesome.

I dont know about it being over hyped, I had only ever seen it being slammed. However I found it enjoyable as far as science fiction goes. The pacing may be a bit off for some people and it had a lot of underlying messages in it.

[Brody319]

Well...Still need a practical use for mechs over any other machine that requires less materials and effort to use and maintain.

[AWOL 01]

Brody319, on 16 March 2015 - 01:23 AM, said:

Well...Still need a practical use for mechs over any other machine that requires less materials and effort to use and maintain.

Just wondering if you read my posts from earlier in the topic? If you did I can try to explain my reasoning. To answer your last statement about other machines using less materials and effort, a mech with CNT muscles would actually be very cheap once CNT is mass-produced. It's a woven material that contracts when an electrical current is put through it, and very little current at that. They can be designed so that even the heat from your hand or sunlight makes them contract. With some more study on the biology of animals and how their muscles and bone structure work we could copy that. They'd be much easier to replace than most other types of actuators when damaged, and in the future may even be able to heal themselves. It would be much cheaper and simpler to fix then the treads, engine, radiator, etc. on a tank.