17 replies to this topic

[D A T A]

this is what happens when 2 mechs face each other.

PLEASE, ALL PEOPLE THAT HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT OR WHAT PRO BUILDS TO USE ON THESE MECHS, PLEASE
PLEASE
DO NOT ANSWER AT ALL.

I WOULD BE GLAD TO DEMONSTRATE THIS IN 1VS1 TO WHOEVER WANTS,EVEN SOME MWO DEVS IF IT IS NEEDED.

summoner vs quickdraw , dragon, jager, cataphract, grasshopper, thunderbolt, catapult , wolverine, hunchback, shadowhawk, blackjack, centurion, griffin, enforcer

summoner loser
summoner is worse than each single one of those is mechs, even medium mechs


hellbringer vs dragon, jager, cataphract, thunderbolt, wolverine
hellbringer loser

maddog vs everything
(loses against everything that can not face with 6srm6+5smallasers)

nova vs all IS mediums,
loses against everything excpt vindicator

ice ferret,vs all is mediums and lights
loses against all IS mediums, also loses against Jenner, firestarter, panther, raven

gargoyle vs all IS assaults
gargoyle loses against all IS assaults, also loses against thunderbolt, cataphract, jagermech, dragon and maybe even quickdraw and wolverine

warhawk vs all IS assaults
warhawk loses against every IS assault

adder, kit fox, mist Lynx, junk scrap

add that you can not bring direwolf in CW because it is just too slow when trying to peek ( you would just take 9999999 largelasers on the side torso and goodbye), and you realise that CW for canners is just JUNK

TIME TO REALLY BUFF CLAN WEAPONS AND GIVE SOME SERIOUS 10-15% QUIRKS ON PRO PLAYER WEAPONS ON ALL THOSE JUNK MECHS ABOVE, because the quirks you have given are just non existent, and also the actual quirks buff the wrong weapons.

example: only way in which ice ferret can be competitive is 5cerml, buff 10% heatgen and range on cerml for ice ferret

only way for summoner to be competitive is erppc+gauss, buff 50% speed on erppc so it can match with gauss and buff cooldown on both by 10%

Edited by IL MECHWARRIOR, 25 March 2015 - 01:58 AM.

[Idealsuspect]

.. this topic isnt in right place.

Maybe move it from PATCH FEEDBACK 1.3.380 >>>>> IL MECHWARRIOR's Topics " plz buff what i use "
( half joke coze this time you aren't complety wrong thoses clans mech aren't balanced not because of clan weapons stats but cause they can't carry many weapons as IS mechs or because of some fixed equipements, JJs ( summoner ), even theirs engine, are just bad in stock version better example >>> bAdder slower than a heavy stormcrown ))


No words about timber wolf, stormcrow, kit fox also why you would buff clan weapons....

Problem about ice ferret, summoner, adder gargoyle and warhawk they can't carry lots of weapons .... 4 or 5 ( all is lights can carry 4 - 6 weapons minimal ) ... and maybe 7 for warhawk when dire can carry 12 easy also you can't build competitive builds with thoses mechs...

Now pgi have to choose >>> they have to give some good quirks for thoses mech or they have rebuild amount of
carriageable weapons for thoses mech ( i am for 2nd solution in first place maybe some mechs will need quirks even after that like bAdder or summoner )



And anyway this topic is a false good idea .. MWO isn't a FPS game designed for 1VS1 its a teamwork game and you can't equilibrate like 60 mechs for 1VS1 it's only impossible.


A good player will win against a bad player ( add to bad skill >> they build bad loadout ^^ ) .
And a good premade will win against basic bunch of pugs ( because half of them will be newbies/casuals well this game is unfriendly with new players it's a fact specialy if they aren't true battlemech fans .. )


If you want play some real fair 1VS1 play both with same mech and exactly same loadout or better stock mechs vs stock mech...
and don't forgot to play with same ping/latency, same mouse too ( for example my 6year old mouse suck for long range have to switch with another one witch suck in mid range ^^ ) life isn't fair MWO too...

Edited by Idealsuspect, 25 March 2015 - 04:26 AM.

