197 replies to this topic

[Burktross]

Seph MacLeod, on 31 March 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

Womp? ..as in.. Womp Rats? Wompa? I dun seem to catch what you are saying.

Not womp as in womp rats.
There's just no other way to express it.
Womp.

[Adamski]

Andi Nagasia, on 31 March 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

you are actually losing 70% heat efficiency, as you are losing half your DSH(50%) and 20% of your Engine(70%total)

So at what grade did you start getting failed ahead in mathematics? Must have been before they started teaching fractions:

WHK with 28 DHS losing a side torso loses 6 in the arm/torso, then another 2.6 from the engine for a total of 8.6 DHS which is only 31% of its total heatsinks.

TBR with 24 DHS losing non-JJ set to maximize on heatsink loss, loses 5 DHS then another 3 from the engine for a total of 8 DHS which is 33% of its total heatsinks.

KFX with 15 DHS losing a side torso loses 3 in the side torso and 1.4 in its engine for a total of 4.4 DHS which is 29%.

70% is such a pile of horrible math an pure idiocy I couldn't let it stand.

[Andi Nagasia]

Adamski, on 31 March 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

So at what grade did you start getting failed ahead in mathematics? Must have been before they started teaching fractions:

WHK with 28 DHS losing a side torso loses 6 in the arm/torso, then another 2.6 from the engine for a total of 8.6 DHS which is only 31% of its total heatsinks.

TBR with 24 DHS losing non-JJ set to maximize on heatsink loss, loses 5 DHS then another 3 from the engine for a total of 8 DHS which is 33% of its total heatsinks.

KFX with 15 DHS losing a side torso loses 3 in the side torso and 1.4 in its engine for a total of 4.4 DHS which is 29%.

70% is such a pile of horrible math an pure idiocy I couldn't let it stand.

ok
1) there is no call for Insults,
2) assuming a Clan-mech has a balanced build(most can and do run mirrored builds),
.......losing an ST(you lose the Arm too) most builds will lose 50%ish of their DHS,
3) to my knowledge when you lose a ST in a Clan you lose 20%ish of your Engines DHS,

my math is that 50% + 20% = 70%, my math isnt broken, and it is logical,
if im missing something please tell me but there is no need to insult when its not called for,

[Adamski]

Andi Nagasia, on 31 March 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

ok
1) there is no call for Insults,
2) assuming a Clan-mech has a balanced build(most can and do run mirrored builds),
.......losing an ST(you lose the Arm too) most builds will lose 50%ish of their DHS,
3) to my knowledge when you lose a ST in a Clan you lose 20%ish of your Engines DHS,

my math is that 50% + 20% = 70%, my math isnt broken, and it is logical,
if im missing something please tell me but there is no need to insult when its not called for,

Sweet diety, grant me strength. Your free math tutor lesson for the day:

IF you hold 100% of your DHS in your engine, THEN the 20% Engine loss EQUALS 20% of your DHS.

IF you hold 100% of your DHS OUT of your engine,THEN losing 50% of your mech EQUALS 50% of you DHS.

BUT, 1 ST and 1 ARM is only 2 components out of 8 (7 if you ignore the head/cockpit)

THEREFORE you need to calculate the fraction of DHS OUT of the engine and the fraction IN the engine, before you can calculate how many are lost.

OR if that is too difficult, take off your shoes and socks, pull up the mechlab builder, and start counting. (or just read the examples I provided in my previous post).

[Stealth Fox]

Adamski, on 31 March 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

Sweet diety, grant me strength.

Sorry, Apophis called and said "Math? Lol Idunu, I'm a fkn Satan Snake"

I think what my fellow Smokey J is trying to say.. (and I may get this wrong, I will be the FIRST to tell you I suck at math) is that when you lose the side Torso you also loose those engine heat sinks that actually count as double.. Thus being more important than the ones in the arm and torso.

Not gonna question your numbers cause, heck, I dun know.. But that mi~ight of been what he was getting at.

[Mcgral18]

Adamski, on 31 March 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

So at what grade did you start getting failed ahead in mathematics? Must have been before they started teaching fractions:

WHK with 28 DHS losing a side torso loses 6 in the arm/torso, then another 2.6 from the engine for a total of 8.6 DHS which is only 31% of its total heatsinks.

TBR with 24 DHS losing non-JJ set to maximize on heatsink loss, loses 5 DHS then another 3 from the engine for a total of 8 DHS which is 33% of its total heatsinks.

KFX with 15 DHS losing a side torso loses 3 in the side torso and 1.4 in its engine for a total of 4.4 DHS which is 29%.

70% is such a pile of horrible math an pure idiocy I couldn't let it stand.

