35 replies to this topic

[Lynx7725]

stjobe, on 23 March 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

I'll go with no. For all the reasons other people have already posted, and this:

What does that module represent? Improved heat management software? Isolation on the thermal couplers? What?

To answer your question: It's a bad idea.

Oh I dunno. Experimental coolant maybe? Tradeoff: Explosive Heat Sinks. Think about how many times Betty announced a heat sink was destroyed or you see green smoke (did they removed that some time back?). Then consider if each time that happened, a small ammo explosion happened...

Rhaythe, on 23 March 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

I actually started a library of smurfy links of SHS mech builds I could use in the public queue so I could level up for Stock Mech Monday without killing the bank. It... wasn't a very large list. =o/

No surprise. My Commando ECM actually ran with SHS, because frankly, while I would benefit from DHS, I didn't need it per se. In terms of damage delivery, having SHS severely gimped mechs, to the point where when I was playing with that Level 1 Cataphract? I got really good at getting out of dodge... considering I didn't have an XL, that meant some really good running!

[Scout Derek]

So... if 9 Million is not enough, how about this?

18 Million C-bills

20,000 GEXP to Unlock

900 GEXP to unlock First level

1100 GEXP to unlock 2nd level

1300 GEXP to unlock 3rd level

1500 GEXP to unlock 4th Level

1700 GEXP to unlock 5th level

And there's a catch: If on Heat Generating map, +5% to cooling

If on a Negative Heat Generating Map, -5% to cooling

That there would balance the module right there, to be good on hot maps but bad on cold maps, and thus give the module a effective role in strategy.

Edited by Scout Derek, 23 March 2015 - 10:59 AM.

[Rhaythe]

Scout Derek, on 23 March 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

So... if 9 Million is not enough, how about this?

Sigh. Just no. It's a bad idea, no matter what price tag you put on it.

[FupDup]

Scout Derek, on 23 March 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

So... if 9 Million is not enough, how about this?

18 Million C-bills

20,000 GEXP to Unlock

900 GEXP to unlock First level

1100 GEXP to unlock 2nd level

1300 GEXP to unlock 3rd level

1500 GEXP to unlock 4th Level

1700 GEXP to unlock 5th level

Costs paid outside of combat can't be used to balance effectiveness during combat.

Scout Derek, on 23 March 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

And there's a catch: If on Heat Generating map, +5% to cooling

If on a Negative Heat Generating Map, -5% to cooling

That there would balance the module right there, to be good on hot maps but bad on cold maps, and thus give the module a effective role in strategy.

With cold maps already being fairly merciful, that 5% hit in snowy places would easily be worth being 5% more efficient on maps like Mordor and Caustic.


Ultimately, there is no truly balanced or good way to make heat-efficiency modules with the current game's setup. Right now, PGI/Paul uses heat as the primary damage limiter. They're terrified of mechs that are heat efficient, because "heat efficient builds would be highly exploited" in the words of Paul Inouye.

So, they designed their heat system so that almost any possible build you can think of will run somewhat hot. It's nearly unavoidable unless you do something like boat Gauss or AC/5. They want nearly everything to run hot, because their game can't handle mechs that can sustain their damage output over time.

This quote right here is the reason that we can't have nice things:

Paul, in ATD #43 said:

Answer from Paul: There are no current plans to change the heat threshold towards TT values. Are we hard set against it? No, just at the moment there’s no need to do this.

Playing with a higher rate of cooling makes a lot more builds become heat neutral. A lot of heat neutral builds results in mid-range damage applied at a constant rate over time. This mechanism would be highly exploited by those with knowledge of building efficient heat neutral Mechs.

[Lynx7725]

FupDup, on 23 March 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

So, they designed their heat system so that almost any possible build you can think of will run somewhat hot. It's nearly unavoidable unless you do something like boat Gauss or AC/5. They want nearly everything to run hot, because their game can't handle mechs that can sustain their damage output over time.

Interesting thought. I can think of one other weapon system that can sustain damage output over time without overheating too badly though.

[Koniving]

Lynx7725, on 23 March 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Depends. In lore, some battlemech WANT heat -- Triple Strength Myomer works only at a certain heat range. Since TSM is usually about physical attacks, that didn't make the jump (yet) to MWO. If and when it does, a heat generation module can be useful.

Otherwise... not really.

I'm assuming the OP means heat generation reduction modules.

Aka a module to install that reduces energy heat by 10%, etc. Or if Russ does it, it'll be a heat generation reduction module that gives 50% reductions if you boat ER PPCs, but otherwise will give you 10% reductions in heat.

