116 replies to this topic

[Soy]

FupDup, on 30 March 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

[/media

This is how I use Seismic:

[DaZur]

Simply put there's two schools of thought regarding MW:O and R&R...

A.) R&R is viewed not only as a logistical challenge but also a form of soft balance in regards to mech design and configuration. It's a quasi marriage or MOBA and MMO and role playing... This sort of fluff to us (I'm in this category) is what BT is and MW is just a small albeit important aspect of it.

B.) Those who see the above fluffery and impedance to the actual "fun" that is big stompy robots.

The sad reality is there is no easy way for the two to agree on a common ground as they are effectively oil and water...

Edited by DaZur, 30 March 2015 - 07:38 PM.

[Davers]

DaZur, on 30 March 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

Simply put there's two schools of thought regarding MW:O and R&R...

A.) R&R is viewed not only as a logistical challenge but also a form of soft balance in regards to mech design and configuration. It's a quasi marriage or MOBA and MMO and role playing... This sort of fluff to us (I'm in this category) is what BT and MW is just a small albeit important aspect of it.

B.) Those who see the above fluffery and impedance to the actual "fun" that is big stompy robots.

The sad reality is there is no easy way for the two to agree on a common ground as they are effectively oil and water...

But the IS is running cheap standard engine and energy weapon builds, and the Clans have no alternative upgrade options, and are running energy builds too. Even by lore standards the Thunderbolt is common in almost every House...

Balancing by economy in a game where you can literally purchase money is a bad idea.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lightfoot, on 30 March 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

R N R didn't work, players just used mechs with no armor except the CT and made out like bandits.

I assume we will get faction based rewards for our mechs at some point during the CW Beta.

Actually, most of us that made out like bandits jsut didn't waist money maxxing every mech out, so we weren't losing expensive Xl engines.

[Soy]

I always said Clans should've been for the more tryhard inclined, yada yada...

Imagine 10v12, with RnR, in CW, costly invasion, lot on the line, costly mechs, costly tech, havin to fight honorably.......


............and remove this noncanon 'balance', let the Clan throttle go full tilt, and let only high Elo players use em! It'd be ****** epic. xD

[Davers]

Soy, on 30 March 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

I always said Clans should've been for the more tryhard inclined, yada yada...

Imagine 10v12, with RnR, in CW, costly invasion, lot on the line, costly mechs, costly tech, havin to fight honorably.......


............and remove this noncanon 'balance', let the Clan throttle go full tilt, and let only high Elo players use em! It'd be ****** epic. xD

Not exactly good game design to give the best players the best mechs, so they can fight weaker players in weaker mechs...

[Nathan Foxbane]

Lightfoot, on 30 March 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

R N R didn't work, players just used mechs with no armor except the CT and made out like bandits.

I assume we will get faction based rewards for our mechs at some point during the CW Beta.

Like Bishop said those who didn't take XL engines made out like bandits. Case was meaningful equipment back than and just like in table top campaign rules, cut your repair costs on XLs damaged due to side torso loss.

My CPLT-C1(F) with standard launchers and standard engine was basically a license to print C-Bills in those days.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Soy, on 30 March 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

............and remove this noncanon 'balance', let the Clan throttle go full tilt, and let only high Elo players use em! It'd be ****** epic. xD

Yeah, so would the player population, the whole 20 of them.

[DaZur]

Davers, on 30 March 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

But the IS is running cheap standard engine and energy weapon builds, and the Clans have no alternative upgrade options, and are running energy builds too. Even by lore standards the Thunderbolt is common in almost every House...

Balancing by economy in a game where you can literally purchase money is a bad idea.

I hear you and understand you... but this is where MW:O fails. The reality IS there is no "balance" in the BT universe... only equity. Clans ARE supposed to (temporarily) be more powerful than IS... The AC/20 IS the most powerful weapon... Large lasers ARE more powerful than mediums...etc...etc...etc. The only reason for "balance" is strictly applied to placate the need to have parity for competitive reasons.

AC/20 most powerful weapon? Soft balance it with a slow reload, high heat and limited ammo... medium lasers make up what they lack in damage to a faster cycle rate.

R&R doesn't have to be a monetizing mechanic... It can be strictly a soft balance mechanic between missions to offset the advantages of front-loaded ballistics and the inherent cost of doing field repairs to highly customized or hard-to come by mech commodities.

In short... There should be intrinsic risk reward for piloting a common mech with common weapons versus a highly modified / rare mech on the battlefield. You want stock mechs to mean something? You want to give value to trial mechs? Make is worth while to not power-creep and stuff a mech with top-tier kit...

R&R doesn't have to be a punishment... It can be a reward to pilots who are able to weigh the value of consequences.