Has PGI ever clarified what they meant by

Quote

With this in mind, we have decided to implement a rule that the destruction of a side torso in a Clan 'Mech will result in a loss of 20% of the engines internal heat sink capacity.

http://mwomercs.com/...tober-road-map/

Meaning TrueDubs or the heatsinks housed in the engine? His example states the Timby with 15...10 of which are TrueDubs and 5 of which are PoorDubs.

Or does he just mean a blanket 20%. He also states capacity, does it also effect dissipation? It certainly feels like it does.

Anyhow, 20% on the Timby's 15 is
20+(5*1.4)
=27
*1.2
=32.4
*.8
=25.92

Shall we assume a 24 DHS build as such:
TBR-C

Which means it loses 4+20%

Heat cap of 69.6 before 20% Mastery bonus

Removal of 4 DHS brings it to 64
Removal of 20% engine stuff:
21.6+30+(5*1.4)
=58.6

58.6/69.6
=84%, or a 16% nerf.

I don't really want to Math with the 20% elite bonus, since there are lots of decimals.

[Mcgral18]

Something like the PeaceDove would lose 6 regardless of ST
WHK-PRIME

Base heat cap of
18*1.4+20+30
=75.2 20% bonus brings that to 90.24

Removal of the ST brings it down the 6 external, and 20% from the CT
(20+(1.4*3)*.8)+6*1.4+50
=24.2+8.4+30
=62.6 20% bonus brings it to 75.12 (depending how PGI Maths, how the buffed heatsinks react when mastered. I'm assuming after the fact)

62.6/75.2
=83.2 A 16.8% nerf

Or, maybe,
75.12/90.24
=83.2 which is the same ~17% nerf.

Myth Lynx next.

[Adamski]

Let me know if you ever get close to the 70% he was hyperventilating about, hell, even 60%, or 50%, or 40%. Anything less than that and it really doesn't matter because the mech is losing around half its armament.

[Mcgral18]

MLX-PRIME
13 DHS, 7 TrueDubs, 6 PoorDubs. Equal amount on both sides.

Base heat cap of:
14+30+(6*1.4)
=52.4 20% bonus is 62.88, as opposed to a 250 mech who would have 54.2 and 65.04

Losing an ST makes it have
30+(14*.8)+(3*1.4)
=45.4 20% bonus is 54.48 (neutralising the ST nerf for Basic VS Mastered)

~14% nerf for the Myth Lynx.

[Mcgral18]

Adamski, on 31 March 2015 - 05:38 PM, said:

Let me know if you ever get close to the 70% he was hyperventilating about, hell, even 60%, or 50%, or 40%. Anything less than that and it really doesn't matter because the mech is losing around half its armament.

One would think Mr Gargles is the worst hit, with 16 DHS inside.

Base heat cap of 58.4
Nerf brings it to 46.72

20%.....as one would expect. Without any externals, which would decrease the nerf, unless they are all on the shield side.

GAR-For the glory of satan?

Base cap of 69.6

With that side removed, it would act as above, with 16 nerfed 20%
46.72/69.6
=67%


So, 33% is one of the highest you can get. Whale might get a few more%, but it also has fewer engine DHS.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Adamski,
your Right my Math was wrong,
i was Counting Engine HS as 20% of total Mech not 20% of Engine,

Math wise if each Arm and ST has 5SH and the engine has 5(15 Total)
than losing a ST would make you lose 5+1(20%) so 6 of 15,
so at max a 40% HS loss in this case,

i was taking the Engines 20% from the Total so losing 1 ST,
so would lose you 5 and 20% of the 15, so 5+8=3 or 8 of 15,
so my Flawed Math would have been 53% still under 70%,

your right my math was Flawed,
and ill admit that i was wrong,
well now i feel silly,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 31 March 2015 - 05:51 PM.

[Adamski]

Technically the absolutely worst hit is the Adder with 4x MPL and 18 DHS

It loses 5 DHS in the side and arm, then another 1.6 from the engine for a total of 6.6 which is 37%

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mcgral18, on 31 March 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

Something like the PeaceDove would lose 6 regardless of ST
WHK-PRIME

Base heat cap of
18*1.4+20+30
=75.2 20% bonus brings that to 90.24

Removal of the ST brings it down the 6 external, and 20% from the CT
(20+(1.4*3)*.8)+6*1.4+50
=24.2+8.4+30
=62.6 20% bonus brings it to 75.12 (depending how PGI Maths, how the buffed heatsinks react when mastered. I'm assuming after the fact)

62.6/75.2
=83.2 A 16.8% nerf

Or, maybe,
75.12/90.24
=83.2 which is the same ~17% nerf.

Myth Lynx next.

