90 replies to this topic

[L3mming2]

In a post from PGI a wile back they stated that the clans in CW had a win % of 64%,
they stated this was due to the avrage elo disparity between the IS and clans was around 100 in favor of the clans. the resulting win rate was in line whit the elo difference.

if u look at the CW map you can see the clan onslaut is still running full steam.

so my question, why are all the competitive players / try hards still on the clan side?

IMHO this explains a load;

http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/




edit; (added pgi post)

Russ Bullock, on 06 November 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

I ran a quick Clan vs IS test to gather some data without the risk of changing player behavior ( solo queue only )

Small sample size with Clan victories at 64%

I am relatively happy with this seeing as the test increased the usual 50 ELO difference between teams to ~90 and growing the longer I ran the test - most matches I observed were around 100-120 ELO advantage to the Clan team.

Again with this in mind I think 64% is something I am fairly pleased with.

The new quirks still need more time to settle in and for people to use them in the best way. I may very well do some more quick Clan vs IS tests to gather more data sets.

edit 2;

a posible solution for elo in balance

they need to make changes so the avrage elo of clan and is gets balanced.

options;
- get high elo clan players to come to IS (comp. players and try hards)
these players in general want to win and will use/abuse any atvantage to do so.
to get them to switch sides u will have to offer them a edge (bassicly give the IS some mechs that are the new meta..)
- get noobs/ low elo IS players to come to the clan side
these players dont have the recorces to chase the meta, if they even know what it is.. they are usualy low on c-bils and as a result are more intrested in making c-bills/ saving c-bills (buying cheaper mechs)
if u make clan mechs cheap they will start buying clan stuff on mass

IMO, option 1 is a never ending story, as it probably only will relocate the problem
option 2 however, (making the high elo side's mechs cheap so noobs will buy them) wont screw around with the competitive sene (the meta wont be affected) so it will pis of less ppl. and it might solve the problem..

Edited by L3mming2, 16 March 2015 - 08:49 AM.

[UberStuka]

ELO isn't the only thing to consider.. the onslaught from clans is due to:

1) IS house in fighting. Of course the clans will grab planets while the IS houses are to busy fighting themselves.

2) 4 clan houses vs 3 IS houses (attack lanes)

3) IS pugs choosing bad drop deck / builds (lrms. light zerg etc etc)

Just saying there is plenty to factor in when looking at the map.

[L3mming2]

UberStuka, on 15 March 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:

ELO isn't the only thing to consider.. the onslaught from clans is due to:

1) IS house in fighting. Of course the clans will grab planets while the IS houses are to busy fighting themselves.

2) 4 clan houses vs 3 IS houses (attack lanes)

3) IS pugs choosing bad drop deck / builds (lrms. light zerg etc etc)

Just saying there is plenty to factor in when looking at the map.

yes but apart from all that the question remains why is the amount of try hards and comp. players so mutch higher on the clan side (represented by the masive elo difference)

ps;
1) dont the clans fight eatch other? if u look at the CW map you'll see contested planets between them...
2) i am currently davion faction, despite having no border with the clans i get in to batles against them (very often and alongside other IS factions) so infact its 4 clan houses vs 5 is houses
3) yes ==> low elo, the players who know what they are doing have a higher elo and are on the clan side...

Edited by L3mming2, 15 March 2015 - 11:13 AM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Clan tech is pretty expensive, which lends itself to the "hardcore" base. Granted fully upgrading IS mechs are about as expensive but they have a lower cbill threshold for some of their stables like the Tbolt and stalker.

[CRIMSONSUNNY]

And Arctic Cheeter... will dominate the light category. GGclose Clanners.

[Aresye]

L3mming2, on 15 March 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

yes but apart from all that the question remains why is the amount of try hards and comp. players so mutch higher on the clan side (represented by the masive elo difference)

ps;
1) dont the clans fight eatch other? if u look at the CW map you'll see contested planets between them...
2) i am currently davion faction, despite having no border with the clans i get in to batles against them (very often and alongside other IS factions) so infact its 4 clan houses vs 5 is houses
3) yes ==> low elo, the players who know what they are doing have a higher elo and are on the clan side...

