33 replies to this topic

[ManDaisy]

I'm going by Table Top here, and not past video games where mechs going boom was just a cop out cause it looks cool.

In table top there was really 4 main ways to die.

1) Pilot death /*eject ( does not result in mech blowing up )
2) Armor and internal being completely destroyed ( mech is destroyed but does not blow up )
3) Ammo explosion (usually just results in all internal being destroyed with chance of engine going crit along the way, although engine crit and ammo explosion are kinda similar, fusion engine explosion is a notch above)
fusion reactor explosion > ammo explosion
4) Having your engine take 3 ciritcal hits ( mech goes BOOM)

Just suggestings that devs dont take the easy way out such as in MW4 where all deaths result in your mech going boom.

Edited by ManDaisy, 23 November 2011 - 11:51 AM.

[DocBach]

In fact, no deaths should result in fusion reactor criticals. 'Mechs that are destroyed should pretty much fall over and not get back up.

Edited by DocBach, 23 November 2011 - 11:52 AM.

[Kudzu]

ManDaisy, on 23 November 2011 - 11:50 AM, said:

4) Having your engine take 3 ciritcal hits ( mech goes BOOM)

It's 4 engine critical hits in one turn (typically done by coring the center torso) and then passing a roll, actually.

Edited by Kudzu, 23 November 2011 - 12:13 PM.

[DocBach]

So what if your XL equipped 'Mech loses both left and right torsos in one turn? Does it go critical, or does it need to be four separate critical hit rolls each hitting the engine critical slots?

[Kudzu]

DocBach, on 23 November 2011 - 12:15 PM, said:

So what if your XL equipped 'Mech loses both left and right torsos in one turn? Does it go critical, or does it need to be four separate critical hit rolls each hitting the engine critical slots?

It has a chance to go critical-- the only criteria are that 4 engine crits are destroyed in one turn (either by actual crit hits or the section they're located in being destroyed.) I want to say the roll is 10+ on a 2d6, so even when the rule is used it's pretty rare.

[DocBach]

I'd like to see a couple of different destruction animations - if an ammunition explosion kills the 'Mech, I'd like to see it exploded in an awesome fireball like previous MechWarrior games. If its just a structure kill, or a reactor kill that didn't get the four critical hits, I'd like to see the 'Mech pretty much sputter out and die, leaving its husk on the field. The fusion reactor going critical should be a seldom even that occurs if only the right circumstances (like Kudzu described) occur.

[canned wolf]

Mechwarrior Living Legends has done a pretty good job with this. Reactor explosions are pretty rare, and very destructive. It makes everyone break off an run for it which can change the dynamic somewhat in a fight. I think puting an audible warning in the cockpit for when someone near is going critical should cover it.

Depending on how much ammo a mech is carrying, an ammo explosion should be able to seriously damage near by mechs as well.

[Xhaleon]

Kudzu, on 23 November 2011 - 12:18 PM, said:

It has a chance to go critical-- the only criteria are that 4 engine crits are destroyed in one turn (either by actual crit hits or the section they're located in being destroyed.) I want to say the roll is 10+ on a 2d6, so even when the rule is used it's pretty rare.

It's a whole lot less rare in Megamek in my experience. With the rule on, sometimes it feels like one in ten go kaboom, and that's a lot of nuclear explosions. Always happens when my people are gang-kicking the enemy, ALWAYS.

[Kudzu]

Xhaleon, on 23 November 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

It's a whole lot less rare in Megamek in my experience. With the rule on, sometimes it feels like one in ten go kaboom, and that's a lot of nuclear explosions. Always happens when my people are gang-kicking the enemy, ALWAYS.

Not trying to dismiss your argument but do you have logs to back up your feelings? People tend to remember the extremes more often than the average. And depending on if it's a 10+ or 11+ roll (Don't have my books handy at the moment) the chance for a Stackpole is 16.65% or 8.32% if the CT is cored.

Also, which era do you play most often? I've found that the more I see IS XL engines the fewer I see overall, as more mechs are killed by the knockout out of a side torso (only 3 engine hits) and not coring the CT.

[Xhaleon]

Kudzu, on 23 November 2011 - 01:36 PM, said:

Not trying to dismiss your argument but do you have logs to back up your feelings? People tend to remember the extremes more often than the average. And depending on if it's a 10+ or 11+ roll (Don't have my books handy at the moment) the chance for a Stackpole is 16.65% or 8.32% if the CT is cored.

Also, which era do you play most often? I've found that the more I see IS XL engines the fewer I see overall, as more mechs are killed by the knockout out of a side torso (only 3 engine hits) and not coring the CT.

That wasn't an argument, just plain ol' anecdotal storytiming.

I can't remember if they were XL mechs, but I guess that might have something to do with it. I tend to focus fire all my peeps so if I forget that the enemy is close to death, they might just eviscerate the poor guy so much that regardless if it was a standard Fusion or XL mech it gets a chance to blow.

Maybe that's the cause? I probably should cut back on the overkill...

>look for TacOps PDF
>reader settings has remember-page on
>immediately brings me to engine explosions paragraph
>

It's 10+ by the way.

