7 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

I don't think I have to convince many of you that Generator Rushing is a huge problem in Community Warfare. Sure they can be beat, but it requires the defenders just massively outplay them. You need utterly superior in:

1. Preparation. This means blind countering with a mech that is specifically good against smaller, faster mechs. If you guess wrong and your attackers bring big mechs, you're boned.

2. Scouting. You need to have eyes as far ahead as possible to give you the most time to respond. You also have to scout out split rushes so you can't just pile onto one gate the moment you see a couple lights.

3. Skill. You don't just need to be the better player. Your team needs to be so good that you can kill every single light mech in seconds as they blitz past you.

4. Coordination. You can't just bring the right mechs, and be a better player. You have to make sure everyone is where they need to be when they need to be or some spider or ice ferret will slip behind a generator and take it down. It's hard enough with a veteran premade unit. Practically futile with pugs.

It is by definition imbalanced. It takes very little skill to run to generators in a suicidal charge and shoot them until they die. That doesn't mean it always works, but it takes little to no effort to pull off. I'm sorry if this hurts some people's feelings. I don't mean to insult anyone or imply they are not good at the game just because they choose an effective strategy. However, I'm not going to cherry coat this and say it requires you to be an elite mechwarrior to suicide rush 3 weak buildings.

So what can we do to better balance community warfare?

1. Increase Generator hitpoints by +1000. Generator rushing is a DPS race for the defenders. They need to do X amount of damage in Y time or they lose their buildings. So to improve that imbalance you need to increase the amount of time defenders have to kill their attackers. Simple way to increase the time it takes for a rush to succeed is to increase the amount of time it takes to kill a generator. Teams that are actually pushing and holding a spot with a generator will have no difficulty taking it down.


2. Do not create pockets of space behind and beside generators. Do you know how hard it is to root out lights that are tucked between a generator and a cliff wall? The space around generators have all these little nooks and crannies that lights lodge themselves into which makes it a nightmare for defenders to attack with any haste. Even if one guy can slide himself into position to attack, he winds up blocking anyone else from shooting at him. Terrain designers need to put the generators right up against the cliff walls so you can't snuggle up behind them.

3. Remove that stupid smoke effect from wounded generators. How am I supposed to see these ECM lights when the entire area is billowing with impenetrable smoke?! I can't turn this off no matter my settings.

4. Clear up the area around the generator so defenders have clear lines of fire. There is way too much clutter that actively works against defenders trying to rescue their generators. A mech shooting at a generator should be exposed to the defenders and turrets.

If PGI cares about the future of their flagship game mode, this needs to be their number one priority. It's a horribly gimmicky style of play and it's incredibly difficult for even good teams to fend off. More importantly it makes for absolutely terrible games. I'm usually relatively relaxed about winning/losing, and yet it takes a lot of effort on my part not to tell the other team where they can shove their win when I get gen rushed. The matches just aren't fun when you get generator rushed. Even when defenders win, there is nothing fun about burning through 4 waves of mechs that are just running past you.

My worry is that PGI is just looking at spreadsheets that show them that yes, attackers are going through 2-4 waves of mechs this weekend. But a large reason is simply so they can secure their 80 points. They're still blowing through all 3 generators in one wave of suicide-lights.

Again I need to emphasize this. GENERATOR RUSHING IS NOT FUN. GETTING GENERATOR RUSHED IS NOT FUN. Stop making this the best way to win the game.

[Leggin Ho]

OR make the Gen's untouchable until at least 12 kills have been reached and make the penalty for ejecting HUGE.

[sycocys]

Can't say that I either enjoy the tactic or have ever been on a team that has employed it since Jenner rushing way early on in standard drops, unless you count 3 generator pushes on Grim Portico - I really don't, we engage like normal just push the match towards the generators since they are so spaced out.

It's definitely not interesting to play against, but that's why we also need more depth in the modes themselves to clear out these rush tactics from the start of the match.

Edited by sycocys, 30 March 2015 - 11:15 AM.

[Deathlike]

I doubt it's that OP, and while I think increasing Omega's health would help a little, but it changes the dynamics a bit, and you'll not like the consequences.

1) Most attacks will end up being more like Counter Attack. - While the Light Rush can succeed to collecting points on Attack, you are going to force people who don't have the ability to muscle their way to the gens to make a lot more concerted effort to fight and push into the gens. This isn't necessarily bad, but more of the better teams do this instead of "straight Light rushing". They don't have a problem accomplishing this. Bad teams will not be able to do sustainable light rushes anyways.


2) Spawn killing will likely increase. - A lot of the better teams do this, but even mediocre teams do this as well. It's kind of a exploitative mechanic, and perhaps some rework to where team drop or dropship firepower could be altered to a point where it isn't as sustainable. However, better teams would end up keeping their distance and shoot once the dropship is out of the way. Something like letting the dropship stay longer (like another 5 to 10 seconds) while under attack and/or "upgrade" the medium lasers to Clan ERMeds or at least make them "IS ERMeds" (extend the range) would be sufficient. Still, this will be a preferred "farming tactic".

Also, if the game would somehow auto-alter where you could drop (like, you could tell the game where you'd want to drop), that would help.


3) I didn't have a 3rd, so this is a filler point. - While I do think some of the suggestions help, because you did take some time thinking about it (and they seem pretty solid for the most part)... I don't think that would solve some of the systemic problems like drop inequities (not solvable unless more people play CW in groups) and just people bringing bad builds of their own volition (we're not even talking about the trial mechs)... and the NPE not being helpful.

So, it is what it is.

[Telmasa]

Well for my part I agree with Jman5 completely.
I can't help but feel mollified, as I've seen Jman5 be on both sides of this fence, both soloing and playing with his unit, who was on both sides of the conflict at different points throughout this event. He's both participated in doing the base rushes & being based rushed.

Unlike Jman5, I lose control when there's gen rushes and base camps - he said it perfectly, the game isn't fun when it's gimmicky. That's just a B.S. contest, that's not fun gaming.

I respect him both for admitting that it aggravates him, and for holding it in where I have not.

And the points he makes seem rational and effective to me. It would be well worth at least testing it out to see if it works - I mean with the current status quo, what's the harm?

Edited by Telmasa, 30 March 2015 - 10:16 PM.

[Divine Retribution]

Change invasion requirements to "destroy Omega and have kill lead at the end of the match". Let the rush be an actual game mode in 4v4 raids, because that is what the rush is, a raid not an invasion. Invasion should be the most difficult fight to win. The turrets would create a slight imbalance in favor of the defenders, but still pale in comparison to what it should take to overcome an entrenched enemy position.

As the objectives currently stand it requires a clearly superior defender to stop a rush by clearly inferior attackers or the attacking force must completely fail to organize the rush. Any other situation results in the destruction of Omega in short order.

Edited by Divine Retribution, 31 March 2015 - 04:17 PM.

[Mystere]

Leggin Ho, on 30 March 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

OR make the Gen's untouchable until at least 12 kills have been reached and make the penalty for ejecting HUGE.

So, the generator just magically becomes vulnerable after the 12th death?

This is no better than the anti-spawn camping suggestion of making dropped mechs completely invulnerable for X amount of seconds.

Edited by Mystere, 31 March 2015 - 06:39 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

IMO the best solution is to replace the 3 destructible generators with 3 conquest style cap points, 2 (lets say) of which must be flipped to attacker team side for Omega to be vulnerable. Completely stops rushing for the most part since defenders could simply flip them back. Put roofs over the cap points to prevent arty spam and make them somewhat defend-able to allow attackers to hold them if they are doing well.