106 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

reddevil, on 11 March 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

RNG's do not kill FPS sims. How are your crits handled? Missile hit chance and location? Scatter on LBX, machine guns, and a myriad of other RNG actions going on behind the scenes?

They're handled with a random number generator.

Crits: Yeah, those are random, but since MWO crits aren't as brutal as TT (i.e. can't get engine instantly critted out by a single Medium Pulse Laser while armor is still intact) it doesn't matter nearly as much.

Missiles: LRMs mostly cluster around center mass, usually. Or legs depending on target speed (and/or if jumping). Streaks are basically random and it's why they're such a poorly balanced "all or nothing" type weapon.

LBX: The scatter's radius is reliable enough that it doesn't impact its performance too much, compared to just having an exact fixed pellet formation for each shot. The spread is just a bit too wide for practical use beyond about 200m or so.

MGs: It's one of the reasons why they're poop here, and why MG range quirks/modules are pointless.

Edited by FupDup, 11 March 2015 - 01:55 PM.

[KraftySOT]

Turn 10:

A parting gift to the last civvie powerloader
Powerman XI LoaderMech (SRM) ([color="80c0c0"]Civilians[/color]) needs to avoid critical damage due to being hit by a physical attack.
Critical hit on RA. Roll is (10+2) = 12; 2 locations.
CRITICAL HIT on Shoulder.
CRITICAL HIT on SRM 4.

Aerofighter returns




Alright now it gets interesting.

The Warrior is taking an AC2 shot at the immobile tanks, and providing sensor data via its c3 link (NOT spotting) to the LRM Carrier, giving it the ability to fire its 3 LRM20s at the Phoenix Hawk even tho it jumped at a 7 to hit (pretty darned good at night, seriously).

The shot its taking against the immobile tank ALSO works with the C3 master in the Transit (my custom addition, oh yeah real mechlab) giving it a 6 to hit with its weapons (an AC/20 is one of them) against the tank.

Meanwhile the Vindicator fires its PPC at the other Drac tank with a low chance to hit, but a possible knock out if it hits.

Davers, on 11 March 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

Notice how all the weapons considered bad are RNG?

Wut like Splat (SRMs)?

*drops the mic*




Phoenix Hawk down.

LRMS are OP.

20 missile(s) hit (using Rear table).


I havent seen this happen with an LRM20 in maybe 10 years. And I play ALL the time.

Edited by KraftySOT, 11 March 2015 - 02:04 PM.

[Davers]

KraftySOT, on 11 March 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

Wut like Splat (SRMs)?

Since they removed the broken splash damage, haven't seen too many SRM boats around. When is the last time you saw an A1 Splatcat?

But I do not want to derail your wonderful thread.

[KraftySOT]

Davers, on 11 March 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

Since they removed the broken splash damage, haven't seen too many SRM boats around. When is the last time you saw an A1 Splatcat?

But I do not want to derail your wonderful thread.

All the time, Splathawks and SplatStalkers are still a Thing™, as well as Splatcrows that you see regularly in CW. You sometimes see SplatCats, but I cant tell you the last time I saw a Splatapult.

[Metus regem]

KraftySOT, on 11 March 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

Alright now it gets interesting.

The Warrior is taking an AC2 shot at the immobile tanks, and providing sensor data via its c3 link (NOT spotting) to the LRM Carrier, giving it the ability to fire its 3 LRM20s at the Phoenix Hawk even tho it jumped at a 7 to hit (pretty darned good at night, seriously).

The shot its taking against the immobile tank ALSO works with the C3 master in the Transit (my custom addition, oh yeah real mechlab) giving it a 6 to hit with its weapons (an AC/20 is one of them) against the tank.

whoa full stop!

You sated in the OP that the date of this campaign game is November 30th, 3000. that's a good 50 years before c3 was developed by the DCMS....

So hacks or time travel?

[KraftySOT]

Oh and youre totally not derailing, these kinds of questions/discussions are why I did this. Not just to show off my awesome Megamek skills.

Though thats part of it.

[KraftySOT]

Metus regem, on 11 March 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

whoa full stop!

