270 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

Kristov Kerensky, on 09 March 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

MW3 was not a sim, it was an arcaded version of MW2, and that was on purpose,

Wut?



vs



Which one of these has the more complex sim mechanics. The one without the floating crosshair or ability to fire behind you, the heat scale with penalties. Its even got advanced zoom...

[Kristov Kerensky]

Come on Krafty, PGI wasn't getting help from CryTek before the MW:LL thing, CryTek wasn't giving anyone any real support, they were too busy working on Crysis 3, which rather annoyed some people at PGI that I've talked to, but what can they do?

Unreal 4 engine..free..royalty on 3k/quarter...thinking PGI should go look into that, never liked the CryTek engine myself, Unreal engine is much better in so many ways...

[KraftySOT]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 09 March 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

Which effect actually does a dev updated version has on a engine? is it a big deal?

Oh yes.

Their license of the engine entitles them to the updates, but not how fast or hard anyone at Crytek works on those updates for an older version of their engine.

Now to be fair, im not entirely sure any of the MWLL guys even work on the engine, but youd figure since Samurai did things Crytek said couldnt be done, he's probably working on their engine.

Given the details of this situation. How hard do you think he's going to work to get PGI functionality that they want.

Kristov Kerensky, on 09 March 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

Come on Krafty, PGI wasn't getting help from CryTek before the MW:LL thing, CryTek wasn't giving anyone any real support, they were too busy working on Crysis 3, which rather annoyed some people at PGI that I've talked to, but what can they do?

Unreal 4 engine..free..royalty on 3k/quarter...thinking PGI should go look into that, never liked the CryTek engine myself, Unreal engine is much better in so many ways...

They got guys working on the old version, they have too, simply for license reasons. PGI isnt the only people licensing it.

As to engines, I do totally agree there, yes there are plenty of better engines, with better prices.

[KraftySOT]

And since MWLL predates MWO...youd have to think that they probably saw it work in that engine, and that informed their choice of engines. Sadly.

The entire gaming world has a shortfall of engine mechanics. In the 90s, (well PGI couldnt exist in the 90s in their current form unless they were buddies in a garage somewhere) they could have developed their own engine. There were plenty of guys who can do that, and not many game studios.

Now theres faaaar more games than there are unique engines. So people license them. In a perfect world, PGI would have built their own engine, specifically to do the things Battletech needs done.

Engine limitations are the number one factor in why all Btech games have been fairly subpar unfortunately, compared to what they COULD be.

Something like Arma's engine would do what we need, complex math, lots of open space, lots of units, simulation mechanics, high detail physics, very good LoD system, real terrain mapping with a fairly high resolution, and the ability to deal with a huuuge amount of calculations since so many things are affected by the physics engine.

Edited by KraftySOT, 09 March 2015 - 03:08 PM.

[dimachaerus]

KraftySOT, on 09 March 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

Now to be fair, im not entirely sure any of the MWLL guys even work on the engine, but youd figure since Samurai did things Crytek said couldnt be done, he's probably working on their engine.

Only one former MWLL dev still works for Crytek, and he works on particle effects. The rest are with CIG now.

[KraftySOT]

dimachaerus, on 09 March 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

Only one former MWLL dev still works for Crytek, and he works on particle effects. The rest are with CIG now.

So thats why the heat smoke and LRM trails drop my FPS into the gutter.

Noted. j/k (mostly)

But just imagine what the software industries version of "special sauce on your cheeseburger" is when you act like a jerk to your proprietary overlord.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

and i still miss my beloved quad lxb "death from above" sheeva ,_,

[dimachaerus]

KraftySOT, on 09 March 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

So thats why the heat smoke and LRM trails drop my FPS into the gutter.

Noted. j/k (mostly)

But just imagine what the software industries version of "special sauce on your cheeseburger" is when you act like a jerk to your proprietary overlord.

Weeeelllll... the guy I'm referring to was rather infamous in the team for making particle effects that would quite literally bring your system to a skidding, crashing, orifice bleeding, screaming, flaming, STOP. They were eye wateringly beautiful, and lovingly handcrafted, but good freaking LORD they would eat your CPU for a light snack and hunger for more.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

KraftySOT, on 09 March 2015 - 02:42 PM, said:

And thats why we are where we are. Because Paul agrees with you.

