50 replies to this topic

[thehwdge]

Maybe it's just me but i find brawling other giant mechs with my giant mech much more fun that shooting at ants from a kilometer away or just leaving a paperweight on my LRM macro,

but all butthurt and salt aside, how do these med/heavy or even assault brawlers manage to survive walking to the distance where they're close enough to get their weapons off in a map like tourmaline?

Edited by thehwdge, 18 March 2015 - 07:07 PM.

[RedEagle86]

Cover, ECM, AMS, slightly larger than expected engines, front-loaded armour, torso-twisting, and staying with the group (even if it's a group of assaults).

That's generally enough for me.

[Koniving]

Quite a feat.
Edit: Added several lighter-than-55-ton medium mechs, as well as the epic battles of the Stalker.

Consider these:
The situation from here. Most directly related to what you asked.


Plenty more here for the three suggested brawling weight classes.

Spoiler

Assaults:
Skip to 6:20.


Same mech, nearly a year into the future. Skip to 5:40.


Chase cam -- Atlas. Action begins around 2 but gets heavy near 3 minutes, despite being out in the open you'll notice I'm not the center of attention. Not being meta makes you a lower priority than everyone else. Just a thought. (Also note: I'm sharing a TS channel, I'm only in this match with the mute Lordred in this video; Lordred is the perspective we're seeing it from. The other voices are in a different match and continue to coordinate even after our match ends so this is 1 assault 1 light against...lots of enemies and not a full group).


This one focuses on a different player but I am there as a background character. Chase cam.


Super Assault mania! The ultimate in brawling technology -- highly NOT recommended. This is hard mode incarnate.

Spoiler

Flamer Stalker

Flamer Stalker epic fight (6 versus 1! Many kills but death!) -- 2013

Flamer Stalker -- 2014 (Several nearly impossible fights, all survived!)

Heavies.
Two man Thunderbolt team, before Thunderbolts were quirked.


Chase cam -- Cataphract.


Chase cam -- Jagermech


Timber Wolf.




Mediums:
Griffin. Skip to 2:50, when the music changes away from the 8-bit theme, you'll hear all heck break loose.


Wolverine, during a bad state of the meta -- basically hard mode.


Kintaro. Many mistakes are made here, some deliberate some not so deliberate.


50 tons
Wang 1


Wang 2


Centurion. Probably the worst brawling build to ever exist, and still does damn good. Seriously some good brawling stuff here.


Play a Hunchback like a Clanner! Ignore the Cicada bit at the beginning, it wasn't meant to be in the video.

I have lights as well, but I don't recommend it for quite a while.

Edited by Koniving, 18 March 2015 - 07:51 PM.

[thehwdge]

Koniving, on 18 March 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

Quite a feat.

I have lights as well, but I don't recommend it for quite a while.

any tips for an aspiring kgc 000 player?
ive been told to ditch the ac20s and swap in gauss or boat ballistic but i'm not sure if thats the way to go on the crabs

[Koniving]

thehwdge, on 18 March 2015 - 07:44 PM, said:

any tips for an aspiring kgc 000 player?
ive been told to ditch the ac20s and swap in gauss or boat ballistic but i'm not sure if thats the way to go on the crabs

Do machine guns count?
If you can get close enough for MGs....heh.
KGC inspired brawler (Warhawk). Lots of cover though. Epic slaughter is still worth while.

Two KGC vids.
This one uses tunnels and cover, but once close it takes advantage of the fact that no one takes MGs seriously... Then shows you what not to do.


This one has considerably more success.


Though truth be told I didn't start doing decent in King Crabs until my MG + AC/2 + Gauss build. Keep in mind I have yet to get elites for the King Crabs.

AC/20s are great if you can get close. But, they also scream "ZOMG I WANT TO DIE!" Because, well, you're dangerous.
Quad UAC/5s don't require close range, but they scream much louder.

It's honestly hard to say. You're in a mech that gets a lot of attention, and you need to lose that attention. If only you had an Irhadian Veil. You'll get the reference with the link and maybe a minute of your time.

There's a reason the King Crab is called the Hangar Queen. Perhaps instead of approaching your enemy, you should let them approach you? Surprise them. Ambush them.

Edited by Koniving, 18 March 2015 - 08:07 PM.

[John80sk]

4 UAC5's or Gauss+Lasers is generally the preferred way to go with the crab, especially PUG queue wise.

The Crab's a bit fat and slow for brawling. Mediums and fast heavies are usually better suited for brawling in PUG drops.

[Tim East]

To OP: Speed. Speed is the single most important factor to get to close range to use all those big brawling weapons. Without speed, cover becomes difficult to reach. Without speed, armor melts in the face of sniper fire. Without speed, AMS runs out of ammo. Without speed, the team will leave you behind. Without speed, ECM just makes it so snipers have to pick a location to focus individually. Without speed, your torso will twist too slow to be of much use.

Call me a light mech pilot, but ze speed is ze life.

Of all the things after speed to take to be good at brawling, I'm a fan of ECM, weapons, armor, and BAP. In that order. Yes, BAP gets a mention of its own, and yes, it is good enough to deserve it.

