65 replies to this topic

[Adiuvo]

ShinVector, on 02 April 2015 - 11:44 PM, said:

Well this one left me a bit puzzled or there is a possibility that overheat shutdown can cause temporarily hit box desyncs.
Or at least 3 hit were getting false negatives from the red cross hair indicator.

In that one it looks like the first hit shot failed to update on the paper doll. Once you took off his right leg the right torso went to the color that it should have from a 10 damage hit. The shot you hit as he shut down went to the left torso, but the one right afterwards definitely looked like it failed to reg, as well as the one two shots afterwards.

All in all there definitely are some hit reg problems with MWO, but generally it's not nearly as bad as people try to make it seem. Many times (though not in your video) people try to use it as an excuse for poor piloting.

Petard, on 02 April 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

Soooo, are you trying to say firing other weapons when your crosshair is over the target takes MORE skill?... Meh, indeed.... Just for the record, I use all weapon types, and hit stuff with all of em, interestingly enough, my hit percentage is higher with lasers than streaks, go figure...

Lasers count any touch with them at all as a hit for stat purposes. If your laser accuracy wasn't higher than your streak accuracy there would be a major problem.

[Roadbuster]

It has nothing to do with where you shoot, because the actual hitbox of the mechs can be anywhere from "right under your crosshair" to "two mech lenghs ahead".

PS: Yes, these videos were not recently made, but that's what often happens to me when fighting light mechs.

Just look at this video for a good example.
And also keep an eye on how much fire that single mech takes from multiple mechs and still survives.




Or how about this one, where the crosshair indicates a hit but the paperdoll doesn't register anything.




Another nice example of messed up hitreg




Or just no damage taken at all




Hit registration is wonky. Especially with normal lasers.
And it seems like the game is unable to correctly register damage from multiple weapons shot at once (like the SRM6 example).

Edited by Roadbuster, 03 April 2015 - 01:30 AM.

[Quxudica]

Roadbuster, on 03 April 2015 - 01:24 AM, said:

It has nothing to do with where you shoot, because the actual hitbox of the mechs can be anywhere from "right under your crosshair" to "two mech lenghs ahead".

Just look at this video for a good example.
And also keep an eye on how much fire that single mech takes from multiple mechs and still survives.




Or how about this one, where the crosshair indicates a hit but the paperdoll doesn't register anything.




Another nice example of messed up hitreg




Or just no damage taken at all




Hit registration is wonky. Especially with normal lasers.
And it seems like the game is unable to correctly register damage from multiple weapons shot at once (like the SRM6 example).

High volume of fire definitely plays havoc with hit registration. Many a time I've had to fire another round of weapons to kill something that should have already died. SRMs get this issue badly, and lasers suffer from it too if you have enough of them. Also I'm pretty sure I get this problem on my wolverine, I can't say conclusively but it definitely feels like some of my shells are duds when I'm hammering someone full auto.

[Petard]

Quxudica, on 02 April 2015 - 11:05 PM, said:

Streaks are literally 100% chance to hit weapons if you aren't shooting them into the ground or buildings. Way way back there was a time you could actually evade them if you were skilled enough as a pilot but no longer. Yes, it takes more skill to hit a target effectively with any other non-lock on weapon in the game. You have to lead your target, you have to choose what location to target, then steady your reticule over the spot you want to hit and you of course have to actually be looking at them.

With target retention you can spend the majority of your time in a streakboat simply twisting and or jumping to spread damage, since the only thing you need worry about for retaliation is waving that circle over that square every couple seconds. Even pulse lasers take more effort, they may deliver the damage via hitscan but you still have to aim for yourself, whereas missiles only require a red circle and nothing obstructing their flight path. I've killed targets that were out of my field of view and behind me using streaks, I can only assume they shot out of the ass end of my launchers, something no other weapon can achieve.

So yes the skill ceiling for using something like streaks is the lowest in the game, there are no special weapon specific things you need to learn. The key element to learning to use streaks well, positioning and torso twisting, applies to every other brawling set up in the game only those loadouts require additional skills be learned in regards to aiming and sub target selection. The only really "advanced" (that is a trick learned via experience using them) skill to be learned with streaks is that you want to fire with a height advantage if you can to avoid them hitting legs on larger mechs (this is much less important these days, since they no longer tend to hit that waist line).

I've posted my extreme distaste for both LRMs and SRMs since closed beta, I find their implementation lazy and a waste of what could be interesting weapon systems. There is so much more depth you could have from both, but no we just get a mini game on our hud. The way lock on works is also why these two weapons (especially LRMs) have almost certainly received by far the most balance passes of any weapon system in MWO.

