139 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

Ultimatum X, on 21 March 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

Here's what you do, if you really have the zeal for this.


Seek out and ask several top tier players from a variety of units like EmP, SJR, Lords, MS, 228th, etc.


Ask them all a very simple set of questions.


If two equally skilled teams in equally fair situations played, one choosing the best of the clans and one choosing the best of the IS, who would win?

If two equally skilled teams in equally fair situations played, one choosing the T2 clan mechs and the other choosing the T2 IS mechs, who would win?

If If two equally skilled teams in equally fair situations played, one allowed to choose have their team with T1 clan mechs & T2 clan mechs vs. the other team choosing half T1 IS mechs and half T2 IS mechs, who would win?



I have a feeling the first answer would be easy, and probably unanimous.

The second would likely take more thought and have some dissenting opinions, with a lot of qualifiers starting with "it depends".

The third would be the most interesting question, I'm not sure how it would go but I have a strong gut feeling.

But see, I do drop with them, and against them, and have for a while, and I see them consistently have random returns on their games.

Just like they did in Group Queue before.

However during Clan being Pay to Play earlier last year, you saw NO ONE ANYWHERE outside of a Clam unless they could help it. Now Aces and Lords are Thunderbolting their way over Clammers. Its fine. They say its fine.

Though the general consensus is that the clams have a slight edge, basically revolving around the Doomcrow heavy DDs, and the hilarious Myst Lynx rushes, and that the VAST majority of IS players are in trial mechs, pugging, without modules, no derp, in bad builds.

Skews things.

People who know, are arguing with each other over this, which is my point.

In more than a few threads you have two guys BOTH on Lords, saying Clan is OP and IS is OP.

[Aiden Skye]

I have to agree with the OP now. Its like the same group of audacious individuals going on the same rants over and over again.

[Alistair Winter]

While I completely agree with Adiuvo's point that Clan vs IS balance is not as big issue as TTK and the quirkening (i.e. power creep), let me just say one thing about this thread and this forum.

Almost all discussion that goes on here is extremely biased and unscientific. People are engaging in discussions like Aristotle and Plato trying to figure out if the world is shaped by forms or by ideas. There's almost zero use of actual numbers and systematic observation beyond the occassional post-match screenshot. Almost all arguments are built on personal experience and anecdotes.

In the past, I tried to make a few threads based on actual statistics, flawed as they might be. I stopped doing them after a while, because it's a lot of work. The one guy that really deserves a mention is Kiiyor, with this thread:
http://mwomercs.com/...ew-data-170714/

But the idea that IS and Clan mechs are balanced because there's a lot of discussion without people agreeing is.... well... with all due respect, Krafty, it's probably one of the worst arguments I've seen on this forum. I can only assume that you were saying it tongue-in-cheek because you're fed up with the discussions, which is fair enough.

TL;DR - There's a lot of discussion about whether or not vaccines cause autism. The fact that there's a lot of discussion and people can't seem to agree, doesn't mean both sides are equally credible.

[Ultimax]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:

Theyre bad.

Thats why it takes 4-5 Timberwolves to kill the last Locust or Raven that drops in CW when theyre standing mere feet from it.

Those pilots are bad. It is not the lasers.

[KraftySOT]

Ultimatum X, on 21 March 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

OK, I see why you think the things you do.


Clan lasers are outright superior to pretty much every option the IS has.

The IS has a few "competitive" quirked versions of lasers, but that is really few and far between.


Clan Dakka on DWFs is brutal, don't mistake what you see in solo PUG matches as it being used effectively.




I'm sure a lot of guys play it very well, but I'm not sure who plays it regularly - so if you want to see what a Gauss Vomit Dire Wolf is really capable of, you should watch some of TwinkyOverlord's streams (or if you are feeling really spunky, you could maybe challenge him and you play the 4N and he'll play the DWF)

Oh yeah im not saying the base stats for the weapons are bad. There are alot of bad mechs and alot of bad builds and alot of things IS drivers just shouldnt be in. When you compare the top to the top however, its pretty close, when you eliminate all the garbage.

And who cares about the garbage?

Ultimatum X, on 21 March 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

Those pilots are bad. It is not the lasers.

Lords? Really? 228?

Ask McGral, I consistently drop against him, and im always the last IS player standing, running around in my Locust for 45 seconds while their entire unit fires at me.