Edited by DaZur, 30 March 2015 - 07:38 PM.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

Xetelian, on 30 March 2015 - 01:57 PM, said:

Repair Re-Arm comes back and I'll leave. I think it is the single dumbest feature imagined.

word

[Davers]

DaZur, on 30 March 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

I hear you and understand you... but this is where MW:O fails. The reality IS there is no"balance" in the BT universe... only equity. Clans ARE supposed to (temporarily) be more powerful than IS... The AC/20 IS the most powerful weapon... Large lasers ARE more powerful than mediums...etc...etc...etc. The only reason for "balance" is strictly sue to the need to have parity for competitive reasons.

AC/20 most powerful weapon? Soft balance it with a slow reload, high heat and limited ammo... medium lasers make up what they lack in damage to a faster cycle rate.

R&R doesn't have to be a monetizing mechanic... It can be strictly a soft balance mechanic between missions to offset the advantages of front-loaded ballistics and the inherent cost of doing field repairs to highly customized or hard-to come by mech commodities.

In short... There should be intrinsic risk reward for piloting a common mech with common weapons versus a highly modified / rare mech on the battlefield. You want stock mechs to mean something? You want to give value to trial mechs? Make is worth while to not power-creep and stuff a mech with top-tier kit...

R&R doesn't have to be a punishment... It can be a reward to pilots who are able to weigh the value of consequences.

Everything about MWO is based on the idea that people will be using upgraded and customized mechs. It's too late to go back on that decision. Besides, I can't imagine using stock mechs with the current LRM mechanics.

[DaZur]

Davers, on 30 March 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

Everything about MWO is based on the idea that people will be using upgraded and customized mechs. It's too late to go back on that decision. Besides, I can't imagine using stock mechs with the current LRM mechanics.

Oh, there most definitely is no chance of turning back... The die is caste.

Sadly were' stuck with this weird amalgamation of lore fluff and hard balance concessions that make MW:O lose it's fundamental identity. We have at best a MW based shooter that has no soul... well, because it's so flipping meta driven and sterile.

At the end of the day PGI and the vocal community are to blame... PGI for being feckless and unable to put their foot down and state emphatically exactly what MW:O was supposed to be. And the community for being so divided in terms of what they wanted MW:O to be...

Edited by DaZur, 30 March 2015 - 08:11 PM.

[Soy]

Davers, on 30 March 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

Not exactly good game design to give the best players the best mechs, so they can fight weaker players in weaker mechs...

Well, there's a lot of things goin against em in what I said in that example...

DaZur, on 30 March 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

At the end of the day PGI and the vocal community are to blame...

That's kinda why I guillotine ************* like I just did from time to time...

Edited by Soy, 30 March 2015 - 08:40 PM.

[Telmasa]

I'd just throw out the last two ideas.

Give people 20% bonus c-bills for using mechs that are tied to their faction.

BOOM! All the discussions & problems in this thread, solved.

[Lily from animove]

mech balance = mech diversity.

And we know how mech balance looks like. FS9's are quite used a lot, but not everyone wants to play them and not every day all day. So if you do not have a specific fanship for a chassis you will not do that all day.

[Lily from animove]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 March 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

by not thinking symmetrically? Thats why one mech has better speed, or agility, or armor...superior hardpoint placement, etc.

LOl, no, just look at the IS lights and you already have a counterproof to this theory. SDR 5V vs any Firestarter. NOTHING with basic weapon balance will every balance thise mechs, because the only difference is JJ in their amounts but this is a tertiary feature that will not make the difference. Same for the Jenner F. same tonnage, Speed difference is negliable here in terms of speed, less JJs, and also less E hardpoints.
basic weapon balance alone will never fix this in any way. it will be rough foundation, but balance can only be achieved on per mech bassis.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 30 March 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:

RnR would basically mean that space poors have to use SHS stock Swaybacks while veteran Mech Romneys use decked-out golden Mad Cats and devour them effortlessly.

It would also encourage passive/cowardly play because you'd be further penalized for every point of damage you take (well, more penalty than just the fact that your health pool went down).

And it's a nerf to ammo-based weapons, when our current metagame is massively focused on energy weapons as it is...

Not really. I'm almost a space poor (1.8 Million C-Bills) Double Sinks are not that expensive an upgrade. I know I would have mostly standard engines (like I already do). I carried 11 tons of ammo the whole time we had R&R and i carry much less (half at most) now that we don't. I tend to avoid CASE as useless where I always had it during R&R, Yes players will play more intelligently (not so much Passive) cause driving a multi million $ vehicle should not be run like a crash car. Thinking Mans game means you know when to push and when to wait for teh right opportunity. Could be why My K/Dr dropped since we lost R&R. I don't have to worry about repercussions of standing till death.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 31 March 2015 - 05:17 AM.