347 replies to this topic

[Red Beard]

StandingCow, on 01 July 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

Some people really don't understand what pay to win really is.

Pay to win is when you can buy, with real money, an item that is better than anything else that cannot be acquired in game through normal means (without the use of real money).

Being able to buy a powerful weapon ahead of time, that is also able to be gotten through normal means is not pay to win.

XP boosts are not pay to win as it does not directly affect your effectiveness in battle.

I find it distasteful how the commodity of time is considered inconsequential. If one person can buy a booster and acquire a more powerful weapon in, say, one week's time, so many of us are willing to be "ok" with the concept that, the player who does not buy a booster can.."still get that weapon with ingame cash, but it will take more time". That is simply an excuse to not consider boosters p2w. Kind of the booster's "I am not a pay to win element" get out of jail free card.

Time is an essential element, and in real life, it makes all the difference. If one player can obtain a high level weapon faster, because they paid real cash to boost, that is most assuredly a tactical advantage. But only if you place any value on your time.

And...lets be realistic here. In the F2P, P2W argument, the pro-boosters folks like to tell you that boosters are there for those that have less time to play and grind. I know better. Boosters are going to see more use from the players that have all the time. In reality, boosters have the potential to widen the gap between player bases.

[Stray Ion]

Wow, 16 pages and no one else can point to an "official" post with anything that comes close to answering the F2P/P2W conspiracy.

Hearsay and flawed logic are one thing, fact is something different.

[Squigles]

Red Beard, on 01 July 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Time is an essential element, and in real life, it makes all the difference. If one player can obtain a high level weapon faster, because they paid real cash to boost, that is most assuredly a tactical advantage. But only if you place any value on your time.

Thing is, there are no "higher level weapons" in this era of Battletech, they've already come out and said as a new player with no money invested at all, you'll get to pick a mech from whatever weight class you want. Whether that be they give you enough C-bills to buy anything up to and including an assault mech, or there's just a list of chassis to pick from going up to assaults, I'm not quite sure. As far as the weaponry goes, very little is inherently better then anything else, it's all balanced by weight, criticals, damage, range, and heat output.

[Squigles]

Stray Ion, on 01 July 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Wow, 16 pages and no one else can point to an "official" post with anything that comes close to answering the F2P/P2W conspiracy.

Hearsay and flawed logic are one thing, fact is something different.

http://mwomercs.com/...e-free-to-play/

That's the 1st "offical" post on the subject, most other commentary by the dev's on the subject is actually buried in random threads (the dev's talk to us alot), I suggest spending a few hours going through the dev tracker, there's all sorts of nifty tidbits buried in there. Just make sure to read through the commentary in that post, there's alot of comments by Bryan in it

[Red Beard]

Stray Ion, on 01 July 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Wow, 16 pages and no one else can point to an "official" post with anything that comes close to answering the F2P/P2W conspiracy.

Hearsay and flawed logic are one thing, fact is something different.

New to the party eh?

Do some research before slingin around statements like that.

[Steffenximus]

Risky, on 30 June 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

Since the big whiny babies who can't afford said boosts came to the gaming community.

Not making fun of poor people, but it is kind of true.

I see you live in USA. Yes, your country is rich, your parents give you enough money to buy games, don't they ? You know what, you and all americans would starve to death if you had to live a single month in my country with the normal wage. No offense to spoiled rich brats.

[Gorith]

What needs to be understood is it's paying to be impatient. Being impatient does not make you any better or any more likely to win in combat.

Also what needs to be understood is that they cannot just give you everything unlocked instantly for free they still have to make money on something. It is a trade off as a F2P game they seem to be given the freedom to make the game as the see fit. If it was a retail game yes you would have everything unlocked up front but they would have to have a larger publisher and it would be more likely the publisher would have pushed (The bigger the publisher the more it seems like they need direct control over development) for certain "contemporary" aspects that may well have taken it from "mechwarrior" to something more akin to oh say mechassault.

Edited by Gorith, 01 July 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[Squigles]

Steffenximus, on 01 July 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

I see you live in USA. Yes, your country is rich, your parents give you enough money to buy games, don't they ? You know what, you and all americans would starve to death if you had to live a single month in my country with the normal wage. No offense to spoiled rich brats.

Thank you for blanket insulting an entire nation, please dislodge your cranium from your ****** and try being just a "mite" more civil in your future discourse.

[Stray Ion]

Squigles, on 01 July 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...e-free-to-play/

That's the 1st "offical" post on the subject, most other commentary by the dev's on the subject is actually buried in random threads (the dev's talk to us alot), I suggest spending a few hours going through the dev tracker, there's all sorts of nifty tidbits buried in there. Just make sure to read through the commentary in that post, there's alot of comments by Bryan in it

They do, but I am just curious if people actually read though the thread they are posting in.

In 9 minutes I found a post that for me answers the question. Only one person quoted me basically saying the Devs lie about it to make more money, then they mentioned something else with no proof to back them up. I am not about to go searching to back up a claim IMO I already disproved.