The vast majority of the community however, says that the core mechanics are the core mechanics in the rule books...all of them. The combined arms, the grand strategy, the pilot quirks, the weapon systems, the ranges, the heat scale, the armor, the lore, the aiming, the systems, all of it.

Sure, I do disagree on some points though.

- Pilot quirks. The major factor for imbalanced matches is the implementation of Pilot trees in MWO. These all should be ditched and the pilot "quirks" are provided by the player and his skill (as it was supposed to simulate in TT)

- Aiming, of course related to pilot quirks according to rule book. This I think should be left as it is. All projectiles need to be lead on and lasers being DOT is good mechanic.

- And then to the weapon systems. MWO is an FPS and needs to be balanced that way. If medium laser needs to do 6 damage instead of 5, so be it.

- Combined Arms. Too complicated and a possible imbalance factor for matches.

What I do think PGI is missing on

- Systems. Yes, the radar. Also ECM mechanics, some much potential wasted.

- Lore. I am still amazed the rich lore hasn't been used for immersion. Seriously WTF... They need to hire a loremaster to get that **** in the game. But then again, neither did MW:LL capitalize this. Everyone ASSUMES people know the lore, when in fact there are people playing who barely know what a BattleMech is.

Quote

MWLL agrees with the latter, and thats why you see so many people heralding it, despite its rough appearance.

Not that many. Alot of vocal individuals, yes. And I can understand why.

Quote

Read every review back when it got out of CB. Says that in a nutshell. Everyone wants MOAR, and PGI is incapable, or unwilling, to do MOAR.

Yeah I did read all of them and the critique was justified. Here's one of the lastest ones... Critique is still justified.
http://www.mmogames....nline-review-2/

Quote

They picked a bad engine, a bad game architecture, were inexperienced, picked up some players with the wrong strengths, and it is what it is...we'll always be defined by the things we didnt do. PGI DIDNT get CW right. It DIDNT add new or meaningful mechanics to the franchise. PGI DIDNT reiterate mechanics that worked well. PGI DIDNT do community management right for...3 years...PGI DIDNT have a good relationship with Reddit and its community...

All these things are their legacy, and unfortunately, its also tied to the franchises legacy.

That is your opinion that very well is shared with many of the original founders. However... Comparing to MW:LL is alot of ifs. They chose the bad engine also, other wise you really can't argue what they DID on the rest of the list.

I'm not being overly defensive about MWO, but you know, MW:LL wasn't that great either.

[Bluttrunken]

A mod getting shut down because of licensing issues is hardly big news. It happens alot and there are several mods actually which I mourn. E.g. the Middleearth mod for Skyrim/Oblivion. It's often alot of wasted work but honestly... why putting so much work into copyright protected material when the risk is so high that it gets shut down eventually? There's no sense in this. And it's the good right of companies to shut such mods down, sorry to say that.

Edited by k05h3lk1n, 09 March 2015 - 03:39 PM.

[KraftySOT]

ugrakarma, on 09 March 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

Sure, I do disagree on some points though.

- Pilot quirks. The major factor for imbalanced matches is the implementation of Pilot trees in MWO. These all should be ditched and the pilot "quirks" are provided by the player and his skill (as it was supposed to simulate in TT)

- Aiming, of course related to pilot quirks according to rule book. This I think should be left as it is. All projectiles need to be lead on and lasers being DOT is good mechanic.

- And then to the weapon systems. MWO is an FPS and needs to be balanced that way. If medium laser needs to do 6 damage instead of 5, so be it.

- Combined Arms. Too complicated and a possible imbalance factor for matches.

What I do think PGI is missing on

- Systems. Yes, the radar. Also ECM mechanics, some much potential wasted.

- Lore. I am still amazed the rich lore hasn't been used for immersion. Seriously WTF... They need to hire a loremaster to get that **** in the game. But then again, neither did MW:LL capitalize this. Everyone ASSUMES people know the lore, when in fact there are people playing who barely know what a BattleMech is.