We've had some skirmishes every now and then between Clans, but currently we have zero infighting, and most of the time the infighting is usually mercenaries and not the loyalist units.

Watch my Twitch. The problem isn't that we have high Elo. In fact, I'm pretty sure most of us loyalists have average to below average Elos. The problem is all of your best teams are focused on fighting other IS houses, leaving mostly solo players and scattered teams to defend against the Clan loyalist units.

[Thorqemada]

There is no Elo in CW - PGIs own statement.

[L3mming2]

Aresye, on 15 March 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

We've had some skirmishes every now and then between Clans, but currently we have zero infighting, and most of the time the infighting is usually mercenaries and not the loyalist units.

Watch my Twitch. The problem isn't that we have high Elo. In fact, I'm pretty sure most of us loyalists have average to below average Elos. The problem is all of your best teams are focused on fighting other IS houses, leaving mostly solo players and scattered teams to defend against the Clan loyalist units.

its not that recent but i think its the most recent statment of pgi in this matter;

Russ Bullock, on 06 November 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

I ran a quick Clan vs IS test to gather some data without the risk of changing player behavior ( solo queue only )

Small sample size with Clan victories at 64%

I am relatively happy with this seeing as the test increased the usual 50 ELO difference between teams to ~90 and growing the longer I ran the test - most matches I observed were around 100-120 ELO advantage to the Clan team.

Again with this in mind I think 64% is something I am fairly pleased with.

The new quirks still need more time to settle in and for people to use them in the best way. I may very well do some more quick Clan vs IS tests to gather more data sets.

http://en.wikipedia....o_rating_system

so unles all those high elo players got tired of winning 64% of there maches, and said mmm i want to go to the side that gets there ass kicked, there still there..

and unless you put real monney on the table (to be honest i did that just today out of sheer frustration) you need about 150 mil C-bills to make a masterd, moduled competitive clan CW drop deck.

to put that in to perspective, if u make 500000 c-bils /h
you will need 300h of game play to get your drop deck...
if you play 10h a week thats still 7,5 months of grinding

so in practice only the veteran players who have a gaint pile of sur plus c-bils, ore the players who are prepared to buy there way in (ussualy if u spend that kind of cash on a game you are a more dedicated player than mr casual joo)

on top of that the concensus of most comp players is that the clan (timberw. and stormc.) have the edge.
see; http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/

the point is not even if thats true, it is a self forfiling profecy, it will make try hards/comp. players chose the clans..

end result; the clans end up with more high elo players, and they stomp the low elo IS players

Thorqemada, on 15 March 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

There is no Elo in CW - PGIs own statement.

Russ Bullock, on 06 November 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

I ran a quick Clan vs IS test to gather some data without the risk of changing player behavior ( solo queue only )

Small sample size with Clan victories at 64%

I am relatively happy with this seeing as the test increased the usual 50 ELO difference between teams to ~90 and growing the longer I ran the test - most matches I observed were around 100-120 ELO advantage to the Clan team.

Again with this in mind I think 64% is something I am fairly pleased with.

The new quirks still need more time to settle in and for people to use them in the best way. I may very well do some more quick Clan vs IS tests to gather more data sets.

you mean there is no ELO in CW machmaker, i think thats evidently clear ==> 64% clan wins

Edited by L3mming2, 15 March 2015 - 01:09 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

64% win ratio is huge, no matter how much Russ tries to downplay it.

Clans are, forever have been, and likely will forever remain OP in this game.

There's also no elo in CW, so you can't use that as an excuse. People who want to win, or just grind c-bills faster, will field clan robots.

Clan players don't generally fight other clan players because why would you do that when you can stomp weak IS mechs?

Edited by Vassago Rain, 15 March 2015 - 01:36 PM.

[ROSS-128]

Thing is, Elo is not a direct indicator of skill. Elo is calculated based off your win/loss record. So a group's win/loss record falling in line with their Elo is not surprising, and would still happen even in a wildly imbalanced environment. The only thing that would cause it to go out of whack is a sudden large population shift (ie a bunch of Clanners go IS, a bunch of IS go Clan, taking their W/L records with them).