Also, like I said standard SRMs aren't supposed to be tracking missiles (possibly limited tracking with NARC on the target, I don't remember) and even the non-standard ones with limited tracking ability should actually be larger missiles than standard srms, meaning you should be getting about 50% per ton with those. SSRMs should at their base, function exactly like SRMs: You lead the moving target slightly with your aim, you fire and it hits or if you would miss you are prevented from firing. That might be hard to implement, I don't know I'm not a programmer, but the current way they work is just so.. lazy and to be honest pretty imbalanced. They aren't the OP nightmare they were long long ago, but any weapon that effectively removes the players ability to aim as a factor is one thats badly designed in my mind.

While I agree with most of your points, especially the skill ceiling required to use ballistics and ppc's, my average ping of 250, combined with the fairly average state of hit registration and weapon balance, makes using virtually any weapon system, even streaks, to be pretty much a lottery at times in this game. Frustrating, considering that I've loved the franchise for many years, but it is what it is.

I'm not sure exactly when things degenerated to this point for me, but there are times when I look at the damage score at the end of what should have been a good match, and all I can say is "REALLY??!!", not to mention the myriad times recently that I have dumped what should have been a significant amount of damage into a critically damaged mech, only for him to run away, or worse, kill me in return.

Good Hunting

[Dino Might]

So, how many actually have current videos from after hitreg fixes to show that this is a problem? The firestarter vids just show people missing with most of a laser burn. The series from June/Dec 2014 just show that hitreg was messed up for everyone. The lights weren't the problem, because a Nova had the same issue. The Raven in the last vid takes damage to his legs as you are shooting them, and then your paper doll fails to update the last hit because you died before it updated. That's not a bug. Your sensors died because you died. You were also missing with a few of those pulse lasers because of how close he was.

So...again, let's nerf lights because obviously little mechs should be even less powerful than they are. Sorry your 95 ton mech got destroyed by a 35 ton mech, but them's the breaks.

Edited by Dino Might, 03 April 2015 - 02:31 AM.

[Averen]

Dino Might, on 03 April 2015 - 02:28 AM, said:

So...again, let's nerf lights because obviously little mechs should be even less powerful than they are. Sorry your 95 ton mech got destroyed by a 35 ton mech, but them's the breaks.

Careful gents, we've got an internet tought guy here.

Btw: Isn't it fascinating how the Spider-schema repeats? Strawmans a la 'you just wanna nerf lights' or 'dont blame your lack of skill on things' are cropping up everywhere. When comparing lights should tell the full story.

Edited by Averen, 03 April 2015 - 03:06 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Game has been lagging like crazy lately. Its acting like the servers are running out of system resources.

[DjPush]

Adiuvo, on 02 April 2015 - 10:20 PM, said:

Of all the videos to try and show a hit reg issue, you picked one where you missed an incredible number and times and the shots you did hit were with laser wash or 1 UAC shot, and it was spread everywhere from the left arm, leg, other leg, and side torsos. Then when you shut down someone finally kills the stupid thing by hitting it where you should, a full burn onto a leg.

That isn't a Firestarter issue, or hit reg issue. That's an aim issue.

It is if you watch the video a little more closely. I hit the damn thing plenty of times. I had it targeted and you can see the hits not registering. I had it dead to rights and put several vollies of AC and SRMs into its legs and then it teleported away unscathed.

[ShinVector]

DjPush, on 03 April 2015 - 05:36 AM, said:

It is if you watch the video a little more closely. I hit the damn thing plenty of times. I had it targeted and you can see the hits not registering. I had it dead to rights and put several vollies of AC and SRMs into its legs and then it teleported away unscathed.

Some things I learnt to live with MWO... Two mechs in collision leads to some very, unpredictable positioning.. aka. warping.
Better to wait and a little bit for them to stabilise before shooting at them again. I understand it is a cryengine issue.

[Dimento Graven]

PurplePaladin, on 01 April 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

Is it just me? Yesterday, I'm playing a match, in a Medium mech, and a light mech comes up to me, stops completely, and starts firing. I'm thinking "well, if he wants a toe to toe firefight, he's going to lose". He destroyed me, and never moved until I died. I thought it was just me or bad luck (or both).

Then someone say on the voice chat "Somethings wrong, I can't damage some of them" (I'm guessing he was talking about the light mechs". We ended up losing 0-12. I have not seen a 0-12 game in almost 2 years.

