48 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Lately I've been having a blast piloting my 6x ML Locust-1E, and a big part of that is lasers with -25% heat (so medium lasers go from 4 heat to 3) which means being able to sustain a decent amount of fire without overheating, though not so much that overheating is never a problem because that still happens.

Medium and small Inner Sphere lasers should be at 3 and 1 heat respectively instead of 4 and 2 heat respectively, this is a long overdue change that would help a number of mechs and also distinguish IS mechs as being more effective at short range engagements compared to Clan mechs which have more range but run hotter.

As a little side note, I was originally leveling Locusts for the 1V and its ERLL sniping, but I've been less than impressed with it so far (mostly due to awful damage) while the 1E with its generous energy quirks is really fun to zip around and poke things (from a nice distance thanks to the range quirks) with green lasers, kind of like the JR7-F except better in most regards. In short, I came for the 1V, stayed for the 1E.

EDIT: Here's some clarification I posted further down.

Pjwned, on 14 March 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

KraftySOT, on 14 March 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

Pjwned, on 14 March 2015 - 06:26 PM, said:

Well, if the base heat for medium & small lasers was lowered I would not argue with removing energy heat quirks from a number of mechs, including Locusts.

But back to the OP.... I mean...25% less heat from a quirk, is...the same as lowering the heat from 4 to 3 right? I mean, 25% of 4 is 1. So...your locust...

Nevermind.

Why do you do this to yourself Krafty.

Because it's not just about the Locust, I'm saying other mechs should have medium lasers with the same heat. I guess that wasn't entirely clear since I didn't explicitly mention "oh yeah and the Locust can have its heat quirks removed too" but that is what I was leading up to.

Edited by Pjwned, 14 March 2015 - 06:59 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lol, you want them to be 5/3s like TT? lol

[Burktross]

It's fine as it is. I'd like beam duration to be lowered all around, however.

[Brody319]

IS SPLs, MPLs, MLs, and SLs do not have ghost heat. but the clan counterparts do!

When are we going to get our ghost heatless lasers?!

[Pjwned]

LordKnightFandragon, on 14 March 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

Lol, you want them to be 5/3s like TT? lol

Considering how short range they are without any modifiers? Yes.

[Coolant]

I couldn't believe my eyes reading the original post. Reduce small and medium laser heat? Really? You running a 6 ML Locust is why they should not be touched. You shouldn't even be able to run that on a 20 ton mech. You should fire and shut down.

Cheesy mech loadout. I would embarrassed to bring that to the battlefield

[Pjwned]

Coolant, on 14 March 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

I couldn't believe my eyes reading the original post. Reduce small and medium laser heat? Really? You running a 6 ML Locust is why they should not be touched. You shouldn't even be able to run that on a 20 ton mech. You should fire and shut down.

Cheesy mech loadout. I would embarrassed to bring that to the battlefield

My bad, I forgot that 20 ton mechs should be the lowest of garbage mechs not fit for anybody except the most hardcore masochists.

[KraftySOT]

Coolant, on 14 March 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

I couldn't believe my eyes reading the original post. Reduce small and medium laser heat? Really? You running a 6 ML Locust is why they should not be touched. You shouldn't even be able to run that on a 20 ton mech. You should fire and shut down.

Cheesy mech loadout. I would embarrassed to bring that to the battlefield

Bad.

[El Bandito]

Brody319, on 14 March 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

IS SPLs, MPLs, MLs, and SLs do not have ghost heat. but the clan counterparts do!

When are we going to get our ghost heatless lasers?!

IS ML has Ghost Heat. IS SL and SPL do not have Ghost Heat because they are bad on every mech except the heavily quirked ones. (110 meter range lolololol) When IS SL and SPL become something more than crap, then they can get GH.

IS MPL does not have GH but it is also a "meh" weapon compared to IS ML due to worse range and extra tonnage. No one boats more than six IS MPLs in the first place, so there is no need for GH.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 March 2015 - 05:52 PM.

[KraftySOT]

El Bandito, on 14 March 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

IS MPL does not have GH but it is also a "meh" weapon compared to IS ML due to worse range and extra tonnage. No one boats IS MPL with any frequency in the first place, so there is no need for GH.

Not that im trying to get GH added to anything, but apparently youve never seen Wubcadas, Thunderwubs, Wubshees, Battlewubs, etc.

Boated MPLs are most definitely a Thing™

They were on Wubstarters and such too, but quirks made SPLs better options in many cases because of range. But boated MPLs have always been a thing. People who are concerned about hitreg, face time, and can do mech surgery, generally prefer pulse lasers of all shapes and sizes over the lasers which can be splashed with torso twisting.

Good players wont ever let any laser hit hte same location for long, so pulse is the only way to make close range peekaboo work. With two players with 150ms ping, and -10% laser duration, an enemy has only 260 or so milliseconds to react to being hit if they dont see you shoot.

