20 replies to this topic

[Averen]

Lets put the usual - valid - complaints aside for a second. A while ago, I realized something. I don't hate the Metagame anymore.

Let me paint a picture of my feelings about a particular meta:

Imagine a Highlander on forest colony, standing behind the ships wreckage. This heavy warmachine then effortlessly raises into the air, gracefully like a brick with rockets, far above the battlefield. Then, reaching the peak of his trajectory, energy bolts are released from his particle cannons, synchronized with the devastating projectile of an AC20. You also may imagine him throwing down an artillery strike, during his slow descent, the brick falling out of the sky back to earth.
Then our hero repeats his feat about a dozen times, securing his place as the MVP, the most efficient killer and a men who mastered the art of war in Mechwarrior Online. Enter The Poptart Meta.

Unnecessary to say, **** this.

But now? I don't actually mind going after the meta anymore and will often take a look at metamechs. That site will, aside from very straightforward mechs like the Thunderwub, not dictate my builds, but it serves a good advice. There is little resentment about the gameplays issues. We've reached a point of diversity:

There are specialised pinpoint sniperbuilds which usually bring notable disadvantages, like the the heat of (ER)PPCs, the mechanics of Gauß Rifles, the Burn Time and heat of ER Laser. There are DPS builds, dealing with the constant buildup and heatscale of chainfired lasers, the jamming and weight of (U)ACs, as well as the trouble coming with constantly heaving to face enemies while firing, while torsotwisting instantly cuts your damage. There are still Pinpoint builds, which are now obstructed by the impracticality and heat of flpp weapons like PPCs, AC20s as well as the basic viability of other playstyles. There are brawlers, compensating their lack of range by the massive short range firepower of SRMs, AC20s and the now viable Pulse Lasers. There are skirmishers, allowing even aggressive mediums and lights to achieve massive damage.

And that's just bunch of categories, there are countless ways to fullfill and combine these roles. Before, MWO never had this amount of diversity, and the game is more fun than ever for it. While some plays and mechs might be stronger than others, there is a pletora of viable styles and we, finally, don't have the big overarching meta we were always plagued with. All in all, the game is better than ever before and the weird balancing, though bringing a bunch of questionable decisions, finally arrived somewhere.

Now, i'm posting this, aside from just appreciating the fun, also because of curiousity. How do you feel about the meta, or how did your view change?

Edited by Averen, 01 April 2015 - 06:29 PM.

[InRev]

I don't mind the meta at all, either. I hear a lot of disparaging remarks about "laser vomit" but if someone can maintain a beam on an individual component long enough to remove it, then they are earning their pay. Plus, as you said, it comes at a severe heat price so, compared to previous PPC metas, I really don't mind the current one. Hell, I even enjoy it!

The game seems to be a lot more balanced with much more play-styles than in the past so may pop-tarting forever rest in peace (or burn in hell, for that matter)

[El Bandito]

Or, PGI could just change current hover jets into real jump jets and implement reticle shake all the way until the mech lands. Functional JJs without poptart spam. Easy.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 April 2015 - 06:59 PM.

[A Large Infant]

Poptarting and alpha-striking have their similarities. It is a matter of degree. Peeking momentarily with a very high burst of damage.

PGI has a sort of knee-jerk tendency when it comes to balance. It seems they often nerf something into oblivion once they do something about it, rather than trying to find how to bring it down to a reasonable level. For instance, collisions and mech knockdowns totally removed instead of minimized, ghost heat to reduce boating undone by quirk cheesing, hover-jets with gauss charge-up with ppc velocity nerf with A/C20 range and velocity nerf.....

[Averen]

El Bandito, on 01 April 2015 - 06:56 PM, said:

Or, PGI could just change current hover jets into real jump jets and implement reticle shake all the way until the mech lands. Functional JJs without poptart spam. Easy.

They could and should implement something, but that's been written in a million other threads. This is supposed to be more positive.^^

[Felicitatem Parco]

Meeso Thorny, on 01 April 2015 - 07:00 PM, said:

Poptarting and alpha-striking have their similarities. It is a matter of degree. Peeking momentarily with a very high burst of damage.

PGI has a sort of knee-jerk tendency when it comes to balance. It seems they often nerf something into oblivion once they do something about it, rather than trying to find how to bring it down to a reasonable level. For instance, collisions and mech knockdowns totally removed instead of minimized, ghost heat to reduce boating undone by quirk cheesing, hover-jets with gauss charge-up with ppc velocity nerf with A/C20 range and velocity nerf.....

Knockdowns were removed due to technical networking issues (rubberbanding of Mechs during the knockdown/standup process). You can't just "scale back" rubberbanding. The Gauss Charge mechanic is the only thing right now that makes AC20 worth using, and also the only thing making a heatless sniper weapon not the ultimate perfect pair for PPCs.