I did not think too much about it, until today. Another match, and I'm in a Stalker with 2LL; 2x4SRM;4SPL. It was the Forest Colony map, and I was waiting outside the entrance of he tunnel when I saw a movement blip coming through. And out pops a light mech. I thought "I'll probably one-shot this poor guy". I gave him a point blank alpha, and he took almost no damage. And he just stood there, unmoving, and firing at me. Another full spread, he's still standing there and firing at me. A 3rd attack with all weapons, and he's STILL just standing there firing at me as I shut down.

While shut down, one of his teammates emerged from the tunnel too, and they finished me before I could cool down. So, is it just me? Is this happening to anyone else? And I just don't get how a light mech pilot "chooses" to just stand there, and still survive.

Yeah I know exactly what you're talking about.

It's gotten so bad I've started recording matches again to try and catch some of the egregious examples of this bullshit, but it's like this f'ing client "knows" when I'm recording and suddenly the **** just stops happening.

I caught one issue yesterday that I'll probably post, where one 'mech jumps into another and the first 'mech gets teleported across the map for a second.

Seriously, hit reg has gone to absolute **** on light 'mechs. I can regularly kill Atlas's and Direwolves using half the shots it requires to kill a Locust, Raven, Jenner, Commando, Firestarter.

It's so f'ing bad I'm just about out of patience with it...

Nothing is more frustrating that putting 240 points of ballistic damage into the CT of light 'mech and watching the armor turn yellow.

And before all you idiot apologists go "oh well you're not hitting where you think you're hitting", "oh you're just missing more than you think", blah, blah, excuse whoring BLAH:

I'm pretty good at placing my shots where I want them, even in spite of the client's bullshit...

[Bishop Steiner]

MechaBattler, on 01 April 2015 - 10:43 PM, said:

I've had it happen where a light just picks me apart and doesn't even try moving. Just shoots out my shoulder. Even though I had more lasers. It was as if part of my damage wasn't registering or dispersing to other parts. It wasn't my aim. He wasn't moving.

The OP did say they were shooting him, so I doubt they were disco-d.

And while our Light-Hards try to downplay it (yes hit reg affects all chassis, but it seems to affect Lights far more often, apparently in concert with other factors.... and the FS9 is the current king of damage reduction.) but it's pretty undeniable they bank on it, since you know..if hitreg worked as it should, no one would charge right into the middle of 8 enemy mechs and expect to make it out intact. Of course, they can do it, because all but their esteemed 1% cannot aim.

*rolls eyes*

When I nail a FS9, dead to rights with an ac40, the crosshairs register...and the enemy mech registers... by having armor go to yellow? I hit. Everything says I did. With PP-FLD, so no amount of bunnyhopping and "micro-twisting" should spread the damage. And with 40 damage, whatever section hit should at least be into internals.

But despite the servers showing I hit...obviously, it-s my lack of skill, or the Light Hards abundance of it, that saved him.

SMH

We do have some amazing Light Pilots in this game, no doubt, but we also have some wonky broke hitreg, and you aren't NOT going to leverage that fact if you are playing top end comp play. You take advantage of everything, because you need to. I got no issue with that. I do take issue with some of the disingenuous dismissals of the issue, which I can only assume have to be to protect tender egos or something.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 03 April 2015 - 07:18 AM.

[Palor]

I was trying to melt down a Firestarter and a Spider with clan lasers and wasn't dealing any real damage to them. Then the firestarter overheated and I sat and zapped it till CT till it restarted and ran off, i scored 0 damage on it. It went from 74% to 73%, I was fairly surprised it wasn't just dead.

[SolutionCat]

ShinVector, on 02 April 2015 - 11:44 PM, said:

Well this one left me a bit puzzled or there is a possibility that overheat shutdown can cause temporarily hit box desyncs.
Or at least 3 hit were getting false negatives from the red cross hair indicator.

Honestly it looks like you where all over his hitboxes. May have clipped his arms, 2xac 5 doesn't do a ton of damage either, lights have more HP than a lot of people think.

A lot of light pilots (i pilot Jenner, Spider, FS and panther) have good knowledge of where they get shot and their hit boxes. Armor will get loaded at precisely the correct locations in order to maximize their survivability. Also those hitboxes are really small, lights have high speed movement fast torse twist and the ability to flutter jumpjets. A lot of lights can bring an unexpected amount of firepower to fights and from my experience a Ember can toe to toe a direworlf who is missing armor on any of his three torso locations and win pretty easily.

[Impossible Wasabi]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 April 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

And while our Light-Hards try to downplay it (yes hit reg affects all chassis, but it seems to affect Lights far more often, apparently in concert with other factors.... and the FS9 is the current king of damage reduction.) but it's pretty undeniable they bank on it, since you know..if hitreg worked as it should, no one would charge right into the middle of 8 enemy mechs and expect to make it out intact. Of course, they can do it, because all but their esteemed 1% cannot aim.

