102 replies to this topic

[feor]

We should have ERPPCs at launch, according to the Tech Manual they were recovered in the Sphere in 3037.

According to the TM the PPC is less effecitve at ranges less than 90m where its particle field is intentionally inhibited to prevent unfocused static from frying the firers electronics.

TO me that says that if you try to fire at ranges less than 90m you should do less damage and probably get the HUD static that MW4 implemented as a side effect of getting hit BY a PPC.

[VYCanis]

I could see this being a good place to introduce the different makes and models approach to the weapon classes.

Brand A of PPC might deal full damage within minimum range, but has a significant chance of temporarily going offline if it attempts this. (2-4x longer cooldown time)
Brand B of PPC might deal reduced damage and have it divided over multiple locations on the enemy if it tries to fire inside minimum range, user has to deal with some HUD interference.
Brand C of PPC might be easier to aim with (faster projectile speed) or have some other above average quality, but simply will not fire inside of minimum range due to hard coded safety inhibitors.

Brand A of LRM arcs but arms instantly, allowing players to aim down to send a hot dumbfire volley of LRMs into someone's face, but otherwise are nearly impossible to brawl with.
Brand B of LRM might soft launch which leads to squirrelly unpredictable behavior inside of the minimum range before they straighten out their flight paths, and have a relatively short arming distance. Allowing players to try, but suffer from very minimal accuracy.
Brand C of LRM might fly more or less straight on but have a relatively prominent arming range in which the missiles only deal a small fraction of their damage should they hit inside of their minimum range.

Edited by VYCanis, 26 November 2011 - 11:41 PM.

[Stunner]

I think in MW2:mercs when you fired a PPC at close range you got some sort of feedback. I think you might of even damaged yourself but it's been so long I can't remember exactly what it was.. I just remember when Piloting my awesome and firing the PPC's at close range I realized it was a bad thing to do.

Missles tended to miss more often if fired at close range in MW2 also mainly because the missles would fly past the mech from the initial launch then have to turn back around in order to hit.

Those that started playing with MW4 didn't really see these issues but it was also a different era with different technology.

[Alleycat]

Ya.. LRMs are easy.. you just arc em up and/or have an "delayed arming" fuse in them... this should be effective at creating a "min" range without issue.

PPC's are a bit harder as the whole concept of a "delayed fuse" makes less sense. still there are options...

1. the PPC will not "converge" on the target until it travels a certain range.. the idea here is that since PPC's are usually in the arms.. if they fire at a mech right in front.. they will miss because they are pointed to hit a target farther away. The downside to this method is taht it really only works for PPCs mounted away from the center of mass, and people can compensate for any divergence (though this does add a "to-hit" modifier!)

2. Maybe something like some other derivations of the PPC where it doesn't become "energized" until a certain range.. this is pretty much the fuse idea I put down earlier, but trying to make it "fluffy". The idea is it may start out as some chaotic "ball of energy" that eventually works its way into a "lethal" force as it travels... But here, IDK how well this fits with all the other "fluff" on PPCs

of course they can be combined.. like above as they are really just variations of the LRM ideas... but I don't see a "technical" problem with it.

[Raeven]

I prefer hot loading. There once were rules for doing it in the board game. Essentially, weapons with minimum ranges were dangerous to you if you disengaged the safeties. With LRM's, they don't arm until they leave the launcher so that damage doesn't cause them to prematurely explode. With the PPC, it was some sort of dampening field to prevent feedback from the weapon.

Hot loading basically allowed you to fire both weapons while ignoring minimum range modifiers, but had a chance of malfunctioning and blowing up in your face/'Mech.

So, with the safeties on...you might not do any damage when you hit.

With the safeties off, you definitely do damage, but you might hurt yourself.

[scolopendra]

Reading through the thread, I like a combination of ideas. Having there be definite differences between makes and models of weapons sounds like the best option, and one best suited to the F2P business model: the sort of little tweaks that people will pay for if they prefer how Holly LRMs work over Coventry LRMs.

For LRMs, the minimum range can be a combination of arming times and missile scatter. If you look at real guided missile launches (or Macross missile spam) the missiles go all over the place then converge on the general location of the target. If the missiles go every which way out of the tubes to prevent missile fratricide, they don't have much time to reconverge on something really close. If the arming timers are randomized as well, then that really does help model the massive 'to-hit' mods at point-blank range: you're hitting the guy, but the missiles are literally splatting without detonating. Could also lead to some memorable clunk-clunk-clunk-thunk sound effects and graphics as missiles bounce and splat off things.

For PPCs... I think the best way is to stick with tabletop canon in a 'clever' way. What the PPC does is converge its particle beam at the range of the target under the crosshairs to get maximum effect. Under a certain range, the inhibitors don't prevent fire (usually) but instead prevents this convergence to avoid splash damage. At that point it becomes a hit-or-miss affair on whether or not the PPC actually converges enough to do damage or whether it 'splashes' harmlessly in a special effects display. Of course, this PPC concept thinks of directed energy weapons as they work in the real world, rather than the old MW2 blue-bolt-o'-doom or Large Laser Plus Plus...