[FupDup]

Lynx7725, on 23 March 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

Interesting thought. I can think of one other weapon system that can sustain damage output over time without overheating too badly though.

Basically ballistics other than boated AC/20 or AC/2.

[Koniving]

Or 2.5% if you're a Clanner.

(Which small % changes are a great thing -- if that applies to everyone from the start and gradually works one way or the other, but 2.5% against 50% is a load of crap).

[Rhaythe]

Koniving, on 23 March 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

I'm assuming the OP means heat generation reduction modules.

That, or a "something that will manage my heat for me" module. Hopefully its benefits will stack with my "push button to win" module.

[Lynx7725]

FupDup, on 23 March 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

Basically ballistics other than boated AC/20 or AC/2.

Nope. LRMs.

Which also probably contributes to why it is so hated -- because it's always somewhere in the air.

[FupDup]

Lynx7725, on 23 March 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Nope. LRMs.

Which also probably contributes to why it is so hated -- because it's always somewhere in the air.

I suppose it depends on how many of them you have... They're not uber hot by any means, but their heat is usually at least noticeable, especially when also using other guns with them.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 23 March 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

This quote right here is the reason that we can't have nice things:

Quote

Answer from Paul: There are no current plans to change the heat threshold towards TT values. Are we hard set against it? No, just at the moment there’s no need to do this.

Playing with a higher rate of cooling makes a lot more builds become heat neutral. A lot of heat neutral builds results in mid-range damage applied at a constant rate over time. This mechanism would be highly exploited by those with knowledge of building efficient heat neutral Mechs.

I'm still amused and saddened by the ignorance in Paul's statement.

Lets address issue 1.
We fire more than once every 10 seconds. Already heat neutrality is almost impossible.

Issue 2.
This is the capabilities of a 10 DHS mech in Tabletop with Heatsink Taxing (gives heatsinks their own threshold as MWO did).
Mech Threshold: 30. Generate 30 heat at any point in time, uncooled, and you shutdown assuming the ammo hasn't already exploded or you died.

Heatsink Cooling: 2.0/sec or maximum of 20 heat removed in a 10 second period of time.

Heatsink Threshold: Maximum amount of heat that can be tolerated and cooled within 10 seconds before the risk of melting a heatsink will occur: 22 units in 10 seconds. Max heat before losing a heatsink is guaranteed? 27. At any time in 10 whole seconds, generate 27 heat you will be guaranteed to melt a heatsink. This includes the heat you cooled in that same 10 second period.

Even without the Heatsink threshold, which in TT is separate of Mech Threshold, Paul's claims of faster cooling and exploits are unfounded. See below.

MWO's current system.
10 DHS for a 100 rated engine with All Elites.
Heat Threshold : 55.68
Cooling Rate : 1.89 heat/sec

10 DHS for a 250 rated engine with No Skills
Heat Threshold : 50
Cooling Rate : 2.00 heat/sec
10 DHS for a 250 rated engine with elites.
Heat Threshold : 60
Cooling Rate : 2.30 heat/sec

"But aren't DHS 1.4"? Only those you manually add, hence the huge difference in 100 engine and 250 engine 10 DHS.
"So if I had more than 10, I get a reduction?"
Specifically you can have 16 DHS and still have superior to Tabletop cooling, provided your mech is elited.

Now, what would allow heat neutrality?
Our current system would.
The Tabletop system would not, unless you fired one shot every 10 seconds.
"But wait, if we give ourselves TT cooling and don't touch the skills, I'd get exactly the same cooling as I do now for the 250 engine, but with any engine!" Exactly.
Though lets be honest. A faster cooling skill at 15% was really, really stupid. Remove it, and we remove the "exploit". Which lets be honest, there isn't much of one here.

Paul makes my head hurt. His comprehension levels are...quite lacking.

Lynx7725, on 23 March 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Nope. Chuck Testa.

I had to.

Edited by Koniving, 23 March 2015 - 11:29 AM.

[cSand]

rather than weapon modules they should have had several brands of weapons

IE

BRAND 1 mlas: more range, more heat, more burn time
BRAND 2 mlas: less range, less heat, less burn time
BRAND 3 mlas: normal range, normal heat, normal burn time

or w/e you want the differences to be

Edited by cSand, 23 March 2015 - 11:26 AM.

[Lynx7725]

FupDup, on 23 March 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

I suppose it depends on how many of them you have... They're not uber hot by any means, but their heat is usually at least noticeable, especially when also using other guns with them.