@Kon: I have something of a soft spot in my heart for the 6MG crab. I ran a 2LBX 4MG one for a while that could chew through the face of anything silly enough to stare at me. Dire Wolf, eat your heart out.

Edited by Tim East, 18 March 2015 - 08:08 PM.

[Koniving]

Expanding on the Hangar Queen motif...
Ambushes.
Twin AC/20 Ambush 1 - short buildup.
Twin AC/20 Ambush 2 - slow buildup, but totally worth it in this group versus group battle.

Solo ambush!

Group-staged ambush (Victor)

[Nothing Whatsoever]

The main thing about the idea of a Brawler is that once a Brawler engages an enemy that means you're often in it until your enemy dies or you do, and its often easy to over extend with one.

There are two general types of Brawler, the one that hits and then engages in defense maneuvers and the one that is all in with DPS and sustained damage.

I feel that King Crab builds are more fun with sustained DPS, I ran 4 AC/5s on mine since its also harder to protect those STs anyway. The Atlas is one good example for a Brawler that hits and then twists to spread damage since it has reasonable torso hitboxes and big arm hitboxes that can cover the torsos when twisting and moving.

So you gotta know the maps, so that you can stay concealed for as long as possible as you move into position.


Brawlers can sometimes move with a flank maneuver to engage the enemy, the key is knowing when to strike and commit. Otherwise it's better to act as the anchor for the flanking maneuver, especially with a slow foot speed.

[Void Angel]

thehwdge, on 18 March 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

Maybe it's just me but i find brawling other giant mechs with my giant mech much more fun that shooting at ants from a kilometer away or just leaving a paperweight on my LRM macro,

but all butthurt and salt aside, how do these med/heavy or even assault brawlers manage to survive walking to the distance where they're close enough to get their weapons off in a map like tourmaline?

Most of this is touched on in Koniving's videos or other posts, but allow me to offer a few tidbits of advice:

• How do you get over open ground to close with the enemy on large maps? You don't. No matter where you want to go, there is a covered route to get there. A particular route may not be feasible depending on how long you'd take to use it, but there is always a way to get close - and ways they can avoid you, too.
  
• While speed is not essential, it should not be discounted. Speed is useful for all chassis: a 100-ton 'Mech that's going 48KPH with speed tweak is simply too slow to keep up and respond to enemies on the battlefield - but by the same token, you don't have to cram in the biggest engine you possibly can. More than speed, I find bad navigation and distractibility to be the main probmlems in Assaults' maneuvering woes. Decide where you want to go and keep going until you need to go somewhere else, or are forced to stop and fight (such as getting caught by an aggressive light.) Don't be the Starebear pilot that stops to shoot back on River City, and then complains that everyone always leaves the Dire Wolves behind. =)
  
• Damage spreading is key to brawling in all chassis. Even with a UAC Starebear Dire Wolf or DakkaCrab, you will have times when most or all of your ACs have jammed, or you need to cool down - or you may need to turn your shoulder when your CT is about to be destroyed, and just absorb damage while your team pours fire into the enemy. Even if you don't do a lot of damage, just by making the enemy destroy the maximum number of components on your 'mech while you distract them from your teammates can be enough to drive a win - making torso twisting and spreading damage a core brawler skill.
  
• Heat sustainability is also key. If you overheat in 8 seconds, you're not going to be able to sustain brawling; you can get by with much less heat efficiency for some 'mechs - an AC/40 BoomJaeger is technically a brawler, but realistically it just wants to pop up over cover and plug you, then hide some more. Any serious brawler is designed to survive face-time with the enemy, and that means not being able to keep punching that enemy in the face.
  
• Next, whether you're an Assault or Heavy brawler, or a Medium skirmisher, you should be familiar with the central principle of driving a Brawling Assault - the Maxim of Inevitability. Most decisions to engage the enemy in something really big, like an Atlas, Banshee, or Dire Wolf brawler are not... revocable. I learned early on in my Assault career that if I walked around a corner with my Atlas brawler and saw every enemy and his Clanner uncle start to point their guns at me, it's already too late to try and return to cover. Often an assault would not survive backing into cover, and will in any case take so much damage from the enemy that he's combat ineffective if he does survive. Meanwhile, the enemy guns are recycling, and their heat sinks are cooling their 'mechs. Once a brawler, particularly an Assault brawler, commits to a fight, it's often effectively impossible for to extricate themselves. This means that you need to bear in mind how long you'll have to be out of cover every time you walk around the corner, badger your scouts for enemy locations, and try to engage only part of your team if you can. And if you get caught? Well, it's time to leave an Atlas-shaped hole in the enemy team, and let the tears fall where they may.
  
• Finally, armor is a resource. Think of it as a sort of ammunition for combat. Sure, you want to spend it as little as possible - but it's not possible to avoid spending it completely. So trust your armor; use it to deal more damage than you took, and to protect you while you engage and possibly distract the enemy team. Damage is like water; you can drown in the river, but getting a little wet won't hurt you - and brawling is the art of learning to swim.

