32 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Yes, folks, the Autocannon/20 does not deliver 20 damage from one slug. Only the Heavy Gauss Rifle can do that, and it's not in the game.

An autocannon that shoots 100 rounds of XX millimeter cartridges to deal 20 damage is called an AC/20, and you can only deal 20 damage to one bodypart at short range because Cone Of Fire makes it impossible to hit things at a longer range given the recoil from such a burst.

A gun that shoots the same exact XX millimeter cartridge in bursts of 10 will deal 2 damage, and deals it at long range because a burst of 10 is much easier to aim than a burst of 100. The projectile velocity will be the same, but Cone of Fire will determine effective range. Fewer shots per burst = smaller Cone of Fire = longer effective range.

So, the inarguable fact of BattleTech is that Autocannons are not single-slug guns, and you can shoot the same cartridge from an AC/20, and AC/10, and AC/5, and an AC/2. The only difference in these cases are the burst duration and the resulting Cone of Fire. The projectile velocity is the same, the rate-of-fire is the same, the only difference is the burst duration (given this scenario of identical cartridge calibers)

So, the idea of making Clan UAC firing in bursts of high-velocity slugs makes sense. The idea of IS AC firing single-slugs is not related to BattleTech lore in any way, because Inner Sphere Autocannons are burst-fire weapons that are subject to Cone of Fire, and this Cone of Fire determines maximum effective range.

______________________________________

You may have seen me utilize the term "Cone of Fire" several times... if this is a BattleTech game, then Autocannons are supposed to be burst-fire weapons, and their effective ranges are meant to be determined by Cone of Fire owing to the recoil generated from firing a large number of rounds in a single burst. No exceptions.

_______________________________________

So, how do we balance Clan UAC and IS AC? Well, since Clan UAC weigh less and take up less space, they should be firing a longer burst of smaller but faster projectiles,and IS weapons should be firing a shorter burst of stronger, but slower projectiles. The number of shots per burst will be determined by AC/ class, and the number of shots per burst will determine Cone of Fire.

Clan weapons will be more accurate owing to increased projectile velocity, IS weapons will hit harder within a smaller fraction of a second but you'll have to aim ahead more, and the CoF will match hand-in-hand with the burst duration, and match inversely with effective ranges of these weapons irrespective of Faction.

AC/20 class weapons can use generally larger slugs than smaller classes of AC if you want to. That would make sense, too, from a gameplay perspective. However, they are still supposed to be burst-fire.

That is how a "BattleTech game" would be balanced in a PvP environment.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 12 March 2015 - 09:42 PM.

[Kalo Shin]

"If this game doesn't have (X content), then it's not a battletechgame. "

That's a nice opinion.

[KraftySOT]

Kalo Shin, on 12 March 2015 - 09:45 PM, said:

"If this game doesn't have (X content), then it's not a battletechgame. "

That's a nice opinion.

16 posts.

Makes Battletech statement.

I blame Obama.

[Telmasa]

Meh.

I hate to be like this, but autocannons - as they exist currently, in game - feel perfectly fine to me, both on my IS and my clanner chassi.

Besides, it would be really difficult to distinguish between what you describe, LBXs, and (when they show up in game) Rotary ACs, if they all more or less are just mech-sized shotguns with varying ranges of effectiveness. I like it better how PGI's got it now.

[Mattiator]

Quote

Caliber is fluff for the size of the barrel that the shell or shells are fired from and no standard caliber has been set for any of the classes of Autocannon. Autocannon in a class vary by manufacturer and model. With the fluffed number of shells and caliber being specified, no Autocannon has been specified to be one shell fired for each "round" or burst of fire. Probable exceptions are the 185 mm ChemJet Gun Autocannon/20 mounted on the Demolisher combat vehicle and Monitor surface vessel or the 203 mm Ultra Autocannon/20 on the Cauldron-Born BattleMech.

There's a fair chance single-shot autocannons exist.

Edited by Mattiator, 12 March 2015 - 09:54 PM.

[ChapeL]

Define "perfectly fine" ... I mean sure IS ACs but clan ones are a rare sight ( outside of boating Dire Wolves) and for good reason.

Your second point I agree with however.

[CocoaJin]

I've also considered a mechanic that would allow us to fire any AC at least 750-1000m(AC/2s would still go further) with full damage, but all ACs would have to burst and have the appropriate recoil impact of the firing mech(not the cross hair/reticle), but also CoF and cross hair/reticle bloom to indicate dispersion.

