264 replies to this topic

[Agent 0 Fortune]

The thought of Clan OMNIMECHs being able to change their engine from XL to standard to avoid a 20% speed penalty for torso destruction, got me thinking and I decided to run the numbers.

35 ton Adder - 210 Engine, top speed 97.2 khp
Same weight Standard Engine is rated 155, with a top speed of 71.7 kph
This a 26% top speed decrease, I guess losing a torso and 20% speed is looking pretty good right now.

55 ton Stormcrow – 330 Engine, top speed 97.2 kph
Same weight Standard Engine is rated 260, with a top speed of 76.6 kph
21% top speed decrease, so it is only slightly worse than running around without a torso, except for the entire match.

75 ton Timberwolf – 275 Engine, top speed 81.0 kph
Same weight Standard Engine is rated at 300 (with a spare half ton), top speed 64.8 kph
20% decrease in top speed. Dead even, finally you are just as capable running a standard engine all match as you are the final seconds of your pitiful existence after losing a torso.

100 ton Direwolf – 300 Engine, top speed 48.6 kph
Same weight Standard Engine is rated at 210, top speed 34.8 KPH
And the added benefit of losing 12 critical slots to accommodate those extra External DHS
I could actually see this going standard 300, sacrifice 9.5 tons of pod space, just to free up those 2 crit slots in the side torso.

Of course they could be required to keep the same Engine size which means losing pod space
Adder: - 4.5 tons
Stormcrow: -12.5 tons
Timberwolf: -19.5 tons
Direwolf: -9.5 tons

[Hillslam]

clan players will complain about anything. The whining has been nonstop since pgi announced their plans for clans in CB. 20% slower is better than dead. The clan XL *IS* the same option as IS STD engines with all the advantages and none of the penalties. Have some pride. Stop lieing to get your baked in crutch.

This aint the PVE of MW4 where you got to be the single player hero. This aint a 25 year old board game between two people, one pushing 12 pieces around, one pushing 10pieces around. This is PVP where everyone has as much right to be a hero as the next. You just gotta earn it by playing better. Ooooooh.

I can do the math, i can build mechs, I pilot mechs. I own both IS and clan mechs. When I want easy mode I jump into my TBR and wreck face. Then I go back to my IS mechs. I *know* which are better and which are worse. No amount of blahblahblahing on the forums changes that. not for me and not for anyone else who plays both and is honest.

If you really need to play a game that props you up as a superman, I don't know, go play Skyrim or something.

I'm sorry you suck. But in a level playing field some people won't be as good as others. But you don't want a level playing field now do you? Me, I'd play this if we all played the exact same chassis. Because I DO want a level playing field. And anytime I wonder if its even, I jump into my own clan or IS mechs for my own damn self and see with my own eyes.

See sig. Learn how to play against other humans.

Edited by Hillslam, 17 March 2015 - 04:38 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hillslam, on 17 March 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

clan players will complain about anything. The whining has been nonstop since pgi announced their plans for clans in CB. 20% slower is better than dead. The clan XL *IS* the same option as IS STD engines with all the advantages and none of the penalties. Have some pride. Stop lieing to get your baked in crutch.

This aint the PVE of MW4 where you got to be the single player hero. This aint a 25 year old board game between two people, one pushing 12 pieces around, one pushing 10pieces around. This is PVP where everyone has as much right to be a hero as the next. You just gotta earn it by playing better. Ooooooh.

I can do the math, i can build mechs, I pilot mechs. I own both IS and clan mechs. When I want easy mode I jump into my TBR and wreck face. Then I go back to my IS mechs. I *know* which are better and which are worse. No amount of blahblahblahing on the forums changes that. not for me and not for anyone else who plays both and is honest.

I'm sorry you suck. But in a level playing field some people won't be as good as others. But you don't want a level playing field now do you? Me, I'd play this if we all played the exact same chassis. Because I DO want a level playing field. And anytime I wonder if its even, I jump into my own clan or IS mechs for my own damn self and see with my own eyes.

Such blatant generalizations and strawmen, this post amazes me, but then again, you never wanted to make a logical post did you ?

• Many clan mechs are strong and are often better than IS alternatives, particularly the heavies.
  
• Not all clan mechs benefit from the better tech, all clan lights currently in-game included.
  
• Then of course there is the "clan" player comment. Not all of is strictly play Clan, and a lot of us agree that something needs to be done.
  
• Also, Clans weren't announced in Closed Beta, they were announced somewhere around a year ago and there were many worries that Clans were going to be over-nerfed out of the gate.

