58 replies to this topic

[ROSS-128]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 March 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

I find it fascinating how some people dont understand that burn time and heat per damage are the 2 most important stats for lasers. The IS LPL is the best laser in the game imo (and i have about 4x as many games in IS mechs as clan)

They're not really. If those two stats trumped all, the Small Pulse Laser would be king of all lasers (2 heat 4 damage, 0.5s burn time before quirks) and the Clan Small Pulse laser would basically be its big brother (3 heat 6 damage, meaning same efficiency but more damage/ton and damage/slot, 0.75s burn time, ~50% more range).

The SPL isn't king of lasers, because it only has 110m of range and only puts 4 damage into 1 hardpoint, 1 crit slot. Plus the medium laser and small laser are both more weight efficient.

Thing is range, damage/ton, and damage/slot matter too. Lighter mechs value damage/ton above damage/slot, heavier ones put higher value on damage/slot but a ton saved is a ton you can use somewhere else still.

The LPL is a good laser, not going to lie, partly because at 365m its range is... decent. Not great, but usable on a lot of maps. Most viable LPL builds rely heavily on range quirks+modules though, because right around 500m is a real sweet spot for range (and more range never hurts for lasers). And partly because it has the same size (weight+slots) as a PPC, but 1 extra damage, no min range, and hitscan (at the cost of not being front-loaded, of course).

The extra range on Clan lasers is quite a large bonus for the whole "do damage without getting damaged in return" thing. It allows them to sit well outside the effective range of many IS weapons (and even max range, for IS medium lasers) and make very good trades. This gives them more power to pick and choose their terrain, because they can comfortably reach out and do damage while IS mechs are looking for a way to get close.

It's also why the 30% range quirk makes the 2-LPL Raven 4X a hilariously entertaining build.

[KraftySOT]

And no one ever putting forth these whines...even gives lip service to the fact that there are modules, and quirks.

All IS LL arent even created equally. Theyre actually really bad on mechs that arent quirked for them. No one takes ONE large laser on anything, its basically useless.

The OP said: "Every time i go in to a match for CW all i see on IS mech is Large lasers on every single mech"

You surely dont. And the large laser hitting you fired from the Stalker 4N, isnt the same as the one hitting you fired from another Stalker 4N because one may have modules, and the other doesnt, one may have doubled cool run and heat contain. Then you have an ERLL hitting you fired from a Raven 3L, or a LL being fired from an Awesome, or some noob put one on a Wolverine.

Is it a good weapon system for CW? Of course. The maps are pretty open. Gauss, LL, small ACs, of course youll see these things. Why wouldnt you. Would you prefer the IS use mostly SRMs and stand around at 600m for you to shoot them?

You know how not to see alot of IS LL shooting up yer purty clan mechs? Stop playing peekaboo at extreme range. No one is brawling with LL if they can help it.

Edited by KraftySOT, 14 March 2015 - 06:17 PM.

[Nayru]

KraftySOT, on 14 March 2015 - 05:35 PM, said:

You.

Are.

Bad.

So moody. I don't recall 'whining' about any form of large laser, I was just stating a fact: CERLL is bad, both stat-wise and meta-wise.

People still use it. I still use it once in a blue moon. Doesn't mean its obvious game-breaking overpoweredness justifies IS LL boating, as people were so inclined to point out.

If anything's bad it's your reading comprehension.

[Burktross]

KraftySOT, on 14 March 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

And no one ever putting forth these whines...even gives lip service to the fact that there are modules, and quirks.

All IS LL arent even created equally. Theyre actually really bad on mechs that arent quirked for them. No one takes ONE large laser on anything, its basically useless.

The OP said: "Every time i go in to a match for CW all i see on IS mech is Large lasers on every single mech"

You surely dont. And the large laser hitting you fired from the Stalker 4N, isnt the same as the one hitting you fired from another Stalker 4N because one may have modules, and the other doesnt, one may have doubled cool run and heat contain. Then you have an ERLL hitting you fired from a Raven 3L, or a LL being fired from an Awesome, or some noob put one on a Wolverine.

Is it a good weapon system for CW? Of course. The maps are pretty open. Gauss, LL, small ACs, of course youll see these things. Why wouldnt you. Would you prefer the IS use mostly SRMs and stand around at 600m for you to shoot them?

You know how not to see alot of IS LL shooting up yer purty clan mechs? Stop playing peekaboo at extreme range. No one is brawling with LL if they can help it.