Some things are adjusted sharply for good reason. Other things, however, are not really. Hoverjets are kinda sad, and AC/2 are still too hot. ECM is worth way more than 1.5 tons, too. And whole-body Mech Quirks are silly compared to component-specific quirks.

But, things are better now than they were before. Even if Gauss Rifles are no longer instant-win buttons and we're still waiting for netcode that's good enough to reenable knockdowns... It's better now than before.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 01 April 2015 - 07:25 PM.

[Felbombling]

The game is becoming more balanced, I will agree with that statement. One little thing I'd like to see changed would be independent armour values for arms, legs and torsos. I think if you put 40 armour on the left arm, the right arm should automatically match value. I dislike the ability to under armour an empty arm in an effort to create a shield arm, while at the same time freeing up tonnage for extra weapons or equipment. It just doesn't seem right that a Mech would enter combat with next to no armour on a location. These lop-sided Mech designs bother me a bit.

[Felicitatem Parco]

StaggerCheck, on 01 April 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

The game is becoming more balanced, I will agree with that statement. One little thing I'd like to see changed would be independent armour values for arms, legs and torsos. I think if you put 40 armour on the left arm, the right arm should automatically match value. I dislike the ability to under armour an empty arm in an effort to create a shield arm, while at the same time freeing up tonnage for extra weapons or equipment. It just doesn't seem right that a Mech would enter combat with next to no armour on a location. These lop-sided Mech designs bother me a bit.

I wouldn't armor a worthless piece of equipment... But until arms and hands have a purpose besides mounting weapons, people will skimp on armor for non-shield arms. Centurions have a big shield, and it can be used as a shield. Hunchback arms, on the other hand, aren't a useful deployment of armor if there are no weapons there.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 01 April 2015 - 09:10 PM.

[A Large Infant]

Prosperity Park, on 01 April 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

Knockdowns were removed due to technical networking issues (rubberbanding of Mechs during the knockdown/standup process). You can't just "scale back" rubberbanding. The Gauss Charge mechanic is the only thing right now that makes AC20 worth using, and also the only thing making a heatless sniper weapon not the ultimate perfect pair for PPCs.

Some things are adjusted sharply for good reason. Other things, however, are not really. Hoverjets are kinda sad, and AC/2 are still too hot. ECM is worth way more than 1.5 tons, too. And whole-body Mech Quirks are silly compared to component-specific quirks.

But, things are better now than they were before. Even if Gauss Rifles are no longer instant-win buttons and we're still waiting for netcode that's good enough to reenable knockdowns... It's better now than before.

Hopefully without bogging down the thread with sub-issues, knockdowns were removed due to a certain individual named Paul getting hugged to death one eventful evening. Rather than scaling back the 9000 seconds of uncontrolled helplessness process to something more balanced (like an occasional stumble when mechs collide, with the ability to fire during this time, and only very lopsided collisions causing knockdowns) the entire system was knee-jerkedly removed due to what can only be assumed to be butthurt.



As far as gauss and its charge-up goes, it is IMO not a terrible idea but the context was really more the entire wave of nerfs-in-one

[ChrisTop]

Yes everyone should watch this, soo funny!

[Asrrin]

ChrisTop, on 02 April 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

Yes everyone should watch this, soo funny!

That's the knockdown mechanic that everyone is pining about?! My god it's awful! Horrible collision rendering, rubberbanding, bad animations, and that's not even mentioning the greifing. I'm totally glad it got taken out of the game.

[Bishop Steiner]

Something positive, you say?
http://mwomercs.com/...anmech-day-7-11
DONE!!!!

[A Large Infant]

I'm totally glad the devs said "we're not good enough at our jobs to make this work" and gave up on it, as well.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Really, games need to get away from being designed around meta. It should be, find yourself in the game, what do you like, how do you play and all builds and play styles should be viable, yet situational in their own way. It makes for far more fun encounters with enemies when you dont really expect every mech of a certain type...Stalker? Oh, PPC/GR or LL build. Stormcrows? Streak crow or Laser boat......it gets old really damn fast.

[dubplate]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 April 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

Really, games need to get away from being designed around meta. It should be, find yourself in the game, what do you like, how do you play and all builds and play styles should be viable, yet situational in their own way. It makes for far more fun encounters with enemies when you dont really expect every mech of a certain type...Stalker? Oh, PPC/GR or LL build. Stormcrows? Streak crow or Laser boat......it gets old really damn fast.

The problem comes from that some builds will be better and people will copy that to get a bit of an edge. In the end there are probably tons of builds that are only a bit worse that people just don't touch. The meta is made by the players, it wasn't really designed this way (except quirks) but developers have to handle players using loadouts that break their idea of the game. I do wish that all weapons in this game could effectively be used on most chasis for variety but hardpoint location alone breaks that.