Edited by scolopendra, 27 November 2011 - 12:32 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

The LRM min range has been explained quite well, the warheads take time to arm, inside of a certain range, there's just not enough time for them to arm. TT had a 'hot load' rule, already explained, but it had it's drawbacks..nasty ones at that. Easy enough for PGI to implement these and the consequences depending on your choice, duds that bounce off the target or having your rack of missiles blow up IN the launcher under the right conditions(heat, crits on that location, etc).

PPCs..ah yes..why do they have a min range at all? Well...they tried to explain it in the TT, and actually used good science(pretty rare, I know) for the reason. PPCs aren't a simple 'aim, fire, blow it up' weapon, they are actually a lot more complicated then that and FASA actually got them mostly right on how they fire/operate. I won't go into the physics, but the problem is that the beam doesn't fire as people think. The TT and the novels describe the PPC being fired as blue lighting steaking from the weapon to the target, with arcing occurring all along the length of the beam's travel, literally blindingly bright and accompanied by a thunderclap that can deafen an unprotected person's hearing..ie - don't be outside a Mech and within 100m of it when it fires a PPC, it'll blow your ear drums out..and if you are lucky, that's all it will do. There's a vacuum 'tube' created between the weapon and the target, and there's a rather nasty electrical 'storm' created during this process. At range, which means beyond that min safe firing distance, the effect on the firing platform is minimal..NOT non-existant, but minimal..HUD gets fuzzy, a bit of flash blindiness, due to the arcing electricity coming off the 'beam' as the weapon is fired. Doing so inside the min range creates a problem with that 'storm' being essentially reflected back at the firing Mech unless the field is inhibited, so that the full power of the weapon isn't released, because otherwise, you can quite literally fry the electronics on the Mech that's firing the weapon. It is possible in TT to override that, but it's a dangerous thing to do due to this backlash effect. Again, PGI could easily do this, min range on PPCs at which they do less damage IF you don't override the safety along with a nice flashy electrical display, full damage if you override it but you take splash damage and have a chance of frying your own electronics. Regardless of how they do it, any Mech getting a grazing hit(arm/leg) or near miss from a PPC should get a fuzzy HUD, while a direct hit should kill the HUD entirely, both effects to last a short time, 3-5 seconds sounds good.

[Pvt Dancer]

I will say this... play alot of FPSs and this is rounding up to be one. Warhead arming or whatever doesn't matter...-7 to hit didn't mean if you /did/ hit the missiles didn't work, they worked fine. Same with the PPC... never had you do less damage or anything. You just have the targeting retical 'go big' and make it harder to hit, not impossible to work at.

[Basch]

I think you guys have forgotten about the targeting systems on the mech which should set the "converge" based on where your crosshair are pointed and the range finder feedback. So if your aiming at a target 500m off then all of your weapons should converge at 500m.

[Odin]

Psydotek, on 26 November 2011 - 06:57 PM, said:

I don't believe I've seen a thread dedicated to this "issue" yet. How will the difficulty of hitting a short range target with PPCs and LRMs be represented in the game? (Or how should the short range weakness of PPCs and LRMS be represented in the game?)

In previous games, PPCs were just different colored lasers and LRMs traveled in a straight line to the target (MW4 they arced up at long range but traveled in a straight line at short range). Both were great at all ranges and the only downside of firing at close range was some splash damage.

Perhaps LRMs could always have a forced upward arc (so even if you have a missile lock, the missiles won't be able to curve down in time to hit a short range target)? No ability to lock on inside the minimum range? Loss of missile lock if the target slips inside minimum range before the missiles are fired?

As for PPCs, perhaps spawn the PPC bolt at a certain range? Maybe have the PPC bolt arc wildly/randomly from the cannon to the short range mark making it difficult to hit anything up close (maybe you'll score a hit 1/10 times, maybe you'll hit your lancemate instead)?

Any other ideas? Throw them out here.

Why can't you hit close with a PPC?

[Melissia]

For LRMs-- make a minimum range requirement for lockon.

For PPCs... well, it simply doesn't do damage at point blank range, because of its field inhibitor.

[Melissia]

Odin, on 27 November 2011 - 05:00 AM, said:

Why can't you hit close with a PPC?

From Sarna:

Sarna BT Wiki said:

PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems. This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range.

[shintakie]

Melissia, on 27 November 2011 - 06:16 AM, said:

For LRMs-- make a minimum range requirement for lockon.

For PPCs... well, it simply doesn't do damage at point blank range, because of its field inhibitor.

It not doin damage at point blank range is both bad gameplay and not even canon. You quoted the article yourself that said it only diminished the damage of the weapon, not remove it completely.

Kinda related note based off of what someone said earlier. ERPPC's don't have this issue at all and, unless I'm mistaken, should be available at game launch.

[ice trey]

One way we could handle PPCs is have them with their Field Inhibitors turned off.

The extra rule for tabletop Battletech (In Tacops) allowed PPCs to be fired inside of their minimum range, but the closer the range, the higher chance of electronic feedback coming back into the PPC and shorting it out.

