30 replies to this topic

[zolop]

To make base rushes

Paigan, on 31 March 2015 - 04:04 AM, said:

What Lily said.


Last time we got totally light-rushed (omega at 75% on the first wave despite reaction quite well to the lights, killing them okay, etc.) I thought: If this is supposed to be a viable option, then there wouldn't be any mechs > 35t in the universe.

As there are heavier mechs, that must naturally mean that such a strategy is unwantedly overpowered and hence must be nerfed.

TBH my impression is the whole CW mode is a much much too special-cased style of playing.
You have exactely one big target, generators that protect it, gates as initial buffers, generators for the gates, special-tailored terrain for all the specific tactical elements of this one particular scenario.
You also can't use the terrain for much else because it is so special-tailored, which seems like a kind of waste of development time to me.

It's like MWO Dota.

And because it is such a specialcased niche szenario, it is susceptible for special case strategies.

Shouldn't mech battles be something different?
Like a giant map where scouting is actually needed and different strategies (like speed or stealth or all-out assault) can work equally?


CW could very well be just a series of special game modes on generic maps, like:
1.) A little more complex scouting of a map for a dropship landing zone
2.) Defending the dropship after it has landed
3.) Scout another map a little for strategic targets (Cannons or otherwise)
4.) Some matches where a strategic target is attacked
5.) Some Counter-attack matches

All on generic maps (we could have 5-10 more of those by now if the special-tailored maps wouldn't have been to be developed), all that would be required is a little scripting for objectives, target objects, etc.

Agree with the addition of increased map size and have more dynamic objectives. One thing that is fun to do when making a mission in the Arma 3 engine is that I can make new objectives appear after one is complete. It would be interesting to have a dynamic mission system like that in MWO, which would need at least bigger maps... for CW. Arma 3 has a huge virtual land mass to make missions on that, which lets a lot of players find creative ways to play the same game in new ways, in different strategies. It would be great if CW maps could be expanded to take advantage to take that philosophy too (even if they only expand to 4x-3x previous size for CW).

and on invasion....

If the defenders had to retreat to a pickup/dropship in counter attack mode after their base was destroyed it would make the game mode much more strategic than most kills. Strategically why would any army leave units on the battlefield if it cannot support them, units that are working completely/near completely (after the dropship could pick mech that are retreating to safe area)? CW was suppose to be for more simulation players of battletech right? If the defenders mobile base is destroyed in counter attack mode, let the remaining units fall back to a retreat zone. Basically this gives them a reason to pull back and cover their losses.The put in a retreat dropzone with a time limit at that point if the base is destroyed. Additional destruction of the enemy defenders mech/structures when they are retreating is THEN counted toward a C_Bill bonus NOT before. Shouldn't strategic goals or win conditions far outweigh deathmatch win conditions (like invasion mode), especially in the case of counter attack? Its a pipe dream right now though. The new CW map is so very horrible, just funnels both teams into one location for a battle. They need to make the maps bigger, move the gate generators in a safer location too. Having a Power station that powers the turrets would add more strategies for the attackers and defenders.

Carpenocturn, on 31 March 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

As Jacob Knight said

Exactly right. The mission matters in CW above the means to achieve it.
The western worlds militaries do not tolerate a 90% material and pilot loss to achieve a mission. They will only give the go ahead to missions they have thrashed out and believe are achieveible. CW is not bound by this.
Light rush is alive and well because not only can you risk the loss of 240-1250 without winning, you can expect to win after having risked it.

Objectives that are, Take and hold. Defend.
for points, resources, attack zones, closing gates, repairing facilities etc, battlefield information etc

Agree Fully

Edited by zolop, 31 March 2015 - 02:59 PM.

[blackndecker17]

Considering most lights like spider and locust were made to tackle infantry. People complained enough when their 25 ton mech got blown out of the water that they got quirked enough now that they can run in and take out a base. If they didn't have their internals doubled and died as easily as they should. This wouldn't be a problen

[Mystere]

blackndecker17, on 31 March 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

Considering most lights like spider and locust were made to tackle infantry. People complained enough when their 25 ton mech got blown out of the water that they got quirked enough now that they can run in and take out a base. If they didn't have their internals doubled and died as easily as they should. This wouldn't be a problen

And even less players will be taking lights in the non-CW queues. And in CW itself, lights will just be used as drop deck fillers.