[Ben Delat]

The repeated Headshots i received from IlMechwarrior seem to contradict everything he has said above.
Especially in regard to Clan Weapon Buffs.

I can also understand why he wants the ER PPC as fast as the Gauss in his summoner.
That way both shots cann arrive simultanously in my cockpit. Totally understandable........

[Lily from animove]

but but but, scr, tbr, and c-xl op, look the statistics, cklans win moar, so we need moar clannerfs.


And not this damn event, which will make everyone go tryhard mode, going to screw the statistics even more, because the IS pilots still can't handle their mechs and the data will be screwed by people going to scr and tbrs in firts place.

make a dman new chassis challange please.

[Karl Streiger]

ehm no Lilly - even the "Clan OP Loop Mechs" wont stand a good chance in a fight 1 on 1 vs a IS Mech - because 1 on 1 means you fight on my conditions

but as we concluded yesterday neither 1 on 1 nor skill should be considered when balancing stuff - because the good beat the bad and 2 beat 1.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 27 March 2015 - 03:08 AM.

[Kenyon Burguess]

IL MECHWARRIOR, on 25 March 2015 - 01:57 AM, said:

this is what happens when 2 mechs face each other.

PLEASE, ALL PEOPLE THAT HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT OR WHAT PRO BUILDS TO USE ON THESE MECHS, PLEASE
PLEASE
DO NOT ANSWER AT ALL.

I WOULD BE GLAD TO DEMONSTRATE THIS IN 1VS1 TO WHOEVER WANTS,EVEN SOME MWO DEVS IF IT IS NEEDED.

summoner vs quickdraw , dragon, jager, cataphract, grasshopper, thunderbolt, catapult , wolverine, hunchback, shadowhawk, blackjack, centurion, griffin, enforcer

summoner loser
summoner is worse than each single one of those is mechs, even medium mechs


hellbringer vs dragon, jager, cataphract, thunderbolt, wolverine
hellbringer loser

maddog vs everything
(loses against everything that can not face with 6srm6+5smallasers)

nova vs all IS mediums,
loses against everything excpt vindicator

ice ferret,vs all is mediums and lights
loses against all IS mediums, also loses against Jenner, firestarter, panther, raven

gargoyle vs all IS assaults
gargoyle loses against all IS assaults, also loses against thunderbolt, cataphract, jagermech, dragon and maybe even quickdraw and wolverine

warhawk vs all IS assaults
warhawk loses against every IS assault

adder, kit fox, mist Lynx, junk scrap

add that you can not bring direwolf in CW because it is just too slow when trying to peek ( you would just take 9999999 largelasers on the side torso and goodbye), and you realise that CW for canners is just JUNK

TIME TO REALLY BUFF CLAN WEAPONS AND GIVE SOME SERIOUS 10-15% QUIRKS ON PRO PLAYER WEAPONS ON ALL THOSE JUNK MECHS ABOVE, because the quirks you have given are just non existent, and also the actual quirks buff the wrong weapons.

example: only way in which ice ferret can be competitive is 5cerml, buff 10% heatgen and range on cerml for ice ferret

only way for summoner to be competitive is erppc+gauss, buff 50% speed on erppc so it can match with gauss and buff cooldown on both by 10%

how bad are you at this game? please make a video of that..

[Lily from animove]

Karl Streiger, on 27 March 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

ehm no Lilly - even the "Clan OP Loop Mechs" wont stand a good chance in a fight 1 on 1 vs a IS Mech - because 1 on 1 means you fight on my conditions

but as we concluded yesterday neither 1 on 1 nor skill should be considered when balancing stuff - because the good beat the bad and 2 beat 1.

yes but it looks like russ is balancing around win/loss quota, and this does not take pilot skill into accoutn as well, but pilot skill is affecting this ratio. If we had a WoW like setting where one ca only be Horde or Allienc,e then yes would mak sense. But when IS gets ovequirked good pilots may switch the tables and suddnely the 62:38 may suddenly be a 25:75.
Thats is actually risky, and not good because chassis are out of equastion, most will come with DEF and SCR and that stuff as they usually do when challanges are up. We need mech balance, otherwise steam reviews will also take this into account, and MWO has still hitreg issues and a bad new palyer experience and too many negatove reviews of MWO will prevent steam players from joining a game.

