138 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

I actually feel the current ECM is rather balanced.

It is rarely worth it taking a mech only because it has ECM, and none of the top dogs in the meta has ECM. It is of course very good for the team to have a couple, just as it should be, but it usually comes at the cost of using a weaker mech that could otherwise be used. For example the Atlas D-DC is an overall weaker mech than the S, because firepower beats ECM any day of the week. The Cicada 3M isn't the best Cicada, and after quirks happened the Raven 3L isn't the strongest Raven.

If ECM is so overpowered, how is it that none of the ECM mechs apart from the Hellbringer (and I'd argue ECM isn't the main reason) are tier 1 in the comp meta?

The funny thing is that many people complain about how OP ECM is, and yet apparently it isn't OP enough for them to bring it themselves.

It is the annoyance of facing it that causes complaints, not the strength, just like the annoyance of LRMs causes people to complain about them despite how weak they are. But should the game not have any annoying features of this kind? of course it should.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Tabu 73, on 08 March 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

+1

In regards to the OP I would like to say that I'd be willing to try out the proposed changes for a trial period if only to prove that it would lead to another LRMaggedon.

Let any Mech mount Guardian ECM. That would do it. Guardian ECM is not an overpowered JesusBox, so it would not have to be restricted to just "ECM Mechs." Also, since "ECM Mechs" would no longer have their private ECM Crutch, they could be properly quirked as "Combat Mechs."

[C E Dwyer]

Eleshod, on 08 March 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

Psh and have the firestarters outclass my Raven 3L even harder? Ill pass, LRM spam is still heavy enough ingame with ecm, lurm-pocolypse would begin all over again if they dropped ecm cover.

Its Ironic that you don't see it, but Lurms would actually reduce, as the boaters would have to come out of cover to fire them

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Yeah this would be good to do for ECM.



With missile weapons I'd apply a new tracking system with a ripple fire pattern and redo locks to LOS, TAG and NARC only.

For example, I'd love to have missiles simply follow the crosshair / reticle until they hit something or reach max range for any missile system as a default for how they fire.

Then Streaks would simply have the Lock-On system to conserve ammo, and indirect fire from LRMs would be limited so that further tweaks and buffs could be applied to missile systems as necessary.

[Artgathan]

Essentially your suggestion boils down to removing the only information-denial tool from the game (our current ECM is the only thing that really enables information warfare). What would you suggest replacing it with?

I agree that ECM blocking missile locks is bad, but I think the fault with this issue lies in the missile lock mechanics and not with ECM itself (see above - ECM is necessary for information warfare).

[C E Dwyer]

Davers, on 08 March 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

I would rather get rid of Missile Locks and buff LRM's direct fire ability, with indirect fire using the Battle Map a la WoT.
Not sure how to implement SSRMs without invalidating regular SRMs (especially for Clans).

God I wouldn't, Arty in WoT is a much bigger headache to balance then ECM in MWO

[Richard Warts]

Sjorpha, on 08 March 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

I actually feel the current ECM is rather balanced.

It is rarely worth it taking a mech only because it has ECM, and none of the top dogs in the meta has ECM. It is of course very good for the team to have a couple, just as it should be, but it usually comes at the cost of using a weaker mech that could otherwise be used. For example the Atlas D-DC is an overall weaker mech than the S, because firepower beats ECM any day of the week. The Cicada 3M isn't the best Cicada, and after quirks happened the Raven 3L isn't the strongest Raven.

If ECM is so overpowered, how is it that none of the ECM mechs apart from the Hellbringer (and I'd argue ECM isn't the main reason) are tier 1 in the comp meta?

The funny thing is that many people complain about how OP ECM is, and yet apparently it isn't OP enough for them to bring it themselves.

It is the annoyance of facing it that causes complaints, not the strength, just like the annoyance of LRMs causes people to complain about them despite how weak they are. But should the game not have any annoying features of this kind? of course it should.

Well said.