You sated in the OP that the date of this campaign game is November 30th, 3000. that's a good 50 years before c3 was developed by the DCMS....

So hacks or time travel?

Starleague.

You have several options for buying things/acquiring things, as well as building your initial forces. I have a handful of "OOTL" (out of timeline, which is a megamek option) items. c3, I have an ERLL, and I have 20 or so tons of ferro armor. I started with that (rich uncle!), and have since acquired a Sword (not a melee wep until 3060 or so) from some black market traders.

I also saw a 2650 Otscout with an ERLL in a battle, but I couldnt salvage it.

You gotta remember everything is in the 'loot lists' all the way back to the Starleague. It just has SERIOUS penalties to even find it, let alone acquire it. Even on the battlefield, you might run into that 2700 Warhammer with its ERPPCs, but stopping that beast generally means blowing it to kingdom come, not giving much in the way of salvage.

Its not simply a case of "oh this is 3050, it cant be in 3000". Most stuff was better, 900 years ago. Alot of that stuff is still around lore wise.

[RedDevil]

Davers, on 11 March 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

Notice how all the weapons considered bad are RNG?

RNG is not why people complain about them. ECM and damge is. Other weapons that people complain about: PPC's, Gauss charge, Clan UACs. RNG is not a prerequisite to being bad.

And this is on topic, as the beauty of table top is managing chances to hit. Maximizing your hit chance, while minimizing your opponents. It's very strategic. This thread is showing a lot of the beauty that RNG is.

Let's not be black and white. It has it's place in FPS. The most popular FPS sims in the world use RNG. Flight sims, Soldier FPS's, empire managers, global outbreaks, actually every good game out there. I want to play Battletech like KraftySOT is describing, not Quake.

I like MWO, but it could be so much more like BattleTech.

In the end; different strokes for different folks

Edited by reddevil, 11 March 2015 - 02:16 PM.

[Metus regem]

KraftySOT, on 11 March 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

Starleague.

You have several options for buying things/acquiring things, as well as building your initial forces. I have a handful of "OOTL" (out of timeline, which is a megamek option) items. c3, I have an ERLL, and I have 20 or so tons of ferro armor. I started with that (rich uncle!), and have since acquired a Sword (not a melee wep until 3060 or so) from some black market traders.

I also saw a 2650 Otscout with an ERLL in a battle, but I couldnt salvage it.

You gotta remember everything is in the 'loot lists' all the way back to the Starleague. It just has SERIOUS penalties to even find it, let alone acquire it. Even on the battlefield, you might run into that 2700 Warhammer with its ERPPCs, but stopping that beast generally means blowing it to kingdom come, not giving much in the way of salvage.

Its not simply a case of "oh this is 3050, it cant be in 3000". Most stuff was better, 900 years ago. Alot of that stuff is still around lore wise.

Good enough for me, just saw that bit about the c3, and was like "Wut?"... I try to limit the items I use in MM, to timeline, but I should try the campaign mode more, for some of these things... when I can't make the weekly campaign game with the guys.

[Davers]

reddevil, on 11 March 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

RNG is not why people complain about them. ECM and damge is. Other weapons that people complain about: PPC's, Gauss charge, Clan UACs. RNG is not a prerequisite to being bad.

And this is on topic, as the beauty of table top is managing chances to hit. Maximizing your hit chance, while minimizing your opponents. It's very strategic. This thread is showing a lot of the beauty that RNG is.

Let's not be black and white. It has it's place in FPS. The most popular FPS sims in the world use RNG. Flight sims, Soldier FPS's, empire managers, global outbreaks, actually every good game out there. I want to play Battletech like KraftySOT is describing, not Quake.

I like MWO, but it could be so much more like BattleTech.

In the end; different strokes for different folks

Oh I definitely agree that Krafty's version of BT (I say that, since I never used all the extra rules that he is using. Mine was a more vanilla BT I guess) was what people really wanted- a FPS version of Megamek. It would have been awesome they had done that.

[KraftySOT]

Turn 11:

Phoenix Hawk gets up but only gets one hex over.

Aero flies off map.

Mediums move into range, Wolvie and Vindicator hop the woods to get into the fight.