So even though AC20s would still deadly at close range, the 20pt of damage would still be spread around a bit for any shot around 300m, increasing in spread the farther you. In this case the AC20 would fire perhaps 4 5pt rounds. They would have a dispersion that should deliver all 5 rounds and their combined 20pts of damage into the CT of a typical medium at 270m(this assumes a stationary target, though good gunnery would allow for hits on the move also, it'll just be harder)

This same dispersion would result these same 5 rounds be spread about on a typical medium mech at 500m...likely 2-3 hits about the torso, 1-2 hits on extremities, possibly 1 round missing( it all depends on the lay out and orientation of the target mech)...so we are looking at about 15-20 damage spread over the mech.

By the time you get out to 750m you like only hitting with 2-3, they are spread all over the medium mech for 10-15 damage.

So why would anyone bring a lighter AC? Precision at range, rate of fire, combat/ammo endurance. You could still have higher DPS with lighter ACs, you have more ammo and greater potential damage output per yon of ammo, you can deliver your damage with precision at greater range due less dispersion/bloom and less recoil to distract you.

[Soy]

lol

[monk]

I think it would be interesting to see your idea in action, but I imagine the already heavily-loaded servers would struggle to handle so many rounds. I imagine you'd need to scale it back a lot and or fake a few things behind the scenes to make it work.

I don't run clan mechs, so I can't really speak on their AC effectiveness, though the general consensus seems to be that they are not really good. I do not enjoy being hit by them, however. The impulse shake can be worse than LRM storms in some cases.

[Kalo Shin]

KraftySOT, on 12 March 2015 - 09:49 PM, said:

16 posts.

Makes Battletech statement.

I blame Obama.

It's always the whiners/minority that post on forums the most.

[Kjudoon]

Now they got clan ACs to do pretty much the right thing, time to apply that to IS autocannons and quit pretending that single slug action is how it's supposed to be.

Or end convergence. That'd be good too. Anything to end complete precision control of weaponry is good for the majority of players.

Leave that to twichy FPS games, which MWO was marketed to NOT be.

Edited by Kjudoon, 12 March 2015 - 11:03 PM.

[Matthew Ace]

Honestly I think single shots are fine. (Perfect convergence of boated weapons is another matter.)

An often talked about thing is Clan LBX solid slug and ultras firing burst, being justified by its lighter weight.

I think that given the weight saving is not as significant in comparison to LRMs or the damage difference between lasers, as well as clan omnis having less pod space save for Daishis, they should have designed them with respect to other clan weapons as opposed to IS AC. Single slug 2, 5 and double-slug 10, 20 would be perfect.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 13 March 2015 - 12:10 AM.

[stjobe]

Mattiator, on 12 March 2015 - 09:53 PM, said:

There's a fair chance single-shot autocannons exist.

The ChemJet is four-round burst since Era Report 3052, which also delivers the "new" definition of AC classifications: Kilograms of ammo thrown down-range per second.

AC/2 throws 2 kg of ammo per second (45 rounds/ton = 22.2 kg/10s = 2,22 kg/s)
AC/5 throws 5 kg of ammo/second (20 rounds/ton = 5 kg/s)
AC/10 throws 10 kg (10 rounds/ton = 10 kg/s)
AC/20 throws 20 (5 rounds/ton = 20 kg/s)

So in order for an AC/20 to be single-shot, it would need to fire 200-kg shells. As a comparison, a contemporary 203mm shell weighs in at roughly 100 kg.

Which means that the 203mm Clan UAC/20 of the Cauldron-born is probably not single-shot either, unless it has an extremely heavy shell.

Here's the relevant passage:


(Era Report 3052, p.98)

Edited by stjobe, 12 March 2015 - 11:19 PM.

[Reno Blade]

It doesn't need COF. The burstfire mode would be enough.
Look at the clan UACs. Most of them are not used because nobody can hit with 5 UAC20 bullets (4 dmg each) and rather use lots of UAC5 in a faster 3-burst mode.

Russ already thinks about increasing the projectile speed of cUAC20s and 10s because of that. Not sure it won't be too easy to hit with UAC20s then, but the burst will still make it possible to spread damage like on a laser.

[Pjwned]

I would rather see the ACs that already fire multiple shots per volley be made more attractive than to screw around with making all ACs fire multiple shots.

[Lynx7725]

Eh. It'd be useful to bear in mind that the "automatic" in Automatic Cannon (autocannon) does not refer to an ability to fire magazined rounds rapidly. Instead, it refers to the automation of the weapon's action, which meant it doesn't require manual intervention to align and load rounds into the firing chamber.