And just to be accurate, light rushes are not taking out entire bases. They are only taking out the gauss cannon those bases were built to protect.

Edited by Mystere, 31 March 2015 - 03:24 PM.

[Divine Retribution]

Mystere, on 31 March 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

And just to be accurate, light rushes are not taking out entire bases. They are only taking out the gauss cannon those bases were built to protect.

To continue with the accuracy, rushes (light and otherwise) that take out a single canon generator also causes the immediate surrender of the entire defensive force and immediate control of 1/15th of the strategic value of a planet. That would never happen; the otherwise intact defensive forces would just repair or replace the generator.

That's why the mission objectives of invasion are wrong. Destroying a single orbital canon generator cannot be called an invasion any more than taking out a SAM site in modern terms could be called an invasion. It is only a strike that enables air/space assets to land troops without being shot down. The real fight at that point hasn't even begun.

An invasion should be an invasion, a raid should be a raid, and PGI should have known better than putting both together at the start of CW.

[Telmasa]

Part of the problem is that "light raids" as envisioned by Battletech would occur on "maps" that are exponentially larger than what we're seeing in game - and none of those maps would be limited by "lanes", impassible mountains, and so on. The map boundaries would really just be a red line that artificially hems the players into a certain area for the purpose of gameplay, and that's it.

What's been envisioned, and what we've actually gotten, are RADICALLY different - which gives rise to all the ridiculous problems we have now.

[Ripper X]

Make it so attackers have to kill at least 50% of the defending team + kill Omega. A very simple fix. Rushing could still be a tactic used in the latter part of the game. You are looking at much longer and more satisfying matches

[InRev]

I'd rather they just scrap the chokepoint design of invasion mode and gives us something more open-world feeling, where scouting, sniping, flanking, skirmishing etc all mattered instead of the arena-style *********** of a mode we have now.

[SgtSkullShatter]

InRev, on 01 April 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

I'd rather they just scrap the chokepoint design of invasion mode and gives us something more open-world feeling, where scouting, sniping, flanking, skirmishing etc all mattered instead of the arena-style *********** of a mode we have now.

+1

Ripper X, on 01 April 2015 - 06:09 PM, said:

Make it so attackers have to kill at least 50% of the defending team + kill Omega. A very simple fix. Rushing could still be a tactic used in the latter part of the game. You are looking at much longer and more satisfying matches

+1

Both simple and easy to implement...

[sycocys]

I'm with most of you guys, its a pretty pointless tactic. The only team that gets c-bills and xp is the defending team that kills most if not all of your lights on the first rush.

Doubly wasting peoples time if you want to use this lame tactic and don't fill up your own 12 man and waste solo drop players time with it on top of the entire other team's and your own (though you obviously don't care about earning any rewards for a match if you are using this tactic anyhow).

But like Divine Retribution says, at least you can count on our group to invade you and bring a fight to the match.

[Kin3ticX]

Thanks for the posts guys. Valid arguments on both sides. The big picture of CW is to flip planets. So whichever tactic gets the job done whether its 48-48 attrition or base rushing is perfectly valid.

I have some more thoughts on it but I am not sure how to lay it out in text. I don't know, I just think in some sense base rushing is like turning a PVP mission into a PVE mission. Since it is potentially powerful and has worked many times, this essentially means the presence of 12 human defenders is just a formality. Now, whether the defender is a well prepared 12-man or just randoms is another factor. It seems to have a pretty good chance to work on many 12-man teams. Randoms are just about completely helpless against a 12-man coordinated rush even more so than a 12-man attrition roflstomp.

I have some ideas for additional debate material but those will have to wait.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 01 April 2015 - 10:55 PM.

[Mystere]

sycocys, on 01 April 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

I'm with most of you guys, its a pretty pointless tactic. The only team that gets c-bills and xp is the defending team that kills most if not all of your lights on the first rush.

I agree it's pretty pointless, if your goal is to earn c-bills above everything else. But, I would argue that it is highly effective and efficient, if your goal is to take the planet above all else.

It's all a matter of priorities.