Not that many. Alot of vocal individuals, yes. And I can understand why.



Yeah I did read all of them and the critique was justified. Here's one of the lastest ones... Critique is still justified.
http://www.mmogames....nline-review-2/



That is your opinion that very well is shared with many of the original founders. However... Comparing to MW:LL is alot of ifs. They chose the bad engine also, other wise you really can't argue what they DID on the rest of the list.

I'm not being overly defensive about MWO, but you know, MW:LL wasn't that great either.

Well there are actual pilot quirks in the ruleset. Like say, being a laser expert. But you have a finite amount of XP you can ever earn before youre "elite" and cant earn anymore. So spending it is a meaningful choice.

If you go one route, youve closed off another route. That should be our "pilot tree" and is totally TT as fuuuuh.

Same thing with the weapons. Technically, in the TT, the weapons do a variety of damage at a variety of rates of fire, its just "over 10 seconds heres about how much damage it does". You have a huuuge amount of leeway there to balance things and still be .. TT as fuuuh.

Lore...agree completely. You can always step outside the TT, if you step INTO the lore.

Medium lasers not working out right? Welp, in the Lore, theres literally dozens of types of medium lasers. Make. Moar. Medium lasers. Balance those endlessly to shake up the meta. Theres so much that can be done, that you can see the MWLL guys WANTED to do because they had the passion and knowledge of the lore.

PGI has TWO (or had, as said, unclear) guys who are like that...we hear nothing from them, about them, they arent doing the NGNG pod casts, its all just Paul and Russ flapping their holsters.

The opportunity is there. Pgi is squandering it.

[Impyrium]

I'm still sad I never got to play LL before it got nuked, but I suppose it never had that many players in the first place. That said, there's usually a few people on depending on the time and just the other day I had a pretty fun Solaris game with four or five people.

That said, it's not the holy grail of MechWarrior games or anything. Obviously the quality of the game or mod is pretty much on par with an amateur modding team and as a result the models, animations and I suppose mech control mechanics feel and look clunky.

But I guess the sore spot is that despite that it still does better than MW:O in a lot of areas. The key, I think, was that LL and many of the previous games have been BattleMech simulator first and multiplayer shooter second. MW:O is obviously a multiplayer F2P arena shooter first and MechWarrior simulator second. Sure, MW:O might have much higher quality production values and a much smoother control system but other than that we're still playing generic shooter game modes on over-designed arena maps.

The biggest thing I miss about LL is their maps. Graphics aside, they felt like proper, realistic terrain. Size wise they created a much more intelligent gameplay style focused on terrain control rather than death ball skirmishes. I've never been a fan of how MW:O map design is approached as you would design a generic FPS map.

Edited by AUSwarrior24, 09 March 2015 - 04:15 PM.

[Taemien]

AUSwarrior24, on 09 March 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

I'm still sad I never got to play LL before it got nuked, but I suppose it never had that many players in the first place. That said, there's usually a few people on depending on the time and just the other day I had a pretty fun Solaris game with four or five people.

That said, it's not the holy grail of MechWarrior games or anything. Obviously the quality of the game or mod is pretty much on par with an amateur modding team and as a result the models, animations and I suppose mech control mechanics feel and look clunky.

But I guess the sore spot is that despite that it still does better than MW:O in a lot of areas. The key, I think, was that LL and many of the previous games have been BattleMech simulator first and multiplayer shooter second. MW:O is obviously a multiplayer F2P arena shooter first and MechWarrior simulator second. Sure, MW:O might have much higher quality production values and a much smoother control system but other than that we're still playing generic shooter game modes on over-designed arena maps.

The biggest thing I miss about LL is their maps. Graphics aside, they felt like proper, realistic terrain. Size wise they created a much more intelligent gameplay style focused on terrain control rather than death ball skirmishes. I've never been a fan of how MW:O map design is approached as you would design a generic FPS map.

That's alot to say about something you said you never played.

In reality, mech to mech (eschewing the tanks, air, and battlearmor), MWO and MWLL were very similar in their implementation. The only differences was you could modify your mech in MWO, and missiles can't lock without a target in MWO (you can lock by putting the reticle over an enemy in MWLL). As well as the controls. MWO hammers MWLL there. The way a light can move is way way more fluid and responsive than MWLL's.