[Davers]

Cathy, on 08 March 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

God I wouldn't, Arty in WoT is a much bigger headache to balance then ECM in MWO

One hit kill arty from across the map is a much bigger headache than an LRM30 from 1000m.

[Mcgral18]

I think people should go play some MWLL to see a decent implementation of gECM and aECM.


They don't stop locks outright, simply delay them. They cancel NARC(even if you NARC the carrier) and cut radar detection. (Or did Angel increase your signature, but shield your allies in that 200M bubble, to drown their signals out).

It's handy, but doesn't gank weapon systems. I guess it helps that missiles are direct fire only, unless the target is NARCed or TAG is guiding them.



Or, if PGI doesn't want to touch the Magic Jesus Box, at least give it one of the proper penalties. Stealth Armour generates 10 heat per turn; or 1 heat per second. That essentially turns DHS into SHS in most builds. That's a balancing feature. The question is...is the Jesus Box worth that penalty?

[LordNothing]

mwll certainly did things the right way. electronic warfare was a lot more diverse too.

i think we should use both systems, stick guardian in the raven and angel in the ddc. clan has its improved ecm suite which should fall somewhere in the middle. the angel would be heavier and take up some crits, making its use on the raven cumbersome.

and fix ssrm dumbfire. its stupid i can dumbfire lerms but not ssrms.

Edited by LordNothing, 08 March 2015 - 01:06 PM.

[Variant1]

Mcgral18, on 08 March 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

I think people should go play some MWLL to see a decent implementation of gECM and aECM.

They don't stop locks outright, simply delay them. They cancel NARC(even if you NARC the carrier) and cut radar detection. (Or did Angel increase your signature, but shield your allies in that 200M bubble, to drown their signals out).

It's handy, but doesn't gank weapon systems. I guess it helps that missiles are direct fire only, unless the target is NARCed or TAG is guiding them.

Or, if PGI doesn't want to touch the Magic Jesus Box, at least give it one of the proper penalties. Stealth Armour generates 10 heat per turn; or 1 heat per second. That essentially turns DHS into SHS in most builds. That's a balancing feature. The question is...is the Jesus Box worth that penalty?

Well the problem is MWLL is a completely different game. it handles ecm differently than MWO.
underlined: the MWO lrms are indirect fire unlike MWLL lrms that are direct fire.

Also what jesus box? i dont see anywhere in the mechlab a jesus box nor how much it weighs or what it does. Another thing no offence but implementing Table top rules to a real time shooter is like giving chess (which is turned based) RTS rules.
edit:spelling

Edited by Variant1, 08 March 2015 - 01:07 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Sjorpha, on 08 March 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

I actually feel the current ECM is rather balanced.

It is rarely worth it taking a mech only because it has ECM, and none of the top dogs in the meta has ECM. It is of course very good for the team to have a couple, just as it should be, but it usually comes at the cost of using a weaker mech that could otherwise be used. For example the Atlas D-DC is an overall weaker mech than the S, because firepower beats ECM any day of the week. The Cicada 3M isn't the best Cicada, and after quirks happened the Raven 3L isn't the strongest Raven.

If ECM is so overpowered, how is it that none of the ECM mechs apart from the Hellbringer (and I'd argue ECM isn't the main reason) are tier 1 in the comp meta?

The funny thing is that many people complain about how OP ECM is, and yet apparently it isn't OP enough for them to bring it themselves.

It is the annoyance of facing it that causes complaints, not the strength, just like the annoyance of LRMs causes people to complain about them despite how weak they are. But should the game not have any annoying features of this kind? of course it should.

Because the other ECM mechs are...

A locust.
A very slow, very obvious, extremely well known 100 tonner, with very few hardpoints.
An undergunned light that can't jump.
A 25 ton IS light that's slow, can't have max engine dubs, can't actually wield a credible arsenal, and has very little reason for existing.
A clan 25 tonner with so much hardwired equipment, it's pointless to even bring the robot.
Another even more undergunned light that can jump, but typically wields a single weapon.
A fat and slow clan light that tends to lose ECM if you look at its godhand.
A really fat light disguised as a medium.

