6 replies to this topic

[mad kat]

So addicted to this game and for the most part i like the mech designs and other bits but one thing i think this game has got so very very wrong is its water and it irks me every time i'm on a map with the lovely H2O. Lets face it last time you were at the seaside and you ran into the sea your velocity was impacted was it not. You could only run half as fast? slower even? yeah if its paddling depth barely at all but it doesn't have to get past your knees to seriously slow you down.

The resistance of water is massively overlooked in this game so too is it's cooling effect. Like quenching. you immerse a red hot piece of metal partially into water and what do you get? Rapid cooling, a lot of steam and depending on material a hardened surface or thermal shock stress if thin enough.

I can't say how hot a mech actually gets (despite damage glow indicating very, especially if receiving a PPC hit due to the nature of the weapon) so the hardening and shock stress thing may be completely irrelevant but none the less just in the same way that aircraft have limited flight cycles constant heating and cooling of a mech will have an effect on its structure and armour (albiet long term and not immediately dangerous in a match) and i feel this could do with being reflected in game even if it's just to a lower extent or dumbed down. I won't pretend to know enough about the science but i know enough to know that heat cycles would affect a mech.

If i'm blasting ppc's or lpl's in my Awesome 8Q and i'm getting a little toasty i should have a choice, stop firing. Carry on and shut down and be a sitting duck or take the chance wading into the water to shed my heat rapidly at the risk of going 30kph and taking minor internal damage (thermal shock stress). Lets face it you take an 80 ton walking machine into the sea its gonna disappear up to it's calfs in mud, silt, sand, dead fish whatever.

The water first and foremost needs to drastically slow a mech but to compensate for this it needs to have a benefit in the form of rapid cooling. Before you say the cooling system exclusively handles heat, take heat from the metal of the machine and the weapons (Not the reactor, good point Molossian) etc will cool in turn due to heat transfer. If this is too much of an advantage and you find laser vomit and ppc boats sitting in the water spewing energy at their foes remember they will be very slow and if theyre heat gets too high they should take some form of momentary damage (i'd prefer internal) from thermal shock.

You could also argue water resistance is based on the shape size and weight of mech too, for example a raven with skinny legs, big feet and elongated torso would probably see the least resistance in water, a locust may not be too bothered in shallow water but in deep bits like river city and forest colony where its pretty much submerged its speed should be massively cut. Fat legged mechs like the awesome, Jager and thunderbolt likewise should have a severe speed penalty due to their huge legs and maybe chicken walker mechs like the catapult, cataphracht, timberwolf etc actually have a lesser velocity hit.

Edited by mad kat, 02 June 2015 - 07:34 AM.

[cyberstrabadi]

Well said Mad.
There`s something else you overlooked.If the mech`s legs are only diped in , then it should not have any cooling bonuses unless it carries single HS and its placed in the legs.Also under water balisticks do not work(fire a bullet in a tank and you`ll see) and lasers loose more than 80% of their strength (due to water/cooling barrier).As for ppc and sorts no RL testing has been ever performed ofcourse , but they should fall under the laser`s law.Only thing that should actually work under water are missiles and them at a seriously reduced speed.Ofcourse if you cannot shoot then you cannot get shot by the same principals.

But let`s be real.If PGI wanted this game to thrive they`d just fix the F******IN hit registration that so many people(me included) are complaining all the time.I do not know why PGI will not give a good game and fall from 1 "mistake" to the other.

[Molossian Dog]

This borders on real world physics. And everyone knows we -evidently- can´t have physics.

What we have are objects made of indestructible, sticky rubber, warp portals shrouding each mech and anti-grav holes on hill slopes reacting to hover jet propellants.

In case any dev accidentally happens to stumble upon this thread I will put my thoughts (or rather my wishlist) in spoiler tags so they don´t bother anyone.

Spoiler

Slowing down comments:

Good, provided it reflects how deep a Mech is immersed in the water. Completely hull down should have consequences for speed as well as torso twist, for example, while ankle deep should only slow you down slightly. I especially like the idea to link the maneuverability effect to the shape and mass of the mech in question. A relatively slim Raven should handle quite differently that the barn broad Awesome for instance.
(Not that I am keen on indirectly nerfing the Awesome anymore, mind you. Just an example.)

Heat comments:

Lore wise Mechs are insulated as all hell, which makes them operable in space as well as in the desert. But their heat sinks are actually heat pumps and directing heated up coolant to a surface area (or even venting it in case of too much pressue , depicted in MWO by "coolant shots") are standard procedures.

Game wise I´d let water have a noticeable cooling boost effect for the submerged heat sinks. And only those not installed in the engine because that has quite a heavy insulation on its own. (Remember, fusion reactor...)
But this should come with some drawbacks as well. (besides the maneuverability) The cooling effect should be only temporary. As soon as the water heats up too much it won´t have any real effect on the Mech anymore. (Yes, yes, rivers. I know. When we got all the above implemented we can talk about rivers.) That also discourages permanent half submerged camping.
Additionally this should produce steam. Like a lot. Enough to blind yourself, to light up on heat sensors like a christmas tree and make anyone within LOS aware of your position.