More often than not, the clan mechs that are outclassed, suffer because of the inability to customize which means as the tech divide shrinks, the customization needs to be opened up to compensate for the lower end. This is all on top of quirks. There is more to this discussion than "CLAN TECH IS OP/CLAN TECH IS BAD" because the benefits of the tech changes depending on the weight class and role. Not to mention someone like me is against nerfing the engine because I think a buff to IS XLs and standard engines would be healthier for the game in general and reduce the quirks needed to bring the IS mechs up to par with the god tier mechs.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 17 March 2015 - 04:48 PM.

[Mad Dog Morgan]

If they do this, they'll need to buff ST internals on the outlying mechs that aren't exactly up to par with the 'big bad mean things' like the Dire Wolf, Stormcrow, Timber Wolf, and Hellbringer.

The Nova has huge ST's, and as such probably should receive at least something to ensure that this particular change doesn't hit it too hard. Same thing with the Summoner and the slower light mechs.

It's likely that another balance pass will have to happen after this change. In the mean time, while my unit wants to play for SJ, I'm going to do pug drops with muh new mechies.

[Aresye]

I had great fun last night dealing with good players in Stalkers and Thunderbolts. The best parts were when they could show barely a pixel's width of their height over a hill and still manage to focus all their lasers on my mech, despite the fact I was behind cover (or so I thought). Turns out Clan mechs not only don't have hard points high enough to shoot over hills, but their cockpits aren't even high enough to see the enemy shooting and hitting them. Loads of fun.

The side torso speed penalty made sense before any of the quirks came out, but the whole balance has already shifted in terms of IS vs Clan when it comes to a competitive CW dropdeck, and IS keeps getting more and more advantages while the Clans continuously narrow themselves down to two mechs (guess which ones?) to remain competitive.

Yes, on paper the Clans still have the advantage because of their magical XL engine and higher damage output, but all that extra damage with laser vomit has lately been completely nullified by crap HSR.

Fixing hit reg should be the #1 priority before making balance adjustments, because right now the IS laser vomit seems to be registering damage just fine, while Clan laser vomit barely seems to scratch paint.

In other words, I'm fine taking another nerf if my mechs were actually performing in-game the way they were designed to, but as of right now, my Stormcrows and Timberwolves can't match the DPS that all these Stalkers and Thunderbolts are capable of doing with their tiny profile, shorter burn, and better damage registration. It's like trying to fight a single pixel that's not only hard to see, but can core a side torso before you even realize you're being shot at.

[Kilo 40]

Speed reduction after losing a ST was the way to go from the start. Increasing heat after losing a ST(and half your weapons) never made any sense.

[Zoid]

WTF is the big deal? You lose a side torso, your XL engine is effectively downgraded to a standard one. IS straight-up die.

[Mcgral18]

Hillslam, on 17 March 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

I can do the math, i can build mechs, I pilot mechs. I own both IS and clan mechs. When I want easy mode I jump into my TBR and wreck face. Then I go back to my IS mechs. I *know* which are better and which are worse. No amount of blahblahblahing on the forums changes that. not for me and not for anyone else who plays both and is honest.

Now, go jump into a Fridge, Badder, Cute Fox, NoVa, Summoner, PeaceDove or a Mr Gargles.


You know, the MAJORITY of the Clam selection.



Your posts are nothing but bias garbage, of someone who hasn't used anything but the God Tier, and supports blanket nerfing the terribad robots.


Please get a clue.

[Reitrix]

A heat penalty would be perfect, hell its noticeable now just not enough that it makes a difference because you lose half your weapons too. Speed nerfs just make the less powerful Omnis even weaker.

The problem is our Heat Cap is just toodamnedhigh.jpg.
If we had a global heat cap of say 35, then a Clan 'Mech losing a Side Torso and having -10 to the Heat Cap would be brutal.
But no, we have a stupid high Heat Cap that gets worse when you add in the +20% Heat Cap and +15% Heat Dissipation Elite skills.
(As an aside, you could even balance SHS vs DHS to let SHS increase Capacity at the cost of Cooling while DHS increases Cooling at the cost of Capacity. gets rid of the DHS Tax many 'IS Mechs are forced to pay to be usable)

Deleting the Skill Trees and giving each 'mech unique chassis unlocks goes a good way towards fixing balance issues. Hell, many 'Mechs don't even benefit from half the Tree, and the pinpoint one has been a placeholder for years.

Just decoupling the Engine Size with Agility would go a LONG way to fixing issues.
Engine Size should only dictate top speed, not the speed at which you can move your Torso/Arms.
Acceleration/Decceleration, Pitch/Yaw and Arm Reflex speeds should all be determined per 'Mech (Another way to differentiate the variants) with the size of your Engine only affecting your top speed.
That alone would allow 'Mechs like the Gargoyle to not be stuck with Assault movement archeatypes that severely hamper its effectiveness.
Would also allow PGI to hammer nerfs into the Timber Wolf without ruining the Omnis that are already struggling to be useful.