And that would be a temporary thing. Either the IS people who switched to Clans would start winning and their Elo would go up, or they would start losing and the Clan W/L would get brought down until it matched their Elo.

So you take their W/L record, you use that to calculate their Elo. You then take their Elo, and use that to predict their W/L record. The circle is complete.

So what came first, the chicken or the egg?

Considering Clans started out OP and we've been struggling to balance them ever since, Clan gear still being strong is the most likely explanation. Strong mechs cause them to win more, which inflates their Elo, which then is unsurprisingly in line with their W/L record because that's what you use to calculate it in the first place.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

L3mming2, on 15 March 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

if u look at the CW map you can see the clan onslaut is still running full steam.

so my question, why are all the competitive players / try hards still on the clan side?

Are they, though? Every faction has loyalist units but the teams that shape the IS map switch off between Clan and IS pretty regularly. The only difference I notice in this regard is that when those teams are away the clans continue to fight IS and not each other, and every attempt by the IS to band together has been short lived.

Focus on a planet is important. The best comp teams may not be able to hold a planet against a numerically superior force of mediocre players once they start to be outnumbered by 2:1 or 3:1. Most of the time the clans have to worry about 1 - 2 fronts. On the other hand, Kurita currently has the potential for activity on 7 fronts.

Not that this disproves anything, I just don't think it is a good point to work from on this subject.

As for the idea that clan player Elo was higher at the time of that test. It is entirely possible that it was true, just not in the way some would present it. Some would say that clan players are better. I prefer to say the better players (of which, I certainly do not qualify) were in their clan mechs at the time.

Anyways, the 64% was a good sign. It showed a narrowing of the gap after the quirkening (was 90% during the test before). There just hasn't been much follow up since then.

[Gyrok]

L3mming2, on 15 March 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

In a post from PGI a wile back they stated that the clans in CW had a win % of 64%,
they stated this was due to the avrage elo disparity between the IS and clans was around 100 in favor of the clans. the resulting win rate was in line whit the elo difference.

if u look at the CW map you can see the clan onslaut is still running full steam.

so my question, why are all the competitive players / try hards still on the clan side?

IMHO this explains a load;

http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/




edit; (added pgi post)

Gman's tier list...while the opinion of a competitive player...is not a be all, end all opinion on the matter.

In fact, his analysis overlooks some things that I think are crucially important...such as, the fact that IS mechs, especially the super quirked ones, like the STK-4N, the TDR-5SS and 9S, and a few others, actually put out superior sustained DPS to clans, typically at equal or greater range. Every time someone points to that list...I laugh. That is his opinion to give regular players a "general idea" of what is going to be the best mechs to get into comp play.

In fact, I have heard numerous top tier comp players talk about how easy it is to make a reasonably good Clan build versus IS mechs, because there are so many fewer variables the user has control over on the Clan side.

So, if I was making a starter comp list for newer players, I would point them to clans as well...simply because they cannot run an XL engine in a build that should not have one, nor can they add endo/ferro for mechs that should not use it because they need the space for heatsinks. There are numerous factors that play into things that many novice players will not understand, and thus take that list to mean that clan mechs are completely stronger than IS mechs.

The reality of the situation is...not so much.

A TW is a B+ at almost anything, so is a SCR. However, IS mechs with strong quirks are often significantly better at their niche role (as long as you build to suit the quirks). For example: A Dragon 1N can output more sustained DPS than nearly any clan fire support mech, and the only one that can surpass it, weighs 40 tons more, goes half the speed, and has terrible torso twist and agility, making it a non-starter for CW off the bat.

When you compare a TW to a 5SS med pulse build, the TW will get "rekt" inside about 400m.

The issue is that there are far more novice players among the IS, with no one who understands how all this works to show them the way. The competitive IS units find a way to get it done and do not complain...so why do new players with no organized unit, no one teaching them the ropes, and running solo in CW that is designed to be "hardcore team mode", end up the only ones complaining?

Because they do not understand the game mechanics, or the game play.

Edited by Gyrok, 15 March 2015 - 03:44 PM.

[Gorgo7]

THE CLAN NEEDS MOAR ECM!!! THAT WOULD FIX EVERTHING!!!
RIGHT GYROK?
RIGHT???