Consider Olympic class runners have a reaction time of around 166ms, that gives you only 100ms to react to being hit by Wub.

Thats the advantage.

Fortunately theyve been throwing more stats at Wub so theyre ever better, but most people are so brain dead that they only look at the stats, which still appear to give the edge to straight lasers.

Edited by KraftySOT, 14 March 2015 - 05:57 PM.

[El Bandito]

KraftySOT, on 14 March 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

Not that im trying to get GH added to anything, but apparently youve never seen Wubcadas, Thunderwubs, Wubshees, Battlewubs, etc.

Boated MPLs are most definitely a Thing™

They were on Wubstarters and such too, but quirks made SPLs better options in many cases because of range. But boated MPLs have always been a thing. People who are concerned about hitreg, face time, and can do mech surgery, generally prefer pulse lasers of all shapes and sizes over the lasers which can be splashed with torso twisting.

Good players wont ever let any laser hit hte same location for long, so pulse is the only way to make close range peekaboo work. With two players with 150ms ping, and -10% laser duration, an enemy has only 260 or so milliseconds to react to being hit if they dont see you shoot.

You still do not understand. None of the mechs you listed boats more than 6 MPLs, they prefer a mix of LPLs and MPLs. Since "six" is the magic number for GH limits on medium class lasers, there is no need for MPL GH in the first place.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 March 2015 - 05:58 PM.

[Brody319]

El Bandito, on 14 March 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

You still do not understand. None of the mechs you listed boats more than 6 MPLs, they prefer a mix of LPLs and MPLs. Since "six" is the magic number for GH limits on medium class lasers, there is no need for MPL GH in the first place.

And most clan mechs would never boat more than 6 MPLs so why even have the ghost heat?
I don't remember the last time I saw a Clan SPL (outside of my gargles) or a SL. So if they aren't used any more than regular IS SPLs and SLs why are they getting ghost heat and not the IS?

[KraftySOT]

El Bandito, on 14 March 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

You still do not understand. None of the mechs you listed boats more than 6 MPLs, they prefer a mix of LPLs and MPLs. Since "six" is the magic number for GH limits on medium class lasers, there is no need for MPL GH in the first place.

Yeah they do. Sadly you see Battlewubs and Wubshees with full compliments of MPLs, just like you see Wubshees with 6 LPL. Theyre both wrong, but that doesnt mean you dont see them.

Brodys point was that MPLs should probably have GH, when they effectively dont (and when you have -25% heat generation on something that it takes 6 to have GH, even when you have 8 MPLs, you still have no ghost heat) like, 4 MPLs.

You said they were 'meh' weapons.

They absolutely arent 'meh' weapons. Boating MPLs as a main or secondary, is quite prolific and effective.

[El Bandito]

Brody319, on 14 March 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

And most clan mechs would never boat more than 6 MPLs so why even have the ghost heat?
I don't remember the last time I saw a Clan SPL (outside of my gargles) or a SL. So if they aren't used any more than regular IS SPLs and SLs why are they getting ghost heat and not the IS?

I personally would boat 7 MPLs on my Timbie if there was no GH, and Timbie is a mighty popular mech. Also, my Lurm Timbie has 6 ERSLs (five damage each and 200 range) for back up weapon, and it packs a punch. And then there is the 12 SPL Nova, nasty enough even with GH.

KraftySOT, on 14 March 2015 - 06:03 PM, said:

Yeah they do. Sadly you see Battlewubs and Wubshees with full compliments of MPLs, just like you see Wubshees with 6 LPL. Theyre both wrong, but that doesnt mean you dont see them.

Brodys point was that MPLs should probably have GH, when they effectively dont (and when you have -25% heat generation on something that it takes 6 to have GH, even when you have 8 MPLs, you still have no ghost heat) like, 4 MPLs.

You said they were 'meh' weapons.

They absolutely arent 'meh' weapons. Boating MPLs as a main or secondary, is quite prolific and effective.

IS MLs has closer range and cooldown with the LPLs so they pair together much better. Something I learned while piloting laser vomit mechs. I would spend the extra tonnage on something else.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 March 2015 - 06:10 PM.

[KraftySOT]

And not every weapon needs to be used.

If you make a small pulse laser as good as a medium pulse laser, then its just a medium pulse laser. See the Wubstarter. There were plenty of people boating MPLs. With quirks that buff the SPLs, they just replace the MPLs.

If you do that to ALL the SPLs, then they replace ALL the MPLs.

If you want to see more clan SPLs, you need mechs with SPL quirks.

El Bandito, on 14 March 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

I would boat 7 MPLs on my Timbie if there was no GH, and Timbie is a mighty popular mech. Also, my Lurm Timbie has 6 ERSLs (five damage each!) for back up weapon, and it packs a punch. And then there is the 12 SPL Nova, just nasty.