Sometimes I even get kills.

Its terrible. HSR is terrible, burn time is terrible, clam lasers are terrible unless youre walking straight at them or have horrid hitboxes.

[MoonUnitBeta]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

You gotta come back to Liao man.

Okay

[Scout Derek]

@KraftySOT Burn time is now countered for the Summoner.

[Adiuvo]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

But look, were getting into the revolving door that im talking about.

You can do this for ages. Balance isnt perfect, it isnt bad either. Are there mechs that are good? Yes. Are there mechs that are bad? Yes. But can you beat, with the right set of circumstances that youre in control of, every other mech in the game? Of course.

Direwhales arent good. Thats why you dont see alot of them in CW. Thats why you dont see MS or CI or Lords dropping direwolf decks.

Yet 4Ns are staples now because of their quirks. Despite the tonnage. No one is taking a Dire in CW to counter a 4N.

Because a Dire doesnt counter a 4N a 4N counters a Dire.

We can do this all month.

You can do this all day because, honestly, your position is coming from a lack of game understanding.

Let's take something really easy. Kit Fox vs. Firestarter. Obviously a Firestarter is better (if anyone disagrees just stop playing MWO, ty).

But wait! A 2x ERLL Kit Fox outranges by about 550m! If a Firestarter tries to approach you, you'll be able to alpha him twice and take off a leg! If you're missing that leg twice then you're just bad! If you were good a Kit Fox would always leg a Firestarter! A Kit Fox can apply their damage to many more mechs due to the range! The ECM on a Kit Fox can shield your allies and make it impossible for them to be LRM'd! If you want to go close you can bring streaks and kill any light mech really quickly!

All of this is technically true. It however, ignores a few things. Pressure, momentum, flexibility, tankiness, burst damage potential, and time. Things that can't really be quantified nor are easily explainable, but are ridiculously important.

[KraftySOT]

Alistair Winter, on 21 March 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

TL;DR - There's a lot of discussion about whether or not vaccines cause autism. The fact that there's a lot of discussion and people can't seem to agree, doesn't mean both sides are equally credible.

Scientifically speaking, there is no debate.

Compared to us its like, theres really no top tier players anymore complaining about balance. You didnt see the Lords when they were GreenBirds, whining about the 9S, because 4 ERPPC really wasnt that great unless the ENTIRE IS team was using it effectively. Then it dominated just like a Light Rush.

Which you ALSO dont see the top tier complain about, because its perfectly valid. When it happens to you, fine, when you do it to someone else, fine. When it happens to the top tier, they shut it down and laugh hysterically.

[Adiuvo]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

In more than a few threads you have two guys BOTH on Lords, saying Clan is OP and IS is OP.

I'm not really sure how to phrase this nicely, but HoL isn't the unit it once was. There are still good players there, but many of them aren't exactly people you should be taking advice from nor do they dominate as they once did. The unit that built up HoL's reputation to its peak no longer really exists.

If you're trying to look at 'top tier' discussion, better units to examine are EmP, SJR, and 228th's comp team.

Edited by Adiuvo, 21 March 2015 - 02:47 PM.

[KraftySOT]

Adiuvo, on 21 March 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

You can do this all day because, honestly, your position is coming from a lack of game understanding.

Let's take something really easy. Kit Fox vs. Firestarter. Obviously a Firestarter is better (if anyone disagrees just stop playing MWO, ty).

But wait! A 2x ERLL Kit Fox outranges by about 550m! If a Firestarter tries to approach you, you'll be able to alpha him twice and take off a leg! If you're missing that leg twice then you're just bad! If you were good a Kit Fox would always leg a Firestarter! A Kit Fox can apply their damage to many more mechs due to the range! The ECM on a Kit Fox can shield your allies and make it impossible for them to be LRM'd! If you want to go close you can bring streaks and kill any light mech really quickly!

All of this is technically true. It however, ignores a few things. Pressure, momentum, flexibility, tankiness, burst damage potential, and time. Things that can't really be quantified nor are easily explainable, but are ridiculously important.

But youre trying to compare them based on tonnage. Which is faulty. You dont come up against a Firestarter in a Kitfox unless you failed at a Kitfox pilot since its better than you.

Thats like engaging a Spitfire in a dogfight. Youre handing him the win there.