I'll have you know I put one large laser on my Ravens and my Enforcer because I am a Special Snowflake

[KraftySOT]

Nayru, on 14 March 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

So moody. I don't recall 'whining' about any form of large laser, I was just stating a fact: CERLL is bad, both stat-wise and meta-wise.

People still use it. I still use it once in a blue moon. Doesn't mean its obvious game-breaking overpoweredness justifies IS LL boating, as people were so inclined to point out.

If anything's bad it's your reading comprehension.

I can see why the Lords are falling over themselves to recruit you.

I dont think you know what game breaking over poweredness is. Let me know when youve played 5,000 or so MWO matches. We'll talk again about balance.

Burktross, on 14 March 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

I'll have you know I put one large laser on my Ravens and my Enforcer because I am a Special Snowflake

Thank god someone used that term. I was about too.

Sadly he's too new to get the reference.

[Wintersdark]

KraftySOT, on 14 March 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

Map design, is far more affecting of the 'large laser' ******** midget pillow fight debate, than either burn time, or heat for damage.

You only see people hate on a few builds with a few specific quirks, at a specific type of situation, in a specific game mode.

All this, so much.

Map design makes all weapon balance discussions very hard, even amongst people who know wtf they are talking about. Its pretty much impossible discuss most weapon balance without discussing it in the context of a particular map.

Range, heat, burn time, all have entirely different impacts of different maps, depending on cover amount (lots of cover, particularly little bits, heavily devalues long-burn weapons), hot maps favour low heat weaponry, availability of good firing lanes increases the value of range.

Range in particular is very fiddly. So long as you have enough range for the engagement distances you realistically have on a map and your role, any extra range has zero value... But as longer range weapons tendbto have other disadvantages (burn time, heat, etc) you're paying for that useless range anyways.

Then quirks... Quirks make weapon vs. Weapon comparisons, even on the same map, practically worthless. As virtually every IS mech has at least generic quirks impacting different classes of weapons differently.

Its a real downside of the quirk system. Given the above, I can pretty much garauntee you're not going to see major IS weapon balance changes anymore. It'd be a minefield, as you don't just change, say, a Large Laser. You change something to the tune of 70 effectively different weapons simultaneously.

I really hoped they'd spend more time on clan issues before just dumping in quirks, because once quirks are in, they're the only thing that'll change.

[Nayru]

KraftySOT, on 14 March 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

I can see why the Lords are falling over themselves to recruit you.

I dont think you know what game breaking over poweredness is. Let me know when youve played 5,000 or so MWO matches. We'll talk again about balance.

Ah, if only mindlessly grinding away at something for ages on end really did equal skill.

Unfortunately for you, everyone with half a brain in any competitive scene knows it does not.

If my term is 'special snowflake', then yours gets to be 'bad because bad', unless your huge experience somehow prevents enemies from realizing you exist, popping you with instant damage and/or twisting during your 1.5s damage duration.

Somehow, I doubt that.

[Widowmaker1981]

E Rommel, on 14 March 2015 - 06:09 PM, said:

They're not really. If those two stats trumped all, the Small Pulse Laser would be king of all lasers (2 heat 4 damage, 0.5s burn time before quirks) and the Clan Small Pulse laser would basically be its big brother (3 heat 6 damage, meaning same efficiency but more damage/ton and damage/slot, 0.75s burn time, ~50% more range).

The SPL isn't king of lasers, because it only has 110m of range and only puts 4 damage into 1 hardpoint, 1 crit slot. Plus the medium laser and small laser are both more weight efficient.

Thing is range, damage/ton, and damage/slot matter too. Lighter mechs value damage/ton above damage/slot, heavier ones put higher value on damage/slot but a ton saved is a ton you can use somewhere else still.

The LPL is a good laser, not going to lie, partly because at 365m its range is... decent. Not great, but usable on a lot of maps. Most viable LPL builds rely heavily on range quirks+modules though, because right around 500m is a real sweet spot for range (and more range never hurts for lasers). And partly because it has the same size (weight+slots) as a PPC, but 1 extra damage, no min range, and hitscan (at the cost of not being front-loaded, of course).

The extra range on Clan lasers is quite a large bonus for the whole "do damage without getting damaged in return" thing. It allows them to sit well outside the effective range of many IS weapons (and even max range, for IS medium lasers) and make very good trades. This gives them more power to pick and choose their terrain, because they can comfortably reach out and do damage while IS mechs are looking for a way to get close.