Edited by Reitrix, 17 March 2015 - 06:16 PM.

[Hillslam]

Mcgral18, on 17 March 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

Now, go jump into a Fridge, Badder, Cute Fox, NoVa, Summoner, PeaceDove or a Mr Gargles.

You know, the MAJORITY of the Clam selection.

Your posts are nothing but bias garbage, of someone who hasn't used anything but the God Tier, and supports blanket nerfing the terribad robots.

Please get a clue.

Please. Get a clue yourself. There are as many trash IS mechs as clan ones. More.
You posted a pile of wrong assumptions about what I want, own, drive and play in.
I want a fair game. These whining betches, yourself included, don't. They/you want an advantage. Just say it. Own it.

I own all those clan mechs btw. Mastered em all. I do just fine in them. I drive them, I drive IS mechs. I know whats what. I don't need self righteous forum froots trying to tell me 2+2=3.

People that can't do well in them can't play well. Period. They want a crutch. They want better gear than their competition because they can't handle a fair fight. They want to play MW2, 3 or 4 vs PVE but since MWO is only PVP they want a gear advantage. Period. The rest are lies and obfuscation.

I can't help it that they suck, and when I drive those they work just fine for me.

Unbiased? More like tired of reading the whining and calling it like it is. That = butthurt for some. I'm not going to get into an argument about it. I know what it is, and when I see betches whining I've decided for now on I'm gonna call em on it. I'm gonna swoop in, call em on it, then swoop out. To go play and shoot them in the game.

Just don't delude yourself that I am even remotely the only one who sees this whining for what it is. Or is calling it out for what it is. Not even by a long shot. I know you guys want to tell the lie enough times that it sticks. Sucks when that gets interupted huh?

Edited by Hillslam, 17 March 2015 - 06:49 PM.

[Livewyr]

Zoid, on 17 March 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

WTF is the big deal? You lose a side torso, your XL engine is effectively downgraded to a standard one. IS straight-up die.

We also have 3 effective weapons in Community Warfare.. (ERLL/Gauss/ERML)
All of the clan quirks combined (including today) do not equal the IS quirks on a hunchback.
You can run a bug standard because you don't need nearly as many heatsinks to run the same amount of weaponry. (6 LL STK is the new 6PPC Stalker... created by PGI)

[Eider]

Thunderbolt says.. ahahahahaha. Come on these changes arent insane, fact that my timberwolf can outrace many lights is kinda an issue.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hillslam, on 17 March 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Please. Get a clue yourself. There are as many trash IS mechs as clan ones. More.

There are also more IS chassis than clan, 35 to 13 currently. Ratios are important...

Hillslam, on 17 March 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

People that can't do well in them can't play well. Period. They want a crutch. They want better gear than their competition because they can't handle a fair fight. They want to play MW2, 3 or 4 vs PVE but since MWO is only PVP they want a gear advantage. Period. The rest are lies and obfuscation.

Quite the assumption that you have no proof of, nor could you out right infer just because someone says blanket clam nerfs are bad.

The rest of your post is just ad hominem and anecdotal drivel.

[Mcgral18]

Hillslam, on 17 March 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Just don't delude yourself that I am even remotely the only one who sees this whining for what it is. Or is calling it out for what it is. Not even by a long shot. I know you guys want to tell the lie enough times that it sticks. Sucks when that gets interupted huh?

You mean you only want to face 3 mechs in CW?


Because that's all blanket nerfs are going to do.


Bad robots will not be taken. Won't stop the crusade, of course.


CLAMS OP PLZ NERF!1!

[Shredhead]

Livewyr, on 17 March 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:

We also have 3 effective weapons in Community Warfare.. (ERLL/Gauss/ERML)

You wot? Ever tried those LPL, MPL and streaks? No, you haven't, because otherwise you couldn't whine about light rushes.

Quote

All of the clan quirks combined (including today) do not equal the IS quirks on a hunchback.

And why is that? Because even a freaking Kit Fox outguns, outranges and outruns a Hunchback. Get a grip on reality.

Quote

You can run a bug standard because you don't need nearly as many heatsinks to run the same amount of weaponry. (6 LL STK is the new 6PPC Stalker... created by PGI)

The 6 LL Stalker is bad, 5 LL is way superior. But you know what's even better? A Timber Wolf. And a Storm Crow. And a Hellbringer. And a Dire Wolf.

[Mystere]

GeneralArmchair, on 17 March 2015 - 07:38 AM, said:

Hmm, speed reduction still sounds a hell of a lot better than death. I think you're still getting a great deal.