What you do, is kill that stupid Raven3L thats peekabooing since you have superior damage projection.

Bad situations are bad balance evidence.

Adiuvo, on 21 March 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

I'm not really sure how to phrase this nicely, but HoL isn't the unit it once was. There are still good players there, but many of them aren't exactly people you should be taking advice from nor do they dominate as they once did. The unit that built up HoL's reputation to its peak no longer really exists.

Thats true of ALL units. The game is shrinking unfortunately.

[Adiuvo]

Alistair Winter, on 21 March 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

Almost all discussion that goes on here is extremely biased and unscientific. People are engaging in discussions like Aristotle and Plato trying to figure out if the world is shaped by forms or by ideas. There's almost zero use of actual numbers and systematic observation beyond the occassional post-match screenshot. Almost all arguments are built on personal experience and anecdotes.

You're 100% right. It's like discussing balance in a moba. There are a few numbers available, but how do you quantify something like rotation capability? Some people understand that a champ like Bard or a god like Janus can be extremely useful due to this, but others don't have the game understanding to realize its importance.

[LordKnightFandragon]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

Well, alot of the posts are right, this is getting ridiculous.

You guys do realize when you put in 50,000 words on a topic on either side, using completely asymmetrical examples, and both sides make fairly convincing if not convoluted points, it means the balance is pretty good right?

Asymmetrical balance is a thing as old as flight sims. One guy has a Spitfire Ia. which can turn and burn, its got great energy retention, a tight turn radius, and low stall speed. Its very stable, it can dive well when it rolls over (it has no fuel injection, negative Gs starve the engine of fuel and oil). The other guy has a 109E4. It has a higher speed, better guns, better climb, better immediate dive (fuel injection).

On paper these two aircraft couldnt be more different, however, as has been shown in 30 years of flight simulators, the actual historical documentation of the real airframes, and massive amount of computations to figure it out, the Spitfire Ia, and 109E4, is the closest match up in history.

Yet that has never stopped a literal cubic ass load of people over the years, saying one or the other is OP. Theyve gone to extreme places and even resorted to real life crime over the debate. Theyve said its because only speed and altitude matter (the 109 is OP!) theyve said its because turn and burn (chasing tails to shoot from dead 6 oclock) is so easy for noobs and the spit is so good at that (The Spitdweeb stick stirred me im an experten Luftwaffle, the Spitfire is OP!!!).

Regardless of the the fact that sims just simply make a flight model that attempts to perfectly simulate the aircraft, and all the flight tests and combat reports show that the two craft are a perfect asymmetrical match for each other, that spawned dozens of more versions of each airframe expanding on the strengths that each side has, each attempting to finally put the nail in the other sides coffin with some stat that outclassed the other, people still debate this TO THIS DAY.

At the end of the day, in 30 years, no one has ever proven one or the other is over powering of the other. Over powering in and of itself means something is so clearly powerful that no one could argue about it. The simple fact that there is a debate at all, is proof that its not over powering.


Now return to your regularly scheduled whine fest.

Ill take the Spitfire MkIXC =D Had so much fun destroying stuff in that plane in IL2 =D

As for Clan vs IS in MWO.....idk, I feel alot more comfortable driving around in a clan mech then an IS one. Being able to pretty much get everything I want and more on a mech, whats not to love? Good engine size, max armor and all the guns I could want.

[Adiuvo]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

But youre trying to compare them based on tonnage. Which is faulty. You dont come up against a Firestarter in a Kitfox unless you failed at a Kitfox pilot since its better than you.

Thats like engaging a Spitfire in a dogfight. Youre handing him the win there.

What you do, is kill that stupid Raven3L thats peekabooing since you have superior damage projection.

Bad situations are bad balance evidence.

Thats true of ALL units. The game is shrinking unfortunately.

Why? Why don't you try to fight a Firestarter as a Kit Fox?

I think you're missing the point of that post.

And no, that's not true of all units nor is the game shrinking. Server load hitting peak indicates the opposite. What happened with HoL was that there was a split between the competitive members and the more casual over interunit policies, leading to the competitive group leaving and forming EmP with a few people from other units.

[KraftySOT]

People simply look at this problem if there is one, with target fixation.

They cant see the forest, they just see the individual trees.