Maybe that would be easier to program - firing the PPC at a target that's too close causes PPC feedback and knocks out your gun.

As for LRMs, from what I hear from the fluff, the minimum range comes from their initially arcing up after being fired, and then coming back down. Sort of like indirect fire, but not quite. That could be a possibility. The other option is having the missiles spread far out from eachother on firing, and come back into tight formation at a certain distance - so that they don't hit each-other during their launch. This wouldn't necessarily make the target harder to hit at short range, but it would at least decrease the number of missiles that hit.

Edited by ice trey, 27 November 2011 - 07:58 AM.

[Hallstatt]

Psydotek, on 26 November 2011 - 08:32 PM, said:

It was supposed to be due to the PPC field inhibitor which was to protect the pilot & 'mech from massive electronic feedback from a close range PPC strike (which could potentially fry circuits and brains). This is one reason why PPCs are supposed to be so effective, they don't just damage armor but mess with electronics.

Make PPC have a blast radio of EMP, so if you're close enough to the hit your radar, reticule and any other eletronic device justs go crazy for a few (how much goes to the balance team to decide) seconds.

For the Missiles, the armed rule goes well. Some just don't arm in time, causing a little (or no) ballitic damage, and only few does trigger the damaging explosions.

[Gunman5000]

Personally I think the LRMs are by far the easiest to deal with. I know the game is being designed to appeal to the masses in some aspect, and as mentioned in several other threads too much "simulation" style mechanics will probably turn away some people. Also as mentioned elsewhere I think there should be an "advanced" option of some kind for those of us who like all the tiny details that "simulation" style games give, such as hot loading LRMs in this case.

I like the idea of different manufacturer's providing different effects for their missiles, not only does it give us the players more variety without having to create new weapons or 'mechs, but it allows us the players to chose how we want to deal with minimum range, or if we want to even bother with it at all. Everything I've seen would be a good way of dealing with the minimum range, increased spread within min range, missiles not arming within min range, missiles arcing upwards on launch, etc etc. If critical hits are introduced into the game again, I think hot loading should definately be possible, if I want to run around with the equivalent of a giant crosshair over my hot-loaded missiles in case I run into an Urbie around the next corner, it should be my choice (obviously within programming limits of the engine whatever they may be).

The PPC on the other hand is a little harder to deal with I think, or at least in a way that will allow the majority of players to accept it. I think decreased damage within minimum range is the easiest way to go, and also follows with most things I've read or seen about PPCs. It doesn't make sense to have them fire all over the place within minimum range to me, but it does make perfect sense that a safety system of some kind (field inhibitor from Tech Manual) would limit the power at close range in order to prevent self-inflicted damage. Again it should be my choice to turn it off and risk overloading various electronics if I want to, but if I feel like unleashing that much EM interference in my own face I should be able to and pay the penalty for it as well. The ER PPC removes the minimum range (no explanation that I can find as to how or why) but produces alot more heat, so there is a trade-off already I think, plus its more expensive and not as common. Maybe, in order to simply keep things similar between the two weapons, have both ER and regular PPCs have EM interferance that messes with your HUD and electronics in various ways that will "hurt" you if you fire too close.

[Oppi]

In the lore (to be specific : the BT novels), LRMs can't activate fast enough below minimum range, and just don't explode when they hit the target.
Firing a PPC at close range means risking the weapon (and possibly the arm it's mounted on) to "splash" damage.

I think they should just make it work that way in the game too.

Quote

but it does make perfect sense that a safety system of some kind (field inhibitor from Tech Manual) would limit the power at close range in order to prevent self-inflicted damage.

You fire protons at your target, thus creating a massive flow of energy towards it. To reduce the power of that energy (and the splash), you would have to reduce the mass of the projectile. That should be nearly impossible in a combat situation, similar to the attempt of cutting a missile or AC grenade in half to reduce the damage it does.
The novels never mentioned anything like that as well.

Edited by Oppi, 27 November 2011 - 11:02 AM.

[Black Sunder]

As other have stated. PPCs should have a minimum range. Any closer than that you're risking not only your mech but possibly your team. Action->Consequence.

I also agree with LRMs having a minimum range because of warhead arming times.

Besides isn't close range for secondary weapons like SRMs and Medium lasers? Huh huh?

[Psydotek]

Black Sunder, on 27 November 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

...Besides isn't close range for secondary weapons like SRMs and Medium lasers? Huh huh?

Absolutely. I hoping having a critical weakness for certain weapons will force people to consider the value of diverse loadouts either on individual 'mechs (depending on how customization is handled) or when deciding which 'mechs to bring for a mission (if you want to bring that Awesome then you better make sure you have someone piloting a 'mech that can protect it at close range).

Edited by Psydotek, 27 November 2011 - 12:59 PM.

[Zakatak]

PPC's should cause EMP damage to yourself within 30 meters, and Heat damage within 15 meters.
LRM's should be inert until 75 meters, to prevent splash damage (fluff reasoning), like modern day weapons.