[Vxheous]

One of the reasons why the Stormcrow and the Timberwolf appear to be so strong has to do with the very nature of how clan weapons operate. The laser builds for the Stormcrow and Timberwolf (most easily the most popular type of effective build for these mechs) can operate and long ranges (which could be matched by certain Quirked IS mechs + ERLL), while at the same time still able to fight effectively at short ranges (which compared to previously mentioned Quirked IS mechs the TBR/SCR often has more speed/mobility up close). There are some really good brawler IS mechs that can outdo the TBR/SCR laser builds, but cannot match the range reach. So basically, the laser TBR/SCR provides a very easy to build, jack of all trades mech that can function at all ranges, at the expense of heat management. IS mechs on the other hand seem to have to be built fit certain roles better (longe range vs short range). That's not to say that the TBR/SCR cannot be built into effective brawler builds, but then those builds would also give up range advantage. The laser TBR/SCR can be dropped pretty much into any situation, vs any mech, and do well enough (not win all every exchange, but at least hold their own for the most part).

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

I have to agree with Gyrok in this case. The IS has some incredibly powerful niche mechs while the clans certainly sport the best all arounders in the game.

I thunderbolt beats a TW for the tonnage in certain close/midrange rolls but like anything else this is relative to the roll.

[Aresye]

E Rommel, on 15 March 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

Considering Clans started out OP and we've been struggling to balance them ever since, Clan gear still being strong is the most likely explanation. Strong mechs cause them to win more, which inflates their Elo, which then is unsurprisingly in line with their W/L record because that's what you use to calculate it in the first place.

Possible, but is it not also a possibility that players that bought Clan mechs early for real money are comprised of a majority of better players? I mean sure, a few players just have loads of money and were willing to spend it, but I think it's a fair assumption that most people shelling out $200+ for a mech package "likely" had a substantial commitment to the game at the time.

I mainly go by feel when it comes to how I see balance. I feel the TW is undoubtedly the best mech in the game, but on the other hand, I'm perfectly okay with that considering it's the top of its weight class and it wouldn't make sense with all the current mechs available that any of them should be better than the TW. I've loaded up 2 large pulse and 4 mediums on a Jester w/ jump jets and a fast XL and, while I obviously had to play differently to account for the shorter range, my overall effectiveness didn't feel changed, and it fast became one of my favorite loadouts. I think one of my first matches in it I got something like 7 kills and 1000+ damage. In fact, it felt more effective in some ways due to the shorter duration of the lasers, but the main selling point for the TW over it is the Clan XL, which (once again) I'm perfectly okay with. A TW SHOULD be better than a Jester. Now the TDR-5SS medium pulse boat is even more effective than the Jester build, and that thing runs a standard engine, with no heat penalties for losing a side torso. Sure, it runs slower, but if you're in effective range with a TBR and it's out-DPSing you, I guarantee you the problem is not with the tech.

Competitive teams also wouldn't be switching from Clan to IS very often if the tech advantage was high enough that they didn't feel confident they could beat the majority of organized Clan loyalists. Teamwork and individual ability still play a larger role in the overall outcome.

[Divine Retribution]

Gyrok, on 15 March 2015 - 03:44 PM, said:

Good points in it, go read it above.

QFT, esp. metamechs.

A lot of clan players have been playing MWO since closed beta. I've noticed a lot of IS solo players are newer, simply want to have fun running suboptimal builds, and seemingly aren't interested in advice or joining a unit. There are resources and recruitment threads all over the forums for anyone interested. Many of those IS solo players probably don't even visit the forums. There's no way to balance that vs. a clan 12-man running optimized builds without completely breaking the game in favor of the IS. If those solo players want to run suboptimal builds and do their own thing while trying to fight in CW then they need to accept the consequences (being stomped).

Experienced IS units are on par with experienced clan units, the difference is that many experienced IS units are fighting other IS units. The few days of the New Star League, when there was a ceasefire between all IS factions, the IS held its own. If the average Elo of clan players is higher than the average Elo of IS players, how much worse is it when you consider many of the better IS players are fighting other IS players? What do you think the Elo average difference between the clan and IS pilots that fight each other? I bet it is much worse than the difference between clan and IS Elo averages in general. Elo isn't used in CW matchmaking but it can reflect why matches turn out the way that they do.