[Lily from animove]

Geist Null, on 27 March 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

how bad are you at this game? please make a video of that..

he was very bad


actually, it was fun to see that even back then the toppilots between IS and Clanners do not even differ much. Which proofes that balance was already there in these days. at leats if you eliminate skill because the toppilots are rather close in skill.

[sycocys]

Just a matter of curiosity but how were you testing that?

I don't disagree that IS mechs outclass clan mechs in a brawl, especially 1v1.

But when you get clan pilots that keep the attack at range/out of range for many IS mechs to truly be effective AND understand that hitting alpha every shot they take simply isn't effective (aka good clan pilots), things tend to balance out quite a bit more from my experience.

In CW the maps are designed in such a way that the Clan mechs start with a decided advantage of that range combined with time to keep cool. On standard drops the maps are designed with more brawling in mind which obviously puts the clans at more of a disadvantage initially.

[The Great Unwashed]

There really no longer exists such a thing as clans outranging IS; the quirks took care of that.

Stalker 4N: LL range +20%,
Thunderbolt 5S: LL range +25%
etcetera.

Clans would need a targeting computer Mk XV weighing 15 tons for the same bonus.

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 27 March 2015 - 06:36 AM.

[Nik Reaper]

IMO I don't see why we expect balance if IS still doesn't have ERML ... this single timeline restricted piece of equipement would bring balance much closer and IS light engine would push IS over clans.

As it is now IS is on par with clans when you consider the few extra tons IS can bring vs clans, so that they can take the few specialist mechs that the quirkening has made, ei. stalkers, quickdraws and others with extra energy range , wich made CW a very restricted place of the mechs you can bring.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 27 March 2015 - 06:33 AM.

[Idealsuspect]

Lily from animove, on 27 March 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

yes but it looks like russ is balancing around win/loss quota, and this does not take pilot skill into accoutn as well, but pilot skill is affecting this ratio. If we had a WoW like setting where one ca only be Horde or Allienc,e then yes would mak sense. But when IS gets ovequirked good pilots may switch the tables and suddnely the 62:38 may suddenly be a 25:75.
Thats is actually risky, and not good because chassis are out of equastion, most will come with DEF and SCR and that stuff as they usually do when challanges are up. We need mech balance, otherwise steam reviews will also take this into account, and MWO has still hitreg issues and a bad new palyer experience and too many negatove reviews of MWO will prevent steam players from joining a game.

Score formula: (Kills × 10) + (Kill Assist × 20) + ((Damage Done - Team Damage) ÷ 15) + (Wins × 20)

This kind of equation will never determinate if someone is good or not...

Kill assist count twice than kill also any lrms boat with 1000 damage ( quite easy ) 12 assist also in winner team will get first place ^^

Yea killing alone 2 guys is reward by 20 point as someone hit 1 point damage someone who will be destroy .. also where are skills ?.

[sycocys]

The Great Unwashed, on 27 March 2015 - 06:31 AM, said:

There really no longer exists such a thing as clans outranging IS; the quirks took care of that.

Stalker 4N: LL range +20%,
Thunderbolt 5S: LL range +25%
etcetera.

Clans would need a targeting computer Mk XV weighing 15 tons for the same bonus.

I agree if you are only taking into account the mechs with the large range quirks, but this was considering every mech available and most of them a easily out ranged by clan mechs.

If you do all of your testing in a 1v1 brawl only scenario of course the mechs that are at their advantage are going to beat out the mechs that should be doing the brunt of their damage from a distance first and where they can control the approach lanes.

That's why I'm asking how these scenarios were set up. If you set it up to intentionally disregard the strengths of one side your are designing the result right from the start.

[The Great Unwashed]

sycocys, on 27 March 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

I agree if you are only taking into account the mechs with the large range quirks, but this was considering every mech available and most of them a easily out ranged by clan mechs.