[LordKnightFandragon]

dubplate, on 02 April 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

The problem comes from that some builds will be better and people will copy that to get a bit of an edge. In the end there are probably tons of builds that are only a bit worse that people just don't touch. The meta is made by the players, it wasn't really designed this way (except quirks) but developers have to handle players using loadouts that break their idea of the game. I do wish that all weapons in this game could effectively be used on most chasis for variety but hardpoint location alone breaks that.

Alongside the redundant, boring, 1 sided, repetitive gameplay. If we had a PLanetside 2 world, where its 6,000mx6,000m, then one size would not fit all. One minute you might be crossing an open plain, and holy ****, 2 ERPPC mechs just crested a ridge 800m away...what are you? Oh, an AC20 toting HBK....

NExt, you might be that AC20 toting HBK and those poor PPC sods get caught in a city, traveling to thier next location.....

THen it would be about balanced loadouts, working with your buddies to have all your bases covered....but while we get COD TDM with mechs, yes, meta will be it...

PLanetside 2 has alot of different loadouts. Yes, a select few weapons reign supreme and the key weapons used, but overall, there is a fair bit of diversity.

Also, 2x ranges in this MWO lends to certain weapons being the best all rounder and copy pasted. What if the AC20 only had its posted 360m range and couldnt hurt you past that? What if the CERML couldnt reach past it's posted 405m? What then? The LL would have its place as having better range. THe AC10 would have its place as having more range then the AC20, but giving a little damage in trade.

[A Large Infant]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 April 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

Alongside the redundant, boring, 1 sided, repetitive gameplay. If we had a PLanetside 2 world, where its 6,000mx6,000m, then one size would not fit all. One minute you might be crossing an open plain, and holy ****, 2 ERPPC mechs just crested a ridge 800m away...what are you? Oh, an AC20 toting HBK....

NExt, you might be that AC20 toting HBK and those poor PPC sods get caught in a city, traveling to thier next location.....

THen it would be about balanced loadouts, working with your buddies to have all your bases covered....but while we get COD TDM with mechs, yes, meta will be it...

PLanetside 2 has alot of different loadouts. Yes, a select few weapons reign supreme and the key weapons used, but overall, there is a fair bit of diversity.

Also, 2x ranges in this MWO lends to certain weapons being the best all rounder and copy pasted. What if the AC20 only had its posted 360m range and couldnt hurt you past that? What if the CERML couldnt reach past it's posted 405m? What then? The LL would have its place as having better range. THe AC10 would have its place as having more range then the AC20, but giving a little damage in trade.

The 50kph Assault mech would become a bigtime feast-or-famine on a map that large.

1 (kilometer per minute) = 60 kilometers per hour

1.5 (kilometers per minute) = 90 kilometers per hour

2 (kilometers per minute) = 120 kilometers per hour

[LordKnightFandragon]

Meeso Thorny, on 02 April 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

The 50kph Assault mech would become a bigtime feast-or-famine on a map that large.

1 (kilometer per minute) = 60 kilometers per hour

1.5 (kilometers per minute) = 90 kilometers per hour

2 (kilometers per minute) = 120 kilometers per hour

And that would be the price you pay. I personally would have a dropship patrolling that players could choose to drop from. Downside would be you have to wait at the star port for it to return from the patrol and to take off again.....

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

I prefer generalist mechs.

I will ALWAYS prefer generalist mechs.

why? Because I like to function at all ranges in most of my mechs. DO I do top damage? no, but you know, even with that single LRM10 system on a CN9-A, I know that I've contributed to lessening the armor on the enemy I shot at. Which in turn, helps my team win.

The "Meta" shouldn't be cookie cutter, range optimized, builds... it should be general mechs that can function at all ranges and support the team. Sure we have some mechs that are made with a specific range profile in mind, the 4G hunchback comes to mind. And we can all admit, that even with it's stock armament, that AC20 mlas combo is devistating up close. BUT, the 4G is ment to supliment the team, not to be the end all, be all brawler mech, nor is it ment to go out and dominate the battlefield on it's own.

And that's the problem, too many people focus on the lone wolf "Ultimate Mech" ideal... and they forget that this is a team game, where you're team should be supporting you, and you supporting it. There's a reason we have the Treb, and the Cent, they're ment to work together, yet you never see that happening.

Thankfully, CW has somewhat aleviated this problem... to a degree. You see more varried designs, unless people are seriously trying to cheese the system, in which case you get light rush gate jumping spam.

Then again, I want a "Battletech" game, which isn't what most people want, seems most people just want a "gunbag mech" game... where they can chew through the enemy instantly with their high damage alpha's.

[Virgil Greyson]

Prosperity Park, on 01 April 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

Knockdowns were removed due to technical networking issues (rubberbanding of Mechs during the knockdown/standup process). You can't just "scale back" rubberbanding. The Gauss Charge mechanic is the only thing right now that makes AC20 worth using, and also the only thing making a heatless sniper weapon not the ultimate perfect pair for PPCs.

I heard it was removed because a developer got griefed by goons.