28 replies to this topic

[RedDevil]

Russ just tweated an upcoming change to CW.
Basically, there will always be a 50/50 you will get an attack or a defense, unless it's an autowin drop. Now you can't zerg a planet to guarantee attacking drops while waiting for defending drops to queue up.

Edited by reddevil, 30 March 2015 - 02:59 PM.

[Deathlike]

Link?

I was kinda hoping for a 50-50-ish system (depending on the state of the planet), but even then, you still have to win your matches to begin with. That's not going to change. This also includes having #s...

[Chef Kerensky]

That sounds like a terrible idea. Can't wait for a dozen defense/hold territory nodes in a row as determined by the RNG rendering your drops meaningless.

How about winning a match flips a node so counterattack/invasion isn't an issue in the first place?

Edited by Chef Kerensky, 30 March 2015 - 03:12 PM.

[RedDevil]

Deathlike, on 30 March 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

Link?

https://twitter.com/russ_bullock

Chef Kerensky, on 30 March 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

That sounds like a terrible idea. Can't wait for a dozen defense/hold territory nodes in a row as determined by the RNG rendering your drops meaningless.

How about winning a match flips a node so counterattack/invasion isn't an issue in the first place?

That's how it currently works, but if there is no defender when 12 players queue up, it defaults to attack in prep for the ghost drop. That's why zerging wins planets, the defenders are always defending if their pop is lower.

[Tarogato]

Russ Bullock, from Twitter:
(bear in mind, this is Twitter, so it's really hard to form sentences and cohesive thoughts with the character limit per post... )

Quote

Fix/improvement being investigated for CW - where flooding of Queue will have less impact on what game mode is selected.

Currently it makes an attempt to switch back and forth 50/50 between Invasion and Counter Attack, however if their isn't an opposing team available immediately it will switch to the other mode making the first team in Queue dictate. Therefore so long as your population is able to keep up enough to prevent autowins you should get your fair shake at the game mode you need

Looking to change that so it will always make it switch back and forth 50/50 - it will only allow it to switch to the other mode in autowin. True the autowin timer was basically preventing autowins all weekend almost none of them, I though this too care of the size disparity.

So long as you can keep up enough to prevent autowins and your win % is greater than the opposing side. But I was wrong it doesn't completely as I have described-however this new change will fix this. A minimum viable population can succeed. Basically as long as you have enough population to prevent autowins you will get 50/50 opportunities for your desired game mode.

Well I don't have time to make a post about this atm, but can try to add a post or a section about this in my April Roadmap post.

Btw - stats should just 2% full blown autowins over the course of the event so far.

Again this shows factions even with less numbers are "keeping up" - there just not getting a fair shake at the game mode they need/want

... more likely to be April 21st for this change

- Reddit thread: http://www.reddit.co...d_for_cw_where/
- First Tweet by Russ: https://twitter.com/...675391115997184
- Discussion that I believe led to this: https://twitter.com/...923817892765697

---

tl;dr...
Right now the problem is: the faction that gets 12 people in queue to form a team first is the faction that gets an offensive ticket. If you are a faction that is behind in the numbers, then you are stuck defending territories and can never take any for yourself even if you win all your matches.

The proposed fix is to decide the game mode by 50/50 coin toss instead of guaranteeing the advantage to the more populous faction.

---

Edited by Tarogato, 30 March 2015 - 03:37 PM.

[Chef Kerensky]

reddevil, on 30 March 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

https://twitter.com/russ_bullock

That's how it currently works, but if there is no defender when 12 players queue up, it defaults to attack in prep for the ghost drop. That's why zerging wins planets, the defenders are always defending if their pop is lower.

It defaults to defense if defenders queue up first, and attack if attackers queue up first. The team that has more 12 mans gets what they want because their last team is almost invariably queueing up first. it's a bad system, but changing it to an RNG-determined 50/50 spread sounds so much worse it isn't funny.

Again, a more elegant solution would be to make it so that it doesn't matter who queues up first - if you win your match you flip a node. The flipside to that would be that you could no longer attach specific maps to specific nodes, but I think that's a better price to pay.

Edited by Chef Kerensky, 30 March 2015 - 04:08 PM.

[RedDevil]

Chef Kerensky, on 30 March 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

It defaults to defense if defenders queue up first,

You mean Counter-Attack? If it worked the way you described, then there would never be a chance for defenders to regain territory

[Jman5]

I'm really happy to see this coming into place. This has been one of the more frustrating elements of Community Warfare. You want to pick planets that already have an opposing team ready to go, but that means you're often stuck defending if it's your planet. Or getting nothing but counter-attack if its an opposing planet.

Edited by Jman5, 30 March 2015 - 04:39 PM.