A bad PSR for the Warrior sends it into a spin losing a level of altitude, it recovers.



Pieces of mechs litter the ground now.



The immobilized tank is dispatched, its crew escapes unharmed. No other meaningful damage.

Turn 11:

My forces continue to break through the woods and tangle with the now lone Phoenix hawk.

After recovering from the spin, my Warrior VTOL goes back to spotting a new target for the LRM carrier, the other Drac tank. 7s to hit again, this should remove this threat once and for all.



And this was all it took for all the firepower launched at it:
Weapons fire for Wolverine WVR-6M
Large Laser at Vedette Medium Tank (Standard)); needs 8, rolls 12 : - Direct Blow - hits FR
Vedette Medium Tank (Standard) () takes 9 damage to FR.
Armor destroyed, 3 Internal Structure remaining
Critical hit on FR. Roll is (12+1) = 13; Crew killed.

Never pays to drive a tank in a world of Mechs.

As if that wasnt bad enough
Vedette Medium Tank (Standard) () takes 2 damage to LS.
SECTION DESTROYED,
Chance for motive system damage. Roll is 4; (w/ +0 bonus)
no effect.
Critical hit on LS. Roll is 10; Fuel Tank Hit (Vehicle Explodes).

The fuel tank has exploded, ensuring that every crew member died a very horrible, and very intensely hot, death.
*throws a chair*
Physical attacks for Vindicator VND-1X
Kick (Left leg) at Phoenix Hawk PXH-1 (Draconis Combine); needs 5, rolls 4 : [color="808080"]misses[/color].

Vindicator VND-1X must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (missed a kick).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 0 (missed a kick)); needs 5, rolls 4 : falls.
Vindicator VND-1X (Kraft n STD) goes back to the hull down position instead of falling to the ground.


On a FIVE TO HIT lol

Metus regem, on 11 March 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

Good enough for me, just saw that bit about the c3, and was like "Wut?"... I try to limit the items I use in MM, to timeline, but I should try the campaign mode more, for some of these things... when I can't make the weekly campaign game with the guys.

Yeah I have the basic procurement set to only have things available by timeline. The campaign procurement through my admins/dynamic market, that can be more open as well as possible enemies especially for big houses or merc groups. Though only pirates and the black market sells stuff OOTL, and you might not even get what you paid for. You want an ERPPC and you get a heatsink.

At least my Vindicator fell to a hull down position and took no damage

Thats what he gets for having the Hot Dog quirk. That pilot can do nifty things like that. Also why his to hit for a kick against a target in the woods was so good.

Edited by KraftySOT, 11 March 2015 - 02:29 PM.

[Metus regem]

KraftySOT, on 11 March 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

Yeah I have the basic procurement set to only have things available by timeline. The campaign procurement through my admins/dynamic market, that can be more open as well as possible enemies especially for big houses or merc groups. Though only pirates and the black market sells stuff OOTL, and you might not even get what you paid for. You want an ERPPC and you get a heatsink.

Dirty Pirates.... better to just kill 'em and be done with them.... still you might get a warship.... decisions, decisions....

[Vandul]

What a great read. Nice work that Krafty

[Fiona Marshe]

I have the same luck with the MAD-3R. TAC to RT = AC5 ammo goes boom *every time*.

I've never lost Marauder to normal damage.

[Alek Ituin]

Metus regem, on 11 March 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

Dirty Pirates.... better to just kill 'em and be done with them.... still you might get a warship.... decisions, decisions....

If that Warship has a chance of containing a Naval Autocannon 40, TAKE IT.

[KraftySOT]

Do I wish to use Careful Stand? Why yes, dont mind if I do.

For what its worth.

THIS IS WHY YOU HAVE HAND AND ARM ACTUATORS:



Its not just there to keep you from mounting two Gauss rifles or something silly like that.

Fortunately my Vindicator pilot is a boss.
Vindicator VND-1X must make a piloting skill check (Right Arm hand Actuator missing/destroyed).
Needs 4 [5 (Base piloting skill) - 2 (careful stand) + 0 (getting up) + 1 (Right Arm hand Actuator missing/destroyed)], rolls 6 : succeeds.