[zudukai]

Void Angel, on 18 March 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

Damage is like water; you can drown in the river, but getting a little wet won't hurt you - and brawling is the art of learning to swim.

indeed! well put.

[SnagaDance]

If you're able to apply all the lessons about arriving near the enemy team without any (real) damage then the dual AC/20 King Crab can be devastating. Just had another 4 kill battle with it yesterday, which is not a rare occurence. And that's with just Basics completed.

I haven't tried the dual gauss KC. I personally find the arms rather low slung for such a build. I will ahve to try the quad AC/5 though, I've seen that used to devestating effect.

[Nightshade24]

Quote

Brawler is a battlefield role performed by certain models of 'Mechs, primarily those that are slower and equipped with either long range weaponry or heavier amounts of armor.

Spoiler

Quote

Brawlers are considered to have less mobility than some other combatants, such as Skirmishers, but compensate for this with long range weaponry and more or heavier armor. Most often assigned to assault missions, they also serve to protect the slower Juggernauts.

Considered poor performers in mobile or long-term battle scenarios, they do well in defensive roles or assaults on geographic locations, such as fortresses. Their escort role for Juggernauts can be reversed, with good effect upon similar enemy 'Mechs, especially when paired up with one or two other Brawlers. They are also effective at forcing Snipers and Missile boats from stationary positions.

Source: Sarna.


Brawler implies normally an average speed mech with good armour to take hits but some range weapons.

This mostly excludes anything that's a 90 tonner or heavier as they often do not have the speed to be a 'brawler' unless putting a engine rating 400 to come close to the definition.

It also means nothing that is a light mech and anything that's a 40 ton medium.


So that narrows down what a brawler is, it also means to have a long range weapon.

ie a stock Centurion mech, most configs are brawlers...

"1 x AC 10" plus "1 x LRM 10" and "2 x Medium laser"

has LRM's for range, AC 10 for med to close range, and medium lasers for short range.
A well rounded brawler.


As you often see with /stock/ brawlers, they often got 1 range weapon at best. this allows them to NOT be useless in a range fight and to pinch in to some extent. it also means to be more mobile then an LRM boat, Sniper, or a Juggernaut.

So you can go catch up to a Juggernaut assault mech or a Catapult most of the time.


You often have to use cover, AMS, ECM, and timing to use a Brawler right.

[Lily from animove]

You need mapknowledge to know where and how to approach safely. even if expensiv ein cbills and GXP, radar depriventionhelps you to avoid lrm's and prediction where you may go to.
And seismic helps you to not run aroudn a CQC corner meeting instantly 5 guys.

[Omi_]

The definition of a brawler is a bit different between TT and MWO.

In TT, it's a slower 'mech with lots of armour and a good amount of firepower, yet generally still faster and more lightly armed than a Juggernaut. In MWO, the term "Brawler" encompasses both of these roles, plus it usually also has be faster in order close into position and perform.

The other roles from TT seem to carry over pretty well, such as Sniper, Skirmisher and Missile Boat. Scout and Striker seem to be often rolled together.

[Virgil Greyson]

It takes some patience, and some games you might not even see real battle. The long range meta can be frustrating if you build a mech that shines under 250m.

[Elizander]

Void Angel, on 18 March 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

• Damage is like water; you can drown in the river, but getting a little wet won't hurt you - and brawling is the art of learning to swim.

That's too deep.

[thehwdge]

this right here is enough material to fill a small book, mwo community best community

[Vermaxx]

Drive a medium, try to look unimportant. Speed tweak is mandatory in most brawlers because they probably aren't using an XL engine. Hunchbacks work well for me. It also helps to wait a couple minutes before you try to get involved, at that point enemies are damaged and somewhat fixated on your teammates.

[YCSLiesmith]

thehwdge, on 18 March 2015 - 07:44 PM, said:

any tips for an aspiring kgc 000 player?
ive been told to ditch the ac20s and swap in gauss or boat ballistic but i'm not sure if thats the way to go on the crabs

first off, crabs are suboptimal (brawling is suboptimal, tragically. I like brawling) but if you're committed to brawling it's ok. i recommend the Atlas D-DC for 12 man group queue because there is nothing more fun than watching some poor ******* turn a blind corner and walk right into an atlas he didn't know existed at point blank range. it's like the intro to MW3 or that one section of MW5 teaser over and over and over.

https://youtu.be/orhOvbfyyJw?t=57s

that said, the way to brawl is to do it in a group. you can't possibly survive going off on your own, so stay close to guys who can murder any lights who try to get behind you. Your job as a brawler is to be a frightening presence that the enemy focuses on. you will trade damage and eventually die so that your bros can shoot the enemy without being a target. push with the group, stay with everyone, and when the enemy is sighted, start rolling forward.

don't use an XL engine in an assault: your side torsos should be blown out every match because you are torso twisting to catch attacks and maximize your survivability. don't use LRMs (obviously) machine guns, or AC-2s. they are weak. ac5 crab is ok, ac 20 crab can hit hard, gauss is the best ballistic in the game so gauss crab stronk af.