PGI can't fix players...

Edited by Divine Retribution, 16 March 2015 - 03:33 AM.

[L3mming2]

Divine Retribution, on 16 March 2015 - 03:26 AM, said:

QFT, esp. metamechs.

A lot of clan players have been playing MWO since closed beta. I've noticed a lot of IS solo players are newer, simply want to have fun running suboptimal builds, and seemingly aren't interested in advice or joining a unit. There are resources and recruitment threads all over the forums for anyone interested. Many of those IS solo players probably don't even visit the forums. There's no way to balance that vs. a clan 12-man running optimized builds without completely breaking the game in favor of the IS. If those solo players want to run suboptimal builds and do their own thing while trying to fight in CW then they need to accept the consequences (being stomped).

Experienced IS units are on par with experienced clan units, the difference is that many experienced IS units are fighting other IS units. The few days of the New Star League, when there was a ceasefire between all IS factions, the IS held its own. If the average Elo of clan players is higher than the average Elo of IS players, how much worse is it when you consider many of the better IS players are fighting other IS players? What do you think the Elo average difference between the clan and IS pilots that fight each other? I bet it is much worse than the difference between clan and IS Elo averages in general. Elo isn't used in CW matchmaking but it can reflect why matches turn out the way that they do.

PGI can't fix players...

i am saying this after having bought the dire, TW, stormcrow (for real money)
the best way to level the elo playingfield, cut the top clan mechs C-bill prize in half.

"noobs" will flock to the cheap mechs, the clan avrage elo will plumet

[Gyrok]

L3mming2, on 16 March 2015 - 04:54 AM, said:

i am saying this after having bought the dire, TW, stormcrow (for real money)
the best way to level the elo playingfield, cut the top clan mechs C-bill prize in half.

"noobs" will flock to the cheap mechs, the clan avrage elo will plumet

While cost of entry is an issue...you are looking at initial cost.

If you take an equal weight IS mech, buy it for cbills, buy a similar size XL engine, upgrade to endo and DHS, then buy your weapons...miraculously they cost about the same. The clan mech is just a finished product, while the IS mech is completely tier 1 tech typically, which is much cheaper; however, it must also be upgraded/replaced to be competitive.

For example:

SHD is typically about 5.5 mil cbills

5,500,000 cbills mech
1,500,000 cbils DHS
500,000 cbills endo
4,000,000 cbills XL engine
--------------------------------------
11,500,000 cbills total

New Stormcrow cost: ~11,500,000 cbills

Coincidence? I think not. In TT the stormcrow cost as much as a TW does now...of course, some of the IS mechs were much more expensive as well.

Edited by Gyrok, 16 March 2015 - 06:37 AM.

[L3mming2]

Gyrok, on 16 March 2015 - 06:34 AM, said:

While cost of entry is an issue...you are looking at initial cost.

If you take an equal weight IS mech, buy it for cbills, buy a similar size XL engine, upgrade to endo and DHS, then buy your weapons...miraculously they cost about the same. The clan mech is just a finished product, while the IS mech is completely tier 1 tech typically, which is much cheaper; however, it must also be upgraded/replaced to be competitive.

For example:

SHD is typically about 5.5 mil cbills

5,500,000 cbills mech
1,500,000 cbils DHS
500,000 cbills endo
4,000,000 cbills XL engine
--------------------------------------
11,500,000 cbills total

New Stormcrow cost: ~11,500,000 cbills

Coincidence? I think not. In TT the stormcrow cost as much as a TW does now...of course, some of the IS mechs were much more expensive as well.

yes all correct, but...

to master a IS chassi you dont need to buy the XL 3 times (and with a bit of luck you have the XL and dont have to buy it at all) on top of that u can sell the 3 engines you get with the mechs, and for most players u dont have to start form scratch module wise...

and realy this is besides the point, the way it curently is results in a big gap between avrage elo of clans and IS.
this results in a 64% win rate for clans, and makes it hell to play CW for any IS players not in a good IS clan (AKA bring your own high elo budies ore get wrekt)