Not when it's all "take" and not "give and take". And no, those pitiful Clan quirks do not count.

[Mcgral18]

Shredhead, on 17 March 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

And why is that? Because even a freaking Kit Fox outguns, outranges and outruns a Hunchback. Get a grip on reality.

Dafuq? You mind showing us this Cute Fox? I don't think they can mount AC100's.

Quote

The 6 LL Stalker is bad, 5 LL is way superior. But you know what's even better? A Timber Wolf. And a Storm Crow. And a Hellbringer. And a Dire Wolf.

You know, the Stalkers LLs have less heat than the Clams MLs. 5.6. Fun stuff.


Who brings Whales? Yes, the only mechs that are brought are the GodTier duo, and the Loki. A token light is occasionally taken as a suicidal scounting pawn.

[Shredhead]

Mcgral18, on 17 March 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

Dafuq? You mind showing us this Cute Fox? I don't think they can mount AC100's.

80 damage in 5 seconds
Outranged + ECM
Just two examples that could easily outplay the unquirked Hunchback. And that's a 30 ton mech.
Kinky builds that are also really good:
Mid range harasser
Flyswatter

Now, Adders are better for most of these builds, but calling these clan lights bad is bullshit.

Quote

You know, the Stalkers LLs have less heat than the Clams MLs. 5.6. Fun stuff.

You know you can't ever put an XL in a Stalker, and the engine is capped. So it is slow as crap and its heat dissipation sucks balls.

Quote

Who brings Whales? Yes, the only mechs that are brought are the GodTier duo, and the Loki. A token light is occasionally taken as a suicidal scounting pawn.

Yeah, but that's also mostly because mech geometry and hardpoint placement, nothing a quirk can change. Sadly PGI missed the chance to give the Summoner a good 4th variant, and chose to give them one that adds absolutely nothing to the chassis. The Gargle profits massively from the new variant, for example.
Also the god tier and tier 1 mechs like Hellbringer have very convenient weight for CW.

[MischiefSC]

There are like 6 good IS mechs. 8 if you count very specific builds on IS mechs.

How many good Clan *builds* are there? You have less mechs but each Clan mech is 3 or 4 mechs put in one. Your Scrow is a streakboat, SRM boat, LRM boat, laser-vomit mech. TW is gauss/PPC sniper, LRM boat, SRM boat, Streakboat, laservomit and can even boat some ACs (not that it's generally a good idea).

In terms of total competitive builds the Clan and the IS are comparable. The IS has no competitive SRM/Streak mechs - none. IS mechs really shouldn't bother with missiles. Clan mechs can actually bring them and use them competitively. Conversely IS can run some AC builds (should run them actually) while all Clan ACs are garbage.

Total builds though? Pretty much even. That those builds on the Clans are *all* on Tier 1 mech chassis is a huge difference. Scrow, TW, Hellbringer. Several of the competitive IS builds are on Tier 2 Chassis that due to quirks can work a specific weapon loadout really well.

The difference is that Clan mechs bring more firepower for the ton than IS mechs. Across 4 total waves the Clans have an advantage. That's why the IS has to really, really bring it in the first 2 or 3 waves - because on wave 4 the Clans will still have 55 ton mechs with a 70 ton mechs firepower and the IS will be down to lights. Even if you look at the Firestarter (which has a medium mechs firepower on a light mech) it's still going to be out-gunned.

Tell you what - you can swap your XL for an equal weight Standard, just like the IS can, just that you die when your ST is blown out instead of a penalty. I'd be 100% in favor of that.

If you told IS pilots that they could click a box where on that mech they are locked into a specific size of XL but only take a heat/speed penalty when a ST is blown out we'd all take it. We'd be idiots not to. It's still utterly superior to dying when ST is blown out.

Here is the difference between Clan and IS XLs -

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Shredhead, on 17 March 2015 - 08:40 PM, said:

80 damage in 5 seconds
Outranged + ECM
Just two examples that could easily outplay the unquirked Hunchback. And that's a 30 ton mech.
Kinky builds that are also really good:
Mid range harasser
Flyswatter

Now, Adders are better for most of these builds, but calling these clan lights bad is bullshit.

Why are you comparing the Clan lights to one of the worst mechs mediums before they were quirked? That's a rigged comparison, and even then, at least one of the Hunchbacks could take the Kit Fox. With quirks though, the Hunchback absolutely shows the differences between the two.

Shredhead, on 17 March 2015 - 08:40 PM, said:

You know you can't ever put an XL in a Stalker, and the engine is capped. So it is slow as crap and its heat dissipation sucks balls.

You know the 6 LL Stalker has never run an XL engine, ever...

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 17 March 2015 - 08:58 PM.