What matches do you play where a light runs through 8 enemy mechs and doesn't get exploded in 2 seconds?

At the moment, the Space Pope in a light mech generally views it as a bad idea to allow more than one mech to have a decent chance of hitting him in (and that is still a bad idea, however, it is an acceptable or necessary risk given the size of the maps and the fact that a light needs to kill or damage enemy mechs).

Bishop Steiner, on 03 April 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

We do have some amazing Light Pilots in this game, no doubt, but we also have some wonky broke hitreg, and you aren't NOT going to leverage that fact if you are playing top end comp play. You take advantage of everything, because you need to. I got no issue with that. I do take issue with some of the disingenuous dismissals of the issue, which I can only assume have to be to protect tender egos or something.

The Space Pope isn't really sure why this is a necessary statement. By such logic, we can just spend all our time accusing anyone who posts with a certain opinion of bias.

Take the Space Pope for instance, he pilots lights mostly, but can use pretty much any weight class well, he finds lights incredibly easy to kill with essentially any weapon and he has posted as much. Now sure, you can accuse the Space Pope of trying to protect his favored class or of being biased somehow, but ultimately the Space Pope is simply offering his point of view.

Which is why he finds it a bit annoying when people constantly have to insert "barbs" in their posts.

Finally, sure, comp players and good light pilots use what they can, but by and large, like almost all players, they would all prefer better hit reg.

TL;DR: The Space Pope respects the fact that a portion of the community finds lights particularly hard to hit, but at the same time, he doesn't feel that means he can't at the same time express his view that they are easy to hit nor does it mean that we must discount one opinion or the other.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 03 April 2015 - 09:33 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 April 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

The OP did say they were shooting him, so I doubt they were disco-d.

And while our Light-Hards try to downplay it (yes hit reg affects all chassis, but it seems to affect Lights far more often, apparently in concert with other factors.... and the FS9 is the current king of damage reduction.) but it's pretty undeniable they bank on it, since you know..if hitreg worked as it should, no one would charge right into the middle of 8 enemy mechs and expect to make it out intact. Of course, they can do it, because all but their esteemed 1% cannot aim.

*rolls eyes*

When I nail a FS9, dead to rights with an ac40, the crosshairs register...and the enemy mech registers... by having armor go to yellow? I hit. Everything says I did. With PP-FLD, so no amount of bunnyhopping and "micro-twisting" should spread the damage. And with 40 damage, whatever section hit should at least be into internals.

But despite the servers showing I hit...obviously, it-s my lack of skill, or the Light Hards abundance of it, that saved him.

SMH

We do have some amazing Light Pilots in this game, no doubt, but we also have some wonky broke hitreg, and you aren't NOT going to leverage that fact if you are playing top end comp play. You take advantage of everything, because you need to. I got no issue with that. I do take issue with some of the disingenuous dismissals of the issue, which I can only assume have to be to protect tender egos or something.

Yeah. It's kinda hard to say it's not happening. When you're shooting at light pilots arrogant enough to dead stop in front of you so they can take the time to kill you with ease.

[Bishop Steiner]

The True Space Pope, on 03 April 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

What matches do you play where a light runs through 8 enemy mechs and doesn't get exploded in 2 seconds?

At the moment, the Space Pope in a light mech generally views it as a bad idea to allow more than one mech to have a decent chance of hitting him in (and that is still a bad idea, however, it is an acceptable or necessary risk given the size of the maps and the fact that a light needs to kill or damage enemy mechs).



The Space Pope isn't really sure why this is a necessary statement. By such logic, we can just spend all our time accusing anyone who posts with a certain opinion of bias.

Take the Space Pope for instance, he pilots lights mostly, but can use pretty much any weight class well, he finds lights incredibly easy to kill with essentially any weapon and he has posted as much. Now sure, you can accuse the Space Pope of trying to protect his favored class or of being biased somehow, but ultimately the Space Pope is simply offering his point of view.

Which is why he finds it a bit annoying when people constantly have to insert "barbs" in their posts.

Finally, sure, comp players and good light pilots use what they can, but by and large, like almost all players, they would all prefer better hit reg.

TL;DR: The Space Pope respects the fact that a portion of the community finds lights particularly hard to hit, but at the same time, he doesn't feel that means he can't at the same time express his view that they are easy to hit nor does it mean that we must discount one opinion or the other.

Or you could simply admit it happens, happens more with Light Mechs, and for whatever abundance of convergent reasons, happens most frequently with the FS9. It just probably doesn't