[Deathlike]

Tarogato, on 30 March 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

---

tl;dr...
Right now the problem is: the faction that gets 12 people in queue to form a team first is the faction that gets an offensive ticket. If you are a faction that is behind in the numbers, then you are stuck defending territories and can never take any for yourself even if you win all your matches.

The proposed fix is to decide the game mode by 50/50 coin toss instead of guaranteeing the advantage to the more populous faction.

I don't think the numbers would change the result that significantly... although having a queue of 4 or 5 attackers/defenders behind them forcing a specific result is a pretty bad behavior.

What is annoying honestly is that having to requeue ASAP is just silly just trying to abuse the mechanic as some people naturally come and go in faction groups that it's just a race to relaunching. That's not a good behaving mechanic.

It should be somewhat random, give or take one or two minutes before the game match/mode is decided IMO due to people needing to start filling in for matches. It kinda needed to be solved given how the system is set up in favor of the overaggressive force.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 March 2015 - 04:41 PM.

[Czarr]

Hey look! It's the "stop MS from zerging" fix. Thanks Russ! Finally nice to see you guys reading the forums

Edited by Czarr, 30 March 2015 - 06:20 PM.

[Xetelian]

This is not a solution for the light rush >_<

[Yokaiko]

Xetelian, on 30 March 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

This is not a solution for the light rush >_<

No that is called a streak crow.

[Davers]

Xetelian, on 30 March 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

This is not a solution for the light rush >_<

This is a different use of the word 'zerg'.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Davers, on 30 March 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

This is a different use of the word 'zerg'.

Zerg: Verb.

1 - Tactical Zerg: To form a coordinated 12-man wave using only lights equipped with JJs, in order to overwhelm and destroy any fixed objectives when attacking or to spoil any coordination on the part of the other team when defending.

2 - Strategic Zerg: To spam a planetary queue to the point where you lock the enemy team into sub-par game types, preventing them from recovering lost territory.

[Kjudoon]

What CW is rapidly become... the Pig Lizard. Now we shall apply the Digital Conveyer to "fix it".

[Telmasa]

This...was so not what I was expecting to read when it comes to the infamous "CW Zerg".

[RedDevil]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 30 March 2015 - 08:27 PM, said:

Zerg: Verb.

1 - Tactical Zerg: To form a coordinated 12-man wave using only lights equipped with JJs, in order to overwhelm and destroy any fixed objectives when attacking or to spoil any coordination on the part of the other team when defending.

This is a light rush. Zerging requires more numbers than your enemy to overwhelm them. You can't "zerg" once you're on the map. It's 12 vs 12.

[slide]

I fail to see why this has to be so complicated.

We already have random sector (map) selection in the game. Simply pit 2 teams against each other, pick a map and they play whatever game mode required depending on whether the sector is red or blue. The only over ride needed is for an appropriate game mode if you are ghost dropping with no opposition.

This would result in the invading team getting more attack matches early on and the defending team getting more Counter Attacks as the planet is conquered. Planets would tend to hover more around 40-60% range making taking or holding ground even more critical at the end of ceasefire.

Russ's plan could render a large number of games moot before they even start, this increases grind and frustration for no good purpose.

Example: Last night I was attacking Liao (the planet) against Marik. The planet was at 46%. If we as the invaders won we took the planet, if the defending Marik team won the got to keep it. The match was launched about 2 minutes too ceasefire so it was literally the decider. Both teams knew and it was an epic match (we lost for the record). Russ' plan (and mine) could have easily rendered this match completely wasted by making it a counter attack instead. Every member of both teams could have disconnected with absolutely no change in the result of the planets ownership. At least with my method there is a better than even chance of making that last match count, rather than it being moot. With Russ's method we might as well just start flipping coins for planet owner ship.

[jeirhart]

slide, on 30 March 2015 - 10:29 PM, said:

Example: Last night I was attacking Liao (the planet) against Marik. The planet was at 46%. If we as the invaders won we took the planet, if the defending Marik team won the got to keep it. The match was launched about 2 minutes too ceasefire so it was literally the decider. Both teams knew and it was an epic match (we lost for the record). Russ' plan (and mine) could have easily rendered this match completely wasted by making it a counter attack instead. Every member of both teams could have disconnected with absolutely no change in the result of the planets ownership. At least with my method there is a better than even chance of making that last match count, rather than it being moot. With Russ's method we might as well just start flipping coins for planet owner ship.

Having a slightly smaller chance for the last game to be the deciding game (46->53 or 53->46) is a small price to pay to give smaller populations a chance to win against larger populations.

[Davegt27]

Zerg is a tactic

It’s a modus operandi

A method of operating

The way to do something

If they eliminate zerg rushes do we then demand the elimination of streak boats?

How about a heavy rush how are we going to solve that problem?

Winning is a problem that also needs to be solved