It's also why the 30% range quirk makes the 2-LPL Raven 4X a hilariously entertaining build.

ok, what i should have said is 'once you have 400 or so meters of optimal range, range is a fairly negligibly useful stat' - it has applications, but its really not hard to use terrain so you never have to fight at much more than 500m. IS LPL is 402m with just the module, so reaches that (more with quirks, obviously), and given its incredible dmg/heat and burn time, at least for me its the most effective energy weapon, with C-ERML in 2nd (due to the dmg/ton) and C-LPL in 3rd, barring superquirked IS mech (MPLs on TDR-5SS, LLs on a few mechs)

Ive been playing clan mechs today for the challenge (most IS hero mechs are junk), and omg. They are soooo hot, and the lasers burn for SO LONG. The 2xLPL + 4ERML TBR makes my 5 LPL banshee feel like driving a fridge.

[KraftySOT]

I would say experience is critical to understanding balance issues.

It has nothing to do with skill really, other than more time = more chances to improve, but the point was, you cant just come n here and say "OMG THE IS LL IS OP!"

Really nothing is OP, Balance is in a great place compared to how its been for ages. Its built on the back of some ridiculous bandaid systems, but you must have seen the first, second, third, or fourth lurmpocalypses, splatpocalypse, ACoverlords, Poptarts, Guassmeta, etc etc.

This is not Laser Armegeddon. You dont know what over powered even means in the context of this game.

[Nayru]

...but the only time I said the CERLL was overpowered, I was being heavily sarcastic.

I've stated multiple times that both ERLL's are rather herp, with the IS one being less herp due to quirks + an entire quarter of a second less burn, I prefer LPL, but regardless.

I didn't originally post in this thread to say any laser was overpowered, or underpowered, or whatever the ****, just that people can't say CERLL is amazing compared to IS LL because, as far as stats are and quirks are concerned, they might as well be completely different, incomparable weapons that just happen to both be 'hitscan' DoTs.

People just compare CERLL to LL because there are no non-ER clan lasers, and they probably shouldn't. Besides, none of anything that is happening right now has **** on 1.8 torso-streaking ALRMs, or 'can only hit CT' laser streaks, or Angel ECM (for real, when teammate in bubble = gone from radar).

Quirks are a proper bad system though, they should've just gone the asymmetrical multiplayer route.

[InspectorG]

Wait!

I thought we were BOO HOO over the THUD 9S ERPPC spam???

Did i miss something?

[EvilCow]

I vote to give clammers the ISLL and to IS the CERML.

Edited by EvilCow, 14 March 2015 - 11:46 PM.

[jlawsl]

Well, the only large mech that has specifically really op large lasers is the pretty baby. Its beam duration is reduced to that of a LPL(+30% las dur) , it has a (+module)42% recharge on the energy weapon of choice, -25% heat +25% range. But it only gets two. At first I thought they seriously nerfed the Pretty Baby, until I started looking at the durations. The IS LPL on it are great too, because the laser duration and recharge are both general energy 30% base quirks.

[Rossario x Vampire]

2 OP...

[MechWarrior5152251]

Large Lasers? WTF?

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

3LLs:
-15 tons
-6 crits
-27 damage
-1sec beam duration
-21heat
-450m range, no module, no quirks


3ERMLs:
-3 tons
-3 crits
-21 damage
-1.1sec beam duration
-18 heat
-405m range, no module, no quirks

Looks pretty fair to me. Even with quirks it still is a 15 ton investment.

[Ken Harkin]

Wow, just wow. First of all the post is practically unintelligible. Given it is from inside the USA I'm not giving the normal pass for English as a second language.

Second, the complaint is absolutely baseless.

[Shatara]

InspectorG, on 14 March 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

Wait!

I thought we were BOO HOO over the THUD 9S ERPPC spam???

Did i miss something?

They nerfed the 9S. About the same time, they made it so you could fire 3 IS Large Lasers (including ER and Pulse) at a time with no ghost heat. One guess what all the metapros immediately did.

[Richard Warts]

Shatara, on 15 March 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

They nerfed the 9S. About the same time, they made it so you could fire 3 IS Large Lasers (including ER and Pulse) at a time with no ghost heat. One guess what all the metapros immediately did.

Kill you all the same with whatever they bring?

Edited by Tabu 73, 15 March 2015 - 02:25 PM.