And thats it. I am victorious. The last civilian transport left the map. Erwin Gale is still unconscious in the woods somewhere. The Phoenix Hawk with their unit commander has fallen with massive LRM20 hits again, and destroyed his hand actuator, thus preventing him from being able to get back up reasonably. Im going to role play it a bit here, since destroying everything and killing everyone isnt lore correct OR in my best interest with regards to salvage AND my dragoons rating (better contracts wth a higher rating, murdering people isnt how you get a higher rating).

/victory

To add insult to injury, I still had a physical attack phase to go, and figured why not. This happened:
Physical attacks for Wolverine WVR-6M
Kick (Left leg) at Wasp WSP-1A (Draconis Combine); needs 6, rolls 7 : [color="008000"]hits[/color] (using Kick table) RL
Wasp WSP-1A takes 11 damage to RL.
11 damage transfers to RT.
Wasp WSP-1A takes 11 damage to RT.
SECTION DESTROYED,
LIMB BLOWN OFF Right Arm blown off.
9 damage transfers to CT.
Critical hit on RT. Roll is (3+2) = 5; no effect.
Wasp WSP-1A takes 9 damage to CT.
Armor destroyed, SECTION DESTROYED,
Wasp WSP-1A has taken 6 engine hits this phase.
Checking for engine explosion on 10, roll is 7.
Engine safety systems remain in place.
*** Wasp WSP-1A DESTROYED by damage! ***
Critical hit on CT. Roll is (8+2) = 10; 1 location.
CRITICAL HIT on Standard Gyro.

I kicked the wasp so hard in the right leg, that my Wolverines foot continued up through the hip, into the right torso, and then into the center torso, completely destroying its standard engine, and was as damaging the gyro systems.

Fortunately it didnt explode. The safety systems remained functioning and shut down the core before it went super nova in my face. (the other reason you dont blow up everything)

Metus regem, on 11 March 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

Dirty Pirates.... better to just kill 'em and be done with them.... still you might get a warship.... decisions, decisions....

So far ive been renting my transport, and drop ships. Im going to buy one as soon as I get 100 million cbills. Cuts out costs in the future and I can repair between missions in a hangar instead of at a field base, which is better rolls for my techs.

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 11 March 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

my aversion to it in TT, comes from losing WHM-6R's to a single MG round, and having it crit the MG ammo in the WHM-6R... happens a little too often to me for my liking....

Still I would really like to see a real critical hit system in MWO....

Even the autocannons aren't single rounds.

Spoiler

They're not even tank rounds.

So it isn't a single 'MG' round. MGs on the left of this image.

It's the constant fire of MGs that eventually gets into your armor for that lovely crit.

Now, one of the on-going concepts I've got in an on-going design document removes the RNG of crits altogether in favor of location-specific points for equipment. Before an example, let us examine the fact that mechs are supposedly allotted a limited number of ammunition bins.

As demonstrations the advantage a Cataphract 4X has that puts it in high favor over the Cataphract 3D (when ammo types begin to release for different kinds) is that the 4X has 4 ammo bins while the 3D has only 2. This also goes along the customization rules that most exchanges can only occur with similar stuff. Such as you can change out missiles but swapping out an LRM-5 for an SRM-2 is easier than swapping out an SRM-2 with an LRM-20. There's also many limited space despite having lots of free slots; an example being the Atlas's 5 tube LRM-20 launcher on most variants (except the K[urita], S-2[Steiner-2], and C[omstar] variants where they removed the SRM-6 pack to install a full-size LRM-20.

Now with that established, it's pretty obvious that you have X amount of internal space before you start mounting things on your exterior. I'm using this image as an example, it's pretty clear you can hit that ammo. So why not allow it?


Lets go farther. What if you were to target where the ammo is stored and consistently hit that area? Eventually you'll get through the armor and hit it.

To cite a specific mech: The Hunchback 4G.
As some of us know, the Hunchback 4G is supposed to be about 6 meters shorter than it is in MWO. (It is 13.6 meters in MWO, where in BT it is the same height as a Commando, which is 8.3 meters tall... MWO's Commando is 9.7 meters tall). The windows shown are frequently demonstrated in BT books to be only large enough for the head and shoulders to be visible within the mech.