Meh, give it's LT a 20% Heat dissipation buff.....its loaded with like 7 DHS....









And ERPPC in general really should be changed to

PPC: 10/10, 3.5s CD, 1150ms, quirks to let it be around 1250
ISERPPC: 10/13, 4s CD, 1200ms, quirks to let it be around 1250-1300
CERPPC: 15/15, 5s CD, 1150ms, quirks to let it be around 1300 on certain CERPPC mechs that main them, HBR, WHK, ADR and SMR-Primes.

Cuz before, I could see a 15/15 CERPPC being a bit OP, but then, as Escef said, I didnt play the game. But I have been doing so more often, and have spent like 20 or so games playing just my WHK-P and I can safely say, a 10/15 1050 CERPPC is a ***** joke. A 15/15 CERPPC would not be OP, it would be a good weapon worthy of being used. And in case of DUal Gauss/PPC loadouts, the thing is, a Gauss Rifle has 1 heat, allowing it to fire endlessly, plus it has hit scan speeds.

A CERPPC, even at 1300ms speed would require leading, and it deals 15 heat, even on a WHK its only 7 shots then slow firing single after that, or pull back and cool off, so its like 8 single shots, thenmuch slower to cool off. SO, while it is an unlimited ammo GR, its not nearly as OP as one would think. Put it on an ADR, its what? 2 shots? 3 shots max before needing to cool down? HBR its like maybe 5 shots.

Thing about PPC/GRs, GRs are always limited by ammo and heavy tonnage, but the thing about a PPC, what it saves in ammo restrictions and straight weight, it has to make up for in added heat sinks to allow it to fire with any sort of decent RoF...so in the end, they are the same weight and playstyle in their own way. I personally never liked them to much for their weaknesses. But in MWO, they should be viable builds, its not balanced to have certain builds be totally worthless cuz PGI has deemed the meta to be brawling laser vomit. Even the Poptart, it should have its place, but not be so powerful its the overwhelming majority of tactics, just like laser vomit....

If someone wants a 4x CERPPC WHK, it should be just as viable in its own right as a Poptarting Highlander with a GR and PPC....In all seriousness, the more I play this game, the more I am fine with all playstyles in their own right. Ofc, they should be balanced around each other, not one is so good that the rest just go the wayside...but the light rush in CW, I cant condone that, it destroys the flavor of the game. Sure, its viable and it works and it can be countered, but its just cheesy.......

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 31 March 2015 - 05:59 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Adamski, on 31 March 2015 - 05:50 PM, said:

Technically the absolutely worst hit is the Adder with 4x MPL and 18 DHS

It loses 5 DHS in the side and arm, then another 1.6 from the engine for a total of 6.6 which is 37%

Wub Adder?

Base cap of 60
Losing the LT, it goes down to 3 PoorDubs and 8 nerfed TrueDubs.

30+(16*.8)+(3*1.4)
=47

22% nerf

[Burktross]

maths make me head spinny no comprende

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 31 March 2015 - 06:04 PM, said:

Wub Adder?

Base cap of 60
Losing the LT, it goes down to 3 PoorDubs and 8 nerfed TrueDubs.

30+(16*.8)+(3*1.4)
=47

22% nerf

Have we actually determined where the 20% "heat sink effectiveness" is applied?

That would be kinda important when we do the math....

Still, it's just bad when a Badder is penalized further.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 31 March 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

Have we actually determined where the 20% "heat sink effectiveness" is applied?

That would be kinda important when we do the math....

Still, it's just bad when a Badder is penalized further.

Nope, but I'll assume a flat 20% on all heatsinks located inside the CT.


Seems like simple enough Maths that PGI would use. Russ uses all 15 DHS on a Timby in his example.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 31 March 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

Nope, but I'll assume a flat 20% on all heatsinks located inside the CT.


Seems like simple enough Maths that PGI would use. Russ uses all 15 DHS on a Timby in his example.

I did find the source of the patch when we got this - it was 6 months ago (didn't realize it was that long):

http://mwomercs.com/...39-07-oct-2014/

Quote

New heat penalties when a 'Mech equipped with a Clan XL engine loses a side torso.
The 'Mech will lose 20% of the heat sinks in the engine.
This percentage is calculated as the total of the heat sinks integral to the engine as well as any equipped in its heat sink slots.
The lost heat sinks are removed from those integral to the engine.

So, it's just the engine DHS (including the poordubs addons, which then become poorerdubs).

That might explain why it isn't as effective for DHS heavy mechs like the Timberwolf or Stormcrow, but inevitably it hurts the Badder, Mist Lynx, and Cute Fox more.

Edited by Deathlike, 31 March 2015 - 07:00 PM.