[Moppelkotze]

canned wolf, on 23 November 2011 - 01:15 PM, said:

Mechwarrior Living Legends has done a pretty good job with this. Reactor explosions are pretty rare, and very destructive. It makes everyone break off an run for it which can change the dynamic somewhat in a fight. I think puting an audible warning in the cockpit for when someone near is going critical should cover it.

Depending on how much ammo a mech is carrying, an ammo explosion should be able to seriously damage near by mechs as well.

This.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Kudzu, on 23 November 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

It's 4 engine critical hits in one turn (typically done by coring the center torso) and then passing a roll, actually.

Exactly, in short, no Stackpoling.

Quote

Mechwarrior Living Legends has done a pretty good job with this. Reactor explosions are pretty rare, and very destructive. It makes everyone break off an run for it which can change the dynamic somewhat in a fight.

I'd simply make sure I'm 136 metres away from that 'mech when it blows, and watch the pretty fireworks.
Even at only 106m away, I wouldn't worry.

Quote

And depending on if it's a 10+ or 11+ roll (Don't have my books handy at the moment) the chance for a Stackpole is 16.65% or 8.32% if the CT is cored.

10+, or 12+ for combat/support vehicles and ASF.

[verybad]

ManDaisy, on 23 November 2011 - 11:50 AM, said:

I'm going by Table Top here, and not past video games where mechs going boom was just a cop out cause it looks cool.

Just suggestings that devs dont take the easy way out such as in MW4 where all deaths result in your mech going boom.

The mechs going boom wasn't for it to "look" cool, it was to get rid of excess polygons that weren't being used without having them simply disapear into thin air.MW4 has a maximum of 255 triangles per piece, initial models tended to be 1000 or fewer triangles, the map itself about 9000 IIRC. The engine (and concurrent video cards) simply had problems
with too many polygons.

This could still be a consideration depending on how long battles anf and how many dead mechs are lying around.. Character polycounts in Cryengine 3 can average around 10K. There's no good reason to keep them around, they take up space and don't add to the game. Additionally it is doubtful that the walking animation would take them into acount very well. (ie they'de be either blocks you couldn't get past or phantoms you'd go through.

The exploding mech is a simple and less unrealistic method to this problem than having mechs corpses laying around potentially indicing flag and or movement issues.

Most games with dying opponents have one method or another for getting rid of the trash.Take a look at modern games, say Battlefield 3 or COD:MW...

How many corpses remain....

It's not about looking cool, it's about performance.

Edited by verybad, 23 November 2011 - 09:21 PM.

[feor]

Quote

It's not about looking cool, it's about performance.

Though the looking cool does help.

But seriously, this is one more thing they need to find a balance for. Just went back and played MW2:Mercs, and most mechs in there exploded harmlessly when killed, or if you got lucky and hit the cockpit, stood there immobile for the rest of the game.

But in MW4 every dead mech was a critical reactor. you couldn't be within a dozen feet of the thing without losing most of the armour on your mech.

There should certainly be a chance of a reactor overload, but most destruction should just feature the mechs falling over and fading into the background as soon as they're not on anyone's screen anymore.

[DocBach]

MechWarrior 3 kept all of the blown up 'Mechs in the game without making them go poof - their skins even looked all shot up and damaged. If there isn't respawn, the engine should be able to handle the corpses, as the dead 'Mechs will likely have less polygons (locations blown off and the such), so they won't need to evaporate.

[verybad]

Polygons are polygons. If your'e playing a long game and they add up in an area, you can end up with hardware lage.

MW3 had some good points, but it was horrific to play on line regarding lag, so using it as an example isn't so good...

[AlfalphaCat]

Don't worry, we Rangers will make up for the lack of critical explosions that you seek. Just you wait and see, it might be the only thing that
we really excel at.

[feor]

DocBach, on 23 November 2011 - 09:45 PM, said:

MechWarrior 3 kept all of the blown up 'Mechs in the game without making them go poof - their skins even looked all shot up and damaged. If there isn't respawn, the engine should be able to handle the corpses, as the dead 'Mechs will likely have less polygons (locations blown off and the such), so they won't need to evaporate.

Not all, I built a Nova (Blackhawk) with an ER Medium Laser in every arm and torso crit. I would run it up to enemy mechs, Alpha strike and turn myself into a crafter from the overheat.

[DocBach]

I did the same thing with my Daishi armed with 3 ER LL, 3 ER PPC, 3 ER ML, 1 LRM 20 - one alpha strike and all that remained was semi-destructible environment.

[Karyudo ds]

canned wolf, on 23 November 2011 - 01:15 PM, said:

Mechwarrior Living Legends has done a pretty good job with this. Reactor explosions are pretty rare, and very destructive.

And in Mechassault a reactor explosion killed everything right around it regardless of what it was.

Science however regrets to inform us that reactors of this type would NEVER "explode". Worst case there could maybe be some radiation. I wouldn't mind "realistic" for once. Some people claim this isn't Gundam...then mechs make giant Gundam explosions when they die so... Imagine if your car instead of breaking down just completely exploded instead.