As far as shooters go, they were about the same. The game types were Base Assault (aka Conquest), and Solaris Arena (Skirmish).

And sorry to say.. that's how all MechWarrior games were before then. In NetMech (MW2) and MW3 (Pirates Moon had base assault, but that was a very small community) it was just 4v4. Kill, Respawn, Repeat. MW4 changed it up a tad with its CTF and KOTH.

In reality, Community Warfare's base assault is unique in the MechWarrior franchise. MWO is taking steps forward, not backward. What made MWLL really unique was the fact it was combined arms. That was cooler than hell. It had its issues, but it was fun.

[Sylonce]

Kristov Kerensky, on 09 March 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

MW3 was not a sim, it was an arcaded version of MW2, and that was on purpose ...

While MW2 was my baby due to it's story and game play in general, I thought what MW3 really excelled at was making a game involving big stompy robots actually feel like a game involving big stompy robots.

You can get knocked down; your mech can be cooled by water; you can blow craters on the ground; you can freaking step on people and hear them scream. Granted it didn't have the kind of 0 g space battles in MW2, but it did felt more sim-like.

[Lindonius]

KraftySOT, on 09 March 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

Call me crazy but youd think after all this time, and since the 'coming to jesus' moment last September, theyd just...do that.

It was all roses and taffy when they were back on the forums, there was a community movement to change ECM, CW was going to come out.

Now its twitter, PvE, and more CW maps without fixing the glaring issues with CWs foundation. Back to the usual PGI.

There are sadly, no new game mechanics even on the table any more.

They still haven't given us a fully realised and working UI, CW is a meagre shell of what we wanted, ECM is still broken, balance a joke, hit reg laughable, Paulconomy and ghost heat still an issue, no sign of knockdowns and collisions returning, or R&R, or destructable terrain, or working jump jets etc etc and you want NEW game mechanics?

You want the Moon on a stick!

[Rebas Kradd]

KraftySOT, on 09 March 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

Now its twitter, PvE, and more CW maps without fixing the glaring issues with CWs foundation. Back to the usual PGI.

...and quirks, Ghost Heat revisititation, role rewards, VOIP, faction chat, balance achieving its best state to this point, and the mechlab now being the thing pushing other priorities back instead of being pushed back itself. Be comprehensive if you're going to evaluate the state of the game.

I still don't know what people mean when they say balance is a "joke", sounds like frustrated exaggeration.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Krafty, the original MW2 was more of a sim but it was also more limited by hardware. It was built to run on a 486dx2 after all, and my cirrus logics 2meg video was able to run it very nicely, the 3dFX updated versions for the Voodoo cards came later, even sold as a special set, game/joystick/voodoo card bundles.

MW3 had very simlike features, but that was due more to the fact that the hardware could deal with more options. They added some nice features from TT, knockdowns due to damage and all that other great stuff, but they still went more arcade in actual gameplay, and that was by design. I do miss the arm targeting/firing system, wish PGI could work it in, but it's doubtful, not to mention it would really make the LCD crowd go nuts, 2 COMPLI..COMPLAK...HARD!

MW2's sim qualities and the fact that it was BattleTech are why us 'neckbeards' as you call us bought the game. The other 69.9 million in sales were people who bought it because it was a cool FPS game Big PR push for the game, LONG time in dev, 5 years, so it was really a big release when it happened.

MW4 was almost totally arcade, totally by design, MS started it in MW3 and finished it in MechAssault, MW4 being the transition stage. That was MS looking to capture the cross genre audience that made MW2 such a commercial success. They just went about it at the wrong time and in the wrong way.