What I am getting at is, you don't want this to be a rage fest, find "official" proof to back up your answer. Who knows, we may have missed something. Like others, I wouldn't know about unless shown.

[Freakiie]

Boosts are P2W for the same reason that few days after official release these forums will be flooded by players that are complaining that founder mechs are OP, even after 10 non founders (the 30 founders are biased, so ignored straight away ) tell them the founder Atlas is exactly the same as the Atlas they're using.

You know why? Because people are sore losers. It's everyones fault, except their own. "P2W" "wallet warriors" "gold noobs" you name it, it just has gotten such an easy excuse. That guy spent real money and just beat me?! Must be because he spent real money! This game is sooo P2W! Dude... you just rushed into 4 enemy mechs, turning your back to the enemy Atlas while you were at it. No, you totally got beat by that Atlas because he's a founder.

[Stray Ion]

Red Beard, on 01 July 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

New to the party eh?

Do some research before slingin around statements like that.

The same can be said to you, I have read all 16 pages of this thread. If you have read them you will know of the post I referred too.

[Beep Pop]

Steffenximus, on 01 July 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

I see you live in USA. Yes, your country is rich, your parents give you enough money to buy games, don't they ? You know what, you and all americans would starve to death if you had to live a single month in my country with the normal wage. No offense to spoiled rich brats.

@ Steffenximus: please go read the code of conduct before posting something like that next time
http://mwomercs.com/conduct

[GuntherK]

Steffenximus, on 01 July 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

I see you live in USA. Yes, your country is rich, your parents give you enough money to buy games, don't they ? You know what, you and all americans would starve to death if you had to live a single month in my country with the normal wage. No offense to spoiled rich brats.

Actualy some of us live on not very wealthy countries, and some of us have to work hard for our money.
That said, its my money, i earned it and i will spend it werever i want .

I believe the folks at PGI like Russ Bullock and Bryan Ekman are passionate about mechwarrior and are risking alot in a project that nobody wanted to revive for years. I am thankfull for that and i am happy to be able to suport MwO.
But hey, i am a batletech buff, so no big news there .

Off to continue reading the first of the Camacho Caballeros trilogy.

[Squigles]

Stray Ion, on 01 July 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

They do, but I am just curious if people actually read though the thread they are posting in.

In 9 minutes I found a post that for me answers the question. Only one person quoted me basically saying the Devs lie about it to make more money, then they mentioned something else with no proof to back them up. I am not about to go searching to back up a claim IMO I already disproved.

What I am getting at is, you don't want this to be a rage fest, find "official" proof to back up your answer. Who knows, we may have missed something. Like others, I wouldn't know about unless shown.

Fair enough, although I guess I look at it this way. The dev's have said there will be no P2W. If you believe there will be P2W then, essentially, you're calling the dev's outright liars. If you believe the dev's are lying, no amount of links to dev statements will matter one whit. I suppose a link to a post would help for people who've never read anything to that effect though. So, http://mwomercs.com/...in/page__st__60

Very last post of that topic.

[Refizul]

Red Beard, on 01 July 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

You could ask the same question, but switch who you are saying that to. Why should you get early access simply because you showed up with your wallet. While that is not REALLY the heart of what they are doing, to many of us, that is how it all feels.

I would agree that buying a place in the beta is somewhat problematic. As there is also an open beta a little bit later I think it's not so bad. I would even say that all progress should be set to zero once the open beta starts. But that would probably extremly controversial.

Red Beard, on 01 July 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

I totally agree! While I have not seen enough of this game to shake even $30 out of me, I do not hold anyone's enthusiasm against them, even at the $120 level. If you are like most, you truly believe in PGI's efforts, and are willing to take a leap of faith. My hats off to those of you that take that stand.

Bottom line...PGI is in charge of making the game, IGP is in charge of taking your money and what they are going to charge for. The bean counters are ALWAYS in charge of the lifeblood of what goes on under the surface. Like it or not...

Fortunately I currently have enough money to make such investments. The negative side of that is that I have to work 700km from my home for the rest of the year. That means I'm a prime candidate for buying booster packs if I want to keep up with my friends. But that doesn't means I want to be able to buy a gun that does 200% damage. I would hope that that can also be said for the majority of this community.
As long as it is not possible to buy direct ingame power with real money I will probably be happy. And I would hope that the community would would react very negativ at every attemt to implement something like that in the game. For now, I trust in what the devs have stated and I will wait what comes.

[Antaumus]

no1madcow, on 01 July 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

I understand that I can get the same thing by playing longer, my point is that some of us would rather the playing field be EQUAL from the get go. WE don't want to have to work harder and longer than the people with money do just to be an equal. You say it just takes a little more time for the poor to be able to succeed in this game than the rich.

I am sorry for being so confrontational here but I was so excited when I heard there was going to be a NEW MechWarrior and it was going to be FREE to play. then several months later i get an email telling me that I can pay money to gain an advantage over the others in the game. Well you let the air out of my sail with that one guys.