Is a TW better than a 75 ton IS mech? Yes. Is a Dire better than a 35 ton IS Light? Nope. Is a Wubshee better than a TW? No. But if youre at 200m, then yes. Is a 4N better than a Doomcrow? Nope. Is it better than a Dire? Yup. Is a Myst Lynx better than an Awesome? Id wager yes. Id wager an Awesome is worse than just about everything else the game short of maybe Vindicators and the 5V.

There is no mech in this game that is equal to its counterpart in weight, more powerful than everything that weighs less, and not as powerful as everything that weighs more.

Its as asymmetrical as it can get. There are mechs that are better than one mech twice its size, but worse than a mech half its size. A doomcrow is better than an Atlas. But not better than Wubstarter.

[Ultimax]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

Lords? Really? 228?

I'm not sure what to tell you man.

I know that if I see guys like Jager, Heimdelight, TwinkyOverlord, Proton etc. and they are in something like a Timber Wolf or Dire Wolf (or anything really, but in those mechs it turns up a few notches) that I need to be extremely careful in something like a Firestarter (or anything really).


These guys are brutally accurate, their positioning is amazing.


No Raven would survive a few feet from 2 of these guys in Timber Wolves, much less 4 or 5 of them.

I'm not getting paid for advertising, I've seen them in puglandia (not super often, I'm not in their bracket at all) and I've watched their streams.



(And if you see Adiuvo, and you are in something slow...prepare your backside )

Edited by Ultimatum X, 21 March 2015 - 02:57 PM.

[Adiuvo]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:

Theyre bad.

Thats why it takes 4-5 Timberwolves to kill the last Locust or Raven that drops in CW when theyre standing mere feet from it.

HSR, Burn time, IS lights. Your clam lasers are situationally very good. When people walk their Thunderbolts into door ways and get artyd to high heaven, yes, alot of laser vomit is good.

When youre trying to kill that Wubstarter with them thats circling you? Theyre very, very bad.

No, the issue there is that the players are bad. Good lord.

[KraftySOT]

Adiuvo, on 21 March 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

Why? Why don't you try to fight a Firestarter as a Kit Fox?

I think you're missing the point of that post.

And no, that's not true of all units nor is the game shrinking. Server load hitting peak indicates the opposite. What happened with HoL was that there was a split between the competitive members and the more casual over interunit policies, leading to the competitive group leaving and forming EmP with a few people from other units.

That was quite a while ago, the peak thing. And yeah, that happened in 228, MS, WoL, Goons, HHOG, and a few others that ive noticed. On NGNG I was still logged in and listening to the same problem with the Aces.

People are leaving units and making new units, some have gone to leagues, some are waiting on Homeless Bills thing, others have left entirely. Some are simply haunting Reddits.

The game does, from my perspective appear to be shrinking. When CW first hit, I saw maybe, 30-40 Gatekeepers around, now its a tad slimmer than that.

[Adiuvo]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

Is a Dire better than a 35 ton IS Light? Nope.

I think this statement is pretty illuminating. You're not judging mechs by game impact, but but 1v1 capability. You aren't even looking at that correctly since the only way for you to reach the above conclusion is by sticking the Daishi in the worst situation possible (which isn't fighting a light 1v1, it's the light being on its backside already which is literally the only way for it to win that matchup).

Game impact is what matters for game balance, not 1v1 potential.

[KraftySOT]

Ultimatum X, on 21 March 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

I'm not sure what to tell you man.

I know that if I see guys like Jager, Heimdelight, TwinkyOverlord, Proton etc. and they are in something like a Timber Wolf or Dire Wolf (or anything really, but in those mechs it turns up a few notches) that I need to be extremely careful in something like a Firestarter (or anything really).


These guys are brutally accurate, their positioning is amazing.


No Raven would survive a few feet from 2 of these guys in Timber Wolves, much less 4 or 5 of them.

I'm not getting paid for advertising, I've seen them in puglandia (not super often, I'm not in their bracket at all) and I've watched their streams.



(And if you see Adiuvo, and you are in something slow...prepare your backside )

Yeah theyre fantastic, im not saying they arent. But Hitreg is what it is. When clearly 400+ damage is being fired at your locust and lulzing around picking off wounded Doomcrows at 160kph slowly getting eaten down to internals...you just kind of shake your head.

However IS wubmachines, turn all the poor slow clam mechs to ashe as soon as they get dropped on the maps where spawn camping is the thing to do.