MWO is still in progress, 3 years give or take, with almost a full year of that really being lost due to IGP's interests taking precedence over MWO development, from what Russ has said. I've called him a marketing weasel directly, so my personal views on him aren't hard to fathom, but I can see that as being the case with IGP. I'm personally used to a 3 year development process for a decent gold release game, so I figure they've got maybe 1 year to dazzle me still. They could do it, I've talked with some of the people doing actual codework, they share our frustrations about some things but they are working on it. Matthew has impressed me so far with the netcode issues, I know what he's up against and I'll give him more time. Even RSI is having fun with that side of it, CryTek, BEAUTIFUL graphics and decent physics, not so hot netcode, but you know that already, MW:LL team didn't sound too fond of the netcode either, it's just not meant to handle very many things at once, which means low player counts. RSI is talking about instances, they wanted to do at least 50 but I'm not sure how many they can do currently, far less than that I believe. The guy doing the work, Mas, knows his stuff, so there's some good signs there, and some distressing ones, because it's THAT hard that even RSI hasn't gotten it working after the same amount of time.

[DivideByZer0]

Ill say my piece,
MWLL was a good game, made by enthusiasts, not by a company. It was bound to run down eventually. BUT , here's what it had, created by a bunch of random people who weren't even getting paid:

-Destructible, interactive environments
-HUGE maps, plus community developed maps
-Mechs, Tanks, VTOL's, Aerospace, and body armor
-A FULL run of mech technology ages
-Variable temperature and gravity maps
-The ability to get in an out of mechs

Despite balance issues, I had a lot of fun playing this mod, and honestly, if it still had an active community, I would probably play it more than MWO.

[Rebas Kradd]

Kristov Kerensky, on 09 March 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

Krafty, the original MW2 was more of a sim but it was also more limited by hardware. It was built to run on a 486dx2 after all, and my cirrus logics 2meg video was able to run it very nicely, the 3dFX updated versions for the Voodoo cards came later, even sold as a special set, game/joystick/voodoo card bundles.

MW3 had very simlike features, but that was due more to the fact that the hardware could deal with more options. They added some nice features from TT, knockdowns due to damage and all that other great stuff, but they still went more arcade in actual gameplay, and that was by design. I do miss the arm targeting/firing system, wish PGI could work it in, but it's doubtful, not to mention it would really make the LCD crowd go nuts, 2 COMPLI..COMPLAK...HARD!

MW2's sim qualities and the fact that it was BattleTech are why us 'neckbeards' as you call us bought the game. The other 69.9 million in sales were people who bought it because it was a cool FPS game Big PR push for the game, LONG time in dev, 5 years, so it was really a big release when it happened.

MW4 was almost totally arcade, totally by design, MS started it in MW3 and finished it in MechAssault, MW4 being the transition stage. That was MS looking to capture the cross genre audience that made MW2 such a commercial success. They just went about it at the wrong time and in the wrong way.

MWO is still in progress, 3 years give or take, with almost a full year of that really being lost due to IGP's interests taking precedence over MWO development, from what Russ has said. I've called him a marketing weasel directly, so my personal views on him aren't hard to fathom, but I can see that as being the case with IGP. I'm personally used to a 3 year development process for a decent gold release game, so I figure they've got maybe 1 year to dazzle me still. They could do it, I've talked with some of the people doing actual codework, they share our frustrations about some things but they are working on it. Matthew has impressed me so far with the netcode issues, I know what he's up against and I'll give him more time. Even RSI is having fun with that side of it, CryTek, BEAUTIFUL graphics and decent physics, not so hot netcode, but you know that already, MW:LL team didn't sound too fond of the netcode either, it's just not meant to handle very many things at once, which means low player counts. RSI is talking about instances, they wanted to do at least 50 but I'm not sure how many they can do currently, far less than that I believe. The guy doing the work, Mas, knows his stuff, so there's some good signs there, and some distressing ones, because it's THAT hard that even RSI hasn't gotten it working after the same amount of time.

I would have to agree that PGI made a bad choice in choosing CryEngine. Just not very well optimized for demanding multiplayer stuff like this. Then throw in wholly server-side control and yikes.

[Jonny Slam]

Coolant, on 08 March 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

Don't miss it at all. Mektek was doing just fine having released 3 Mekpaks before MW:LL and was beta testing a 4th. Some of us remained loyal to MW4:Mercs and the nearly decade of fun, blood and tears.

Except for that bloody hack using weasel "Legend"! oh hated that pilot!