In my opinion you are setting this game up to fail real fast with this type of misleading advertising. the game is NOT FREE when others get to pay for advantages, its only free to be a target for the paying customers

The idea behind f2p is there is no barrier to entry, you and all your friends can play the game, NO MONEY must be spent. As for being a target for paying customers that is just false, if you start in a mech and never change it your not gimped at all, other player may use money to put different weapons in there mech but it's all balanced.

Look at the catapult c1, 4 medium lasers and 2 lrm 15. You could take off a few lasers and put on lrm 20, your not op you just traded short range for long rage, you can now rain death a little better but are half as effective in close combat. I can see nothing that money will give other than variety. Go to sarna and look at the mech varients, there different not op, there are tonnage, crit slot and heat limits on all mechs money can't change that, only how you use those limits.

[Boris5134]

Gabopentin, on 01 July 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

And here we have a distinct point made by a Founder pack purchaser. I as someone on a very limited budget can play for 10, 12, 18 hours a day if I choose to and my oxy bottle doesn't run out at an inconvenient time and my health holds up. But cannot afford to pay $30 (£20) because of that budget. But time costs nothing to me. So Boris's IGC bonus ans XP bonus is cancelled out by the time factor. Well done Boris for making this important poin so simply and clearly:)

That is the basis of it really. I can't afford the time, but I can afford a booster that MIGHT help me in keeping up with someone who CAN play 8-18 hours a day for a week straight. I work full time with sometimes 8-12 hour shifts 5 - 6 days a week (and yes that 4 hours counts when you're doing physical labor in a place where the temperature reaches the tripple digits before the clock strikes noon and the humidity is 50%+). I come home from work dead tired on some days - I eat a meal, take an hour, maybe TWO at most to read up on news, do something fun, go to bed, wake up 05:00 - wash, rinse, repeat.

NOW - say someone can blow $120 AND spend 8-18 hours a day JUST playing - yea, they are GOING to be further along in their progress than I am, but I can still REACH that point without having to pay additional cash (or anything at all for that matter if I so chose - as I can not simply PAY to be further along, I STILL HAVE TO PLAY to advance), it will just take me longer. Everything (except for maybe vanity cosmetics - even then maybe they can be earned too?) will just take me longer - or by luck of the draw.

There is a point between where people PAY to gain an advantage in progress and simply paying for more advanced hardware. The two are simply NOT the same - and MWO is NOT a P2W - it is a F2P and P2A (accelerate).

Is this argument OVER yet or are some minds simply STUPID? Ignorance is being stupid without knowing it - STUPID is ignoring or disregarding what is BLATENTLY there in front of you. STUPID is ALSO doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Edited by Boris5134, 01 July 2012 - 02:06 PM.

[Stray Ion]

Squigles, on 01 July 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

Fair enough, although I guess I look at it this way. The dev's have said there will be no P2W. If you believe there will be P2W then, essentially, you're calling the dev's outright liars. If you believe the dev's are lying, no amount of links to dev statements will matter one whit. I suppose a link to a post would help for people who've never read anything to that effect though. So, http://mwomercs.com/...in/page__st__60

Very last post of that topic.

Although we share the same view point when it comes to this issue, I will say your "proof" is far superior than my "proof" from page 5.

IMO this is what these discussions (not just this thread) need. Get the facts out to those who either are too lazy to look for them or don't have the time to search.

[Yoringa]

XenomorphZZ, on 30 June 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/27/froze … s-new-map/

You know, I was just cruising along PCGAMER's newsite when I decided to read the comments in that particular MWO article I linked up there, and then I found a disturbing trend that has been creeping up in other various gaming forums and what not...

That suddenly XP and IGC (ingame currency) boosts are considered "pay2win" ...

keimosabe says:
03:44pm June 28 2012
AWESOME! Cannot wait to get back into my mech and... oh wait, it's "pay to win"
http://mwomercs.com/founders
never mind....

This is the comment chain in question. I find that since most games are correcting past F2P practices of "selling power", people complaining about any and all P2W aspects are shifting their focus on boosts... I find this a rather disturbing trend...

I know that in some game economies IGC boosts might actually be borderline P2W but in MWO in particular... its not like that at all... the IGC boost on the mechs in question is only 25%, comparing that to WoT's premium tanks, its quite smaller (though the two game's economies are somewhat different...)

What do yall think of this?

It's really just a matter of what is the assumed base line. If the only reasonable way to acquire items is to buy a boost, it's p2w to me. If the game is balanced on a reasonable accumulation of currency without the boost, then it's just a perk to me. It's all about the balance. You can balance C-Bill accumualtion around the premium accounts as baseline, which means not paying for premium is no longer an option. You can make a game that has a reasonable grind and still have people pay for stuff, you don't have to make it so the only option to play is to pay.

[Izac]

Its a matter of perspective:

• take a civilian and a spec ops guy (5 years in for example), give them the same gear and ask them to fight... who will win?
  
• take a civilian and give him all the awesome gear (guns, body armor, etc) and only give the spec ops guy (still five years in) a knife... who will win?
  
• Take a civilian and give him a knife, and give the spec ops guy (five years in) all the good gear, who will win?

F2P is the gear, five years exp fighting (for this example) is in game play time... who will win?