That Nova is horrible, and youre bad for suggesting it isnt. It might pack a punch in the solo queue, at 4am EST, against some guy in the underhive steering wheel alliance.

That Timby however would be ridiculously better than it is, which is why theres GH on tehm clan pulses, despite all the underhivers saying theyre bad.

[Brody319]

El Bandito, on 14 March 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

I personally would boat 7 MPLs on my Timbie if there was no GH, and Timbie is a mighty popular mech. Also, my Lurm Timbie has 6 ERSLs (five damage each) for back up weapon, and it packs a punch. And then there is the 12 SPL Nova, nasty enough even with GH.




IS MLs has closer range and cooldown with the LPLs so they pair together well. Something I learned while piloting laser vomit mechs. I would spend the extra tonnage on something else.

I run 7 MPLs now on my Timberwolf! It fine and effective, It wouldn't be that much better without ghost heat. you are only going 1 above the limit! Its one of my best builds on my timberwolves. The ghost heat does nothing, I can like alpha 2-3 times without overheating, and thats on a heat neutral map. its not that hot. really it only benefits mechs that could bring more than 7-8 MPLs, and any mech that can bring that much has various other problems

the Nova is hot no matter what builds really, has limited tonnage, is a giant target and low slung arms, so it wouldn't do anything but help the nova at least be more viable vs the Stormcrow. Especially with the Shadcat on the way

[Burktross]

Pjwned, on 14 March 2015 - 04:27 PM, said:

My bad, I forgot that 20 ton mechs should be the lowest of garbage mechs not fit for anybody except the most hardcore masochists.

Me being a locust lover myself, let's not make a locust into a 35 ton jenner or a 40 ton cicada.
Speed or firepower, you can't have both in copious amounts.

[El Bandito]

Brody319, on 14 March 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

I run 7 MPLs now on my Timberwolf! It fine and effective, It wouldn't be that much better without ghost heat. you are only going 1 above the limit! Its one of my best builds on my timberwolves. The ghost heat does nothing, I can like alpha 2-3 times without overheating, and thats on a heat neutral map. its not that hot. really it only benefits mechs that could bring more than 7-8 MPLs, and any mech that can bring that much has various other problems

If 7 CMPL Timbie is already effective, and any mech that can bring over 8 CMPLs have other things to worry about, then there is no reason to remove the GH in the first place.

GH is a stupid mechanic and should be gone, but you just shot down your own argument.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 March 2015 - 06:59 PM.

[KraftySOT]

El Bandito, on 14 March 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

I personally would boat 7 MPLs on my Timbie if there was no GH, and Timbie is a mighty popular mech. Also, my Lurm Timbie has 6 ERSLs (five damage each and 200 range) for back up weapon, and it packs a punch. And then there is the 12 SPL Nova, nasty enough even with GH.




IS MLs has closer range and cooldown with the LPLs so they pair together much better. Something I learned while piloting laser vomit mechs. I would spend the extra tonnage on something else.

Theres nothing else to spend it on. Killing red gundams is how you play the game. The most killingest you can be, is the same as being the most winningest.

Hence Hexastalkers back in the day.

Theres no reason any high level player would take MLs over MPLs when paired with LPLs. The burn time is what youre leveraging. You should be back behind cover by the time the MLs are finished, making their extra damage projection over MPLs pointless, since 60% of them didnt hit, or hit something useless, and not what youre trying to instantly knock out.

Say for instance a 63 point alpha, becomes a 58 point alpha with MLs on a Wubshee, you have better damage projection making your 300m shot with MLs a ~50 point alpha, while the MPLs gave you ~47 point alpha.

However since you wasted half the damage of 5 MLs hitting another location or the environmental hitbox when you return to cover, youre really only doing a ~38.5 damage alpha. Almost 10 full points LESS than the MPLs.

With 47 damage, you can instantly destroy the arm or leg of anything in the lower medium category, and even some heavies. With 38.5, you cant.

This is the difference between a Centurion who has 2 MLs or 2 SRM4s to shoot at you (ignorable) vs an AC20 or Gauss plus that. Or any other way you want to look at it.

El Bandito, on 14 March 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

If 7 CMPL Timbie is already effective, and any mech that can bring over 8 CMPLs have other things to worry about, then there is not reason to remove the GH in the first place.

GH is a stupid mechanic and should be gone, but you just shot down your own argument.

On that I agree.

[Pjwned]

Burktross, on 14 March 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

Me being a locust lover myself, let's not make a locust into a 35 ton jenner or a 40 ton cicada.
Speed or firepower, you can't have both in copious amounts.

Well, if the base heat for medium & small lasers was lowered I would not argue with removing energy heat quirks from a number of mechs, including Locusts.

Edited by Pjwned, 14 March 2015 - 06:28 PM.