Oh sure, but those are not the mechs that people bring to CW... I used to do fine sitting back in my 4ERLL HBR doing 3k damage but that time has passed... But there is variation: sometimes IS brings a dropshipload of tiny lights bringing other problems to the clans in CW If IS mechs outbrawl most clan mechs: that is actually not so bad and would add a bit to the feel of difference between Clan and IS.

[Voivode]

Translation: "Oh noes! That IS mech killed me! I was promised that wouldn't happen!"

[sycocys]

Yeah I wasn't discussing in terms of CW only, because the meta builds are indeed about all you see there outside of pug drops. About CW though those huge range quirks wouldn't even be needed if the maps were designed to give teams more options tactically, when the primary focus of the mode is long range combat channeling one blob into another, I just don't think you'll ever really find any semblance of balance.

From my experience crossing over into the standard drops though where the maps are designed to open more options up, most of the mechs seem far more balanced when played to their strengths.

[Lily from animove]

Idealsuspect, on 27 March 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

Score formula: (Kills × 10) + (Kill Assist × 20) + ((Damage Done - Team Damage) ÷ 15) + (Wins × 20)

This kind of equation will never determinate if someone is good or not...

Kill assist count twice than kill also any lrms boat with 1000 damage ( quite easy ) 12 assist also in winner team will get first place ^^

Yea killing alone 2 guys is reward by 20 point as someone hit 1 point damage someone who will be destroy .. also where are skills ?.

that does not care, all the mechs were in the same pool, with the same rules, and so all competed on the same level, and all players were in the same ruleset wiht the ability to take the mechs most suited to achieve this.

And at the end of this equation damage doen was one of the most deciding factor, and here clanners and IS hardly differed.
So when clanners were Op, the results would have been visually very different.

Take the chassis challange, again a formula, same rules for all chassis, and yet extremely different results, you see the trashy mechs on IS and clanside and you see the good mechs on clanside and IS side.

Bith tournament showed that mechs were the issues for imbalance, not the faction. Because when top pilots used top mechs under the same conditions, results equalised, But when top pilos under the same conditions used different chassis, big differences appeared.

I doubt that the challange that were seperated into classe,s that any of the IS medium class on this scoreboard was a vindicator. And I doubt that any of the 10 leaders in the Clansegment was a Nova.


And for CW, the issue is still that the IS has not as much top pilots as the Clanners, and so they lose more often. Even if they use the good mechs. And this is supported by what I see when playing CW. overquirked TDR spambolts failed to duells in my 2 PPC adder, simply because they had bad aim and movement behavior.

The mechs are equal, and honestly IS mechs now after all quirks even better, the population skill is not. But beware the moment the clanplayers swap sides, then balance gets lost horrible when the good pilots grab the good mechs.

sycocys, on 27 March 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

Yeah I wasn't discussing in terms of CW only, because the meta builds are indeed about all you see there outside of pug drops. About CW though those huge range quirks wouldn't even be needed if the maps were designed to give teams more options tactically, when the primary focus of the mode is long range combat channeling one blob into another, I just don't think you'll ever really find any semblance of balance.

From my experience crossing over into the standard drops though where the maps are designed to open more options up, most of the mechs seem far more balanced when played to their strengths.

Every map has enough areas to approach safely within cover. Thse range quirks were needed to support pilots trying to snipe vs clanners, which they should never have started trying to. So those quirks were a placeeboo fix to statsify a mass of people claiming "clans OP" by using a tactic that was always means to fail vs clanners due to range differences
Is mechs are more heat efficient, even before the quirkening they were. And this could have been used, but poeple didn't.

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 March 2015 - 09:02 AM.

[Idealsuspect]

Lily from animove, on 27 March 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

I wasn't talking about clan or IS but about your link ^^

Check my first post about clan/IS....

Edit : ok sorry when i quote you, i quote you with a previous post ... sorry my bad i would respond to this >>>>

Lily from animove, on 27 March 2015 - 05:58 AM, said:

he was very bad

^^

Edited by Idealsuspect, 27 March 2015 - 09:50 AM.