Granted, automating the action is often a pre-requisite to rapid fire, but not always. French artillery in WWI was able to achieve a shocking rate of fire (for that time) with a revolutionary breech block that is manually activated, and cartridge rounds, which simplified the loading process. That's a manual cannon, but with a high rate of fire. IIRC the original Gatling gun had a manually operated breech mechanism that takes ammunition from a pannier (or vertical drop, can't remember), but technically it's not an automatic weapon.

It's perfectly legitimate to have a cannon with an automated action to fire a single round. Just as it is equally legitimate for a cannon with an automated action to rapidly cycle through a series of rounds. Both can be called autocannon.

[One Medic Army]

Mainly I wish they'd add come of fire, because it'd be a great way to "fix" poptarts, while still allowing jumpjets all of their previous brawling and maneuvering glory.

In the air? Cone that makes it impossible to snipe, but not so bad as to prevent brawling.

[NextGame]

ac20 is fine as it is.

[Paigan]

Prosperity Park, on 12 March 2015 - 09:30 PM, said:

[...]
The idea of IS AC firing single-slugs is not related to BattleTech lore in any way, because Inner Sphere Autocannons are burst-fire weapons that are subject to Cone of Fire, and this Cone of Fire determines maximum effective range.
[...]

Afaik the exact opposite is true.
In Battletech Tabletop, an AC/20 hit deals 20 damage to one single component.
That is the one and only advantage that ridiculously heavy, large, ammo-limited and still pretty hot weapon has compared to 4x Medium laser (4x5=20 damage at equal range). The lasers spread their damage across components, the AC/20 concentrates it in one.

This makes all your flaming rather pointless.



Of course from a realism point of view, you are correct.
Autocannons would behave much more like the autocannons from e.g. earthsiege or, well, real autocannons / gatling guns. Even the MWO Clan ACs are much too large-pelleted, slow-firing. ACs would shoot streams of bullets.

So why the discrepancy?

The answer:

Because the battletech rules are all in all AMAZINGLY CRAPPY.

- many mechs are unrealisticly, cheesy, childishly modelled
- SciFi Autocannons weighing tons and tons, ridiculous
- no hellfire-equivalent STS missiles that can take out mechs with 1 hit (as they WOULD. Which would also make mechs useless as a whole)
- every mech has the same amount of "space" (slots), no matter if it's 20tons or 100 tons large.
- ridiculously unbalanced weapons even inside the lousy technical fabric. I just say C-LRM: 1/1/2/4 slots instead of 1/2/3/4 ... what pothead moron did come up with those figures?. Or AC20 vs. Medium Laser. Or the ridiculous amount of system-heat that ammo-weapons create. But energy consumption is no factor at all?

My conclusion when I was about teenage age was:
The Battletech rules were designed my some incompetent pothead ad&d-like RPG-Junkies with no plan of technology or balance whatsoever. That's why I abandonded it. Earthsiege/cyberstorm is much better in almost every regard, it's sadly just not as known.

PGI did a pretty good job at holding close to the original (too close for my taste) to attract the Batteltech purists but at the same time balance the weapons by additional values (by cooldown, laser duration, screenshake, etc.).
That's why I'm here .


So my suggestion is: don't cling to the weak-minded original rules (and if you do, get it right which you obviously did not in this post) but rather aim for an overall balanced product that is only only based on / inspired by the childish Battletech.

Edited by Paigan, 13 March 2015 - 12:47 AM.

[Roadbuster]

100 shot burst for AC20...
How long would it take to shoot 1 burst?
And the only difference to LBX would be the 1-shot spread vs the burst spread and the time it takes to fire a burst.

I say, no thx.


What would change?
UAC/AC5 boats would not change. Bulletvomit ftw.
Cockpit shake would probably be worse?
People unable to properly hit with C-UAC/AC will still be unable to properly hit with them.
IS AC users would have to stay exposed for a bit longer.
AC2 and AC10 would still be rare, AC5 would stay spam and AC20 would still hit hard at short range.

Less pinpoint damage would mean, people use more Gauss instead of ACs, putting ACs in the same spot as LRMs -> people don't use them because they are inferior to other weapons.

Instead of messing around with weapons and nerfing them into oblivion, work on convergence for all weapons.
That's my opinion.


EDIT:
Funny fact: 100 MG rounds deal 8 damage, so 3 MGs would deal more damage than an AC20 if both would fire 10 rounds per second.
So to be effective, the AC would have to fire multiple rounds at once, or one burst would take 10 seconds to fire.
According to Sarna ACs vary depending on manufacturer. So, why should it be impossible to have a manufacturer which fires all 100 rounds in 1 single burst? That would be pretty much what we have now.

Edited by Roadbuster, 13 March 2015 - 02:22 AM.