Massed lokis is a huge problem, and you're gonna have a super good time when the paywalled arctic cheetahs hit.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Vassago Rain, on 08 March 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

Because the other ECM mechs are...

A locust.
A very slow, very obvious, extremely well known 100 tonner, with very few hardpoints.
An undergunned light that can't jump.
A 25 ton IS light that's slow, can't have max engine dubs, can't actually wield a credible arsenal, and has very little reason for existing.
A clan 25 tonner with so much hardwired equipment, it's pointless to even bring the robot.
Another even more undergunned light that can jump, but typically wields a single weapon.
A fat and slow clan light that tends to lose ECM if you look at its godhand.
A really fat light disguised as a medium.

Massed lokis is a huge problem, and you're gonna have a super good time when the paywalled arctic cheetahs hit.

You're very correct: putting Angel ECM on a combat-capable Clan HeavyMech is very different from putting it on a gimped Light. That's why I suggest we nerf the power of each ECM deployment, and buff its quantity of deployment by allowing more Mechs to mount it in a nerfed-form.

[Wildstreak]

You forgot NARC and TAG cutting through ECM.

I would settle for changing the stealth radius to allow medium range fire yes LRMs would be useful but not up to the full 1000m, LRM users would actually have to get in closer than the preferred 'sit way in the back mode' to actually shoot.

Kalo Shin, on 08 March 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

This is not the tabletop game, please stop saying we should adhere soley to a tabletop game.

No one is, in an open discussion you can discuss anything within reason.

[Glaive-]

I, for one, completely and fully agree with OP.

ECM might not be OP, but it sure isn't fun to deal with, or interesting. It was a bit off ever since its implementation, and personally I would like to see some changes. Would make the game better in the end.

[Wildstreak]

Sjorpha, on 08 March 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

none of the top dogs in the meta has ECM.

If ECM is so overpowered, how is it that none of the ECM mechs apart from the Hellbringer (and I'd argue ECM isn't the main reason) are tier 1 in the comp meta?

How is it only a certain, small part of the playerbase matters? The whole should matter, if you will not acknowledge the rest then there is no point listening.

Sjorpha, on 08 March 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

The funny thing is that many people complain about how OP ECM is, and yet apparently it isn't OP enough for them to bring it themselves.

It is the annoyance of facing it that causes complaints, not the strength, just like the annoyance of LRMs causes people to complain about them despite how weak they are. But should the game not have any annoying features of this kind? of course it should.

I have brought it and sure enough, my team W/L went up just from bringing ECM and knowing where to position it. All I needed to do, bring ECM, put it in the right spot, better chance of team victory, stats proved it, they just got ignored because too many focus on damage only.

So no, it is not the annoyance of facing it, it is the fact that bringing it increases the chance of team victories in addition to dumbing down the complexity of the game.

[stjobe]

I stopped playing my COM-2D back when ECM came out; with ECM and 3xSSRM-2 it felt too much like cheating.

There's been lots of changes since then, of course, but the main fact remains: ECM is badly implemented, badly balanced, has little to no connection to lore ("a BattleTech game", remember?), and needs a major overhaul.

[Knight Magus]

Let's hope that PGI never makes Angel ECM - which is superior to GECM which is already too powerful.

[Tennex]

I gotta say its really grown on me.
But i would not mind if they toned it down. While also nerfing the counters. Provided they provided the Angle ECM to replace the MWO ECM's role.

I like the kind of stealth gameplay it provides. And would not mind if they added the angel ECM to take on that role instead of having all the functions on the guardian ECM.

Edited by Tennex, 08 March 2015 - 01:51 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I just made a spoiler of how I image Guardian ECM to be implemented, along with the rules for BAP, TAG, and NARC... see OP, and then feel free to quote it and then verbally smash it to bits!