Weaponry comments:

Lore wise all weapons that aren´t specifically designed for underwater warfare (torpedos) would be affected. While a cone of fire and drastically reduced effective/max range could work for a couple of weapon types like lasers and ballistics another idea would be to tie it to projectile speed. With a Gauss bullet being as fast as it is it should still feel the effect while a big calibre AC/20 with a lower muzzle velocity would be effected most drastically. As far as missiles go since we evidently cannot have different ammo types (see the LBX disaster) which precludes loading torpedos into your racks, I´d just make them inoperable and leave it at that.

The real challange with weapons would be to make the engine calculate if any given hardpoint is submerged or not, how far each beam/projectile travels beneath the water surface, what to do if it leaves or enters the water (cause you trade shots with someone outside the water) and so on.
Speaking from experience I don´t think PGI will ever be capable of implementing such complex calculations without either lots of asynchronous glitches, serious FPS drops or even more unpredictable hitrekt.

Damage comments:

The tabletop handles it like a submarine, meaning that as soon as a components armour is "breached" the internals become inoperable automatically. Kinda weird and makes you wonder if the individual criticals like actuators, heat sinks etc aren´t encapsulated on their own.
You suggested gradual internal damage (tied to the heat idea). I wouldn´t go that way because it is kinda questionable that a war machine designed for extreme hot and cold enviroments would handle thermal shock stress that badly.

Both alternatives might make the whole "save yourself from a shutdown by jumping into the water" idea rather unattractive. And if all this here achieves is making people avoid water like the plague we haven´t added an additional risk/reward layer to the game but restricted it even more.

Instead I would go for increased chances of receiving critical hits when you are hit underwater. And only on "breached" (meaning no armour left) and submerged components. Explain it away with internals being more vulnerable to pressure, shorting out circuits and steam explosions or whatever.

From a gameplay point of view this would make throwing yourself into the water a risky thing when you are already badly hurt and under fire, while you still can exploit the cooling boost when you are far away or make sure you can break line of sight before you go for a refreshing little dip into the waves. It would also reward people knowing where they installed what component as well as rewarding those who can read the flow and ebb (ha!) of the battle. -->Risk/reward.
Because when someone jumps you while you are having downtime and paddling away happily you could be quite in trouble.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 02 June 2015 - 06:19 AM.

[Draykin]

Last I checked, there is an in-game mechanic for faster cooling in water if you have heatsinks equiped in your legs, a feat only capable by those with Single Heatsinks (You poor souls) and Clan 'mechs.

[50 50]

You could add to the movement effect the strength of the water current as well... but at what point does it all get a little too much and detract from the game more than it adds.

I like the idea that moving into water should impact the speed. Perhaps the movement archtypes could be applied here as they are for navigating elevations. That might be really quick to implement and test.

Fairly sure that if you have heat sinks in the legs they are meant to provide a cooling bonus. Pretty difficult to actually tell if they are though.

For weapons, yep, just missiles at a reduced range and velocity. Could argue that ballistic weapons and/or the Gauss Rifle may still function.
The problem here might be in working out how to handle weapons fired into the water more than what to do with weapons fired while submerged.

Should we get some sort of island archipelago map with large areas where a mech can be completely submerged it would be nice to see some additional effects.

[Fireeagle]

well basical cryengine does allready have some kind of watertraveling speed implemented: called swimming all pgi would need to do is to define: as soon as mech is in water deeper than 5 meters you will have to use swimming speed....

[mad kat]

That last point shouldn't be too difficult to implement.......

I understand that there are a lot of real world physics involved here and there will be a point of diminishing returns in respect to 'how far can you go'. But as it stands the water in game is unaceptable really.

Some very good point have been brought up that perhaps are more realistic in terms of implementation. I'd settle for a velocity impact at the benefit of lets say heatsinks really working at 200% strength rather than the 140% strength for double heat sinks but only when lets say 50% for arguments sake of the mechs height is immersed in water and with lets say leg destroyed speed when in water. And if it affects torso twist speed that would give many energy based assault pilots a real dilema, have the ability to unleash electrical hell but be practically a turret. I can imagine the Direstar pilots thinking Hmmmm and hiding in the water right at the border of the map to prevent people from getting behind them.

If in Lore a mechs actuators etc are instantly compromised when immersed in water when armour has been breached i think that would be unfair on the game as Molossian sais people would avoid the water like the plague then so maybe light internal damage is an option either that or the velocity cut. But either way exposed internals, electrical circuits hell even the myomers are controlled by electrical signals surely immersing them unprotected in water should be in some way detrimental.

Edited by mad kat, 03 June 2015 - 05:16 AM.