They're not heat neutral by any means, but they've been least hit IMO by the heat nerf bat. A good LRM Spec can keep juggling missiles in the air for a comparatively longer time before shutdown, usually longer than the enemy can bear.

But yeah, I was there in the "heat neutral" days. There were some builds that was hideously effective when heat neutral was somewhat possible. The combination of various changes broke that "cartel" up, making everything else more viable -- or everything unviable, depending on your perspective. Adding on the new norm of energy boat releases, the heat-neutral build problem is largely not there any more. I'm not keen on the way it was implemented, but it was some sort of a solution to that problem.

[Koniving]

cSand, on 23 March 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

rather than weapon modules they should have had several brands of weapons

IE

BRAND 1 mlas: more range, more heat, more burn time
BRAND 2 mlas: less range, less heat, less burn time
BRAND 3 mlas: normal range, normal heat, normal burn time

or w/e you want the differences to be

I've had similar ideas in the past. Even have a list of ACs, lasers, and three PPC variations based on stuff I read in the novels.
Although what I found is that these always assume the weapons meet the classifications: Same range, same total damage, same heat, same weight, same crits.

Still, there's a big difference in a Lord's Light PPC from the Kinslaughter PPC if we use the post-1993 PPC logic. Under the assumption that both can only be fired once in 10 seconds....

The Kinslaughter is a PPC variant by Krupp-Stellar Technologies, Inc. that is known for a very short charge time. Its most noteworthy issue is that it's obscenely hot and known for causing the pilot to pass out. (Clearly you wouldn't be boating this thing). Based on 30 threshold and not taking into account heatsink taxing rules:

Spoiler

A real quick demonstration. Lets say it has a 0.20 second charge up. It generates 2 heat during the charge up. This example mech has 10 SHS.
0 seconds. Pilot clicks fire. Charge begins.
0.2 seconds. 2 heat generated. 0.02 heat cooled. 1.98 heat remains. 6.6% threshold. (PPC fired. + 8 heat. = 9.98 heat = 33.266666666667% of threshold).
1 second, (from 0.2 seconds) 0.98 heat cooled. 9 heat remaining.
2 seconds. 1 heat cooled. 8 heat remaining.26.666666666667%
5 seconds (3 heat cooled over the 3 seconds leading to here). 5 heat remaining. 16.67% heat.
etc.

Note that 10 heat is 33.33(repeating)% or 1/3rd of Mech Threshold without cooling.

Now, the Lord's Light is a specific PPC variant by Alshain Weapons that takes 3 seconds to charge up. Each second during charge-up it generates 1 heat.
This thing wouldn't be very meta or brawler friendly due to its 3 second charge time, but sharp shooters would love this. In addition to the lower heat spike, you could 'release' prematurely for a 'degraded' blast.

Spoiler

It looks like this. This is for a 10 single heatsink mech.
0 seconds. Pilot clicks fire. Charge begins.
1 second. 1 heat is generated. 1 heat is cooled. 0 heat.
2 seconds. 1 heat is generated. 1 heat is cooled. 0 heat.
3 seconds. 1 heat is generated. 1 heat is cooled. 0 heat. PPC has finished charging, FIRES! Spike of 7 heat. (23.33% heat; compare to 'instant fire' PPC heat of 33.33% threshold in 30 threshold.).
4 seconds. 1 heat is cooled. 6 heat. 20% threshold.
5 seconds. 1 heat is cooled. 5 heat. 16.67% threshold.
Etc. until cold.
Note: since this example was from tabletop with a lore-based Lord's Light PPC, that's pretty sweet.

A note from when I wrote that:

Quote

For an obvious reason, the lore and such of these PPCs are associated with a damage/heat rating for 10 seconds and thus the long charge up times are perfectly acceptable there. In MWO the "time" index most weapons follow is 4 seconds. 3 second charge up out of 10 seconds in tabletop is 1.2 seconds out of 4 seconds for MWO. It's kinda harsh, but we're not likely to see weapon variants. We will more likely see a one-size fit all charge.

As you can imagine, the significant reduction in the heat spike alone makes Lord's Light PPC boatable where the Kinslaughter is not boating friendly, even though both have exactly the same total heat generation, range, damage, weight, slots, etc. The Kinslaughter is more likely to be a brawling or pot-shooter's favorite.

Interesting isn't it? Well I find it interesting at least. They're exactly the same and would function identically in tabletop, but in real time it'd make such a huge difference.

[Deathlike]

Please don't suggest honestly bad ideas.

This is akin to legitimizing the ML heat bump from 3 to 4 from way back when.