The point is that the mech by lore is too small to store its ammo within the actual shape of its body (like a Cataphract would), and instead it is depicted with an ammo pack on its left shoulder in the tech manuals as well as almost all artwork. This has even crossed over to MWO.

Shoot that pack at a specific weakspot with enough firepower in a certain allotment of time, and you could get a through armor critical.

Or if we are ray-tracing glancing/direct blows rather than simply "we barely hit it at all with our weapon" / "I put all 50 rounds directly into the rear LT!", then you can ray trace whether or not a shot hit a weak point or 'space' in the armor such as hitting the feeding mechanism directly.

For other crits: Consider the Quickdraw. A design quirk is that it has hyper-extending actuators allowing it to fold the arms behind itself to shoot backwards. That'd be awesome, right? It also has the negative quirk of exposed actuators. No protection. Here, you can see armored plates extend out to protect the lower arm actuators (elbows), but only on the outside, and not directly behind (or if folded backwards not directly in front), so if you can use genuine skill to hit those actuators -- there's your critical which is easier to achieve in BT in spite of armor. In this case a through armor critical would be to hit one of those armored panels hard enough to go through it. But unless you're hitting 10 to 15 damage in a single blow to beat the BAR (Barrier Armor Rating) of 10, or using explosives that could hurt it... you're not very likely to do so.

If it is not obvious from what was said earlier; I'm hashing this out from a complete redesign of a Battletech Simulation rather than trying to fit this idea into MWO.

[KraftySOT]

Alright, smokes, then the mission wrap up and debrief stats/salvage/repairs.

[KraftySOT]

Ill do this one real fast since its still in the battle thing.







Staff Sargeant Lewis Partridge got himself 2 kills in the Wolverine I wasnt even sure would show up in time to make a difference.

SS Janiya Shi, got a kill in his Vindicator.

Both Wasps, the Galleon light tank, and my Pegasus are salvagable. The Vedette that exploded into a giant fireball, is not.

We let the Phoenix Hawk and his pilot keep his mech. Good fight sir. Send my regards to Drac high command, tell em we dont take checks.

[SweetJackal]

KraftySOT, on 11 March 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

Wanted to drop this here too:
Phoenix Hawk PXH-1 ([color="80b080"]Draconis Combine[/color]) gains 15 heat, sinks 10 heat and is now at 5 heat.
Phoenix Hawk PXH-1 needs a 10+ for coolant failure, rolls 8 : avoids successfully!

Id love this in MWO. A coolant failure will make disapating heat next turn harder. This is at FIVE heat.




Youd accomplish that with checking the ray trace or hit angle. A mech moving laterally and you hit them at an angle, thats glancing. If theyre standing still or coming straight at you, thats direct.

Everything inbetween is a regular hit.

In some weird way we have that now with "lag shields" but it doesnt really work for every mech equally. And its because of a faulty system not a game device.

I wouldn't enjoy a chance for coolant failure in MWO as we still are sitting in a game where heat dissipation isn't strong enough to match the pacing of the rest of the game and SHS is not viable on hot maps (a spider with two ML would have to wait close to two minutes to cool off while moving if he reached 99% heat.)

While I have entertained a number of means of means on aiming and changing how weapons work to hit the target I haven't entertained the notion of glancing hits in the way you've described or other means of changing the way we do damage. More recently I've been playing Warthunder and that game's damage model uses interior components within the vehicle itself, to kill or disable you need to hit vital points within the target. This is drastically different from the norm for most games, gives reason to various armor types and honestly has some drastic balance problems due to that WW2 armor is handled in Penetration/Deflection and their own Battle Rating system but I do believe that such a system could enhance MWO if adopted only for the means of how damage is dealt to internal structure.

I'm getting sidetracked though, the game uses a glancing hit model like you are suggesting to a different armor system and I find that it works well. MWO could benefit more from looking at optional rules in BT and bringing them from a RNG/TT environment to a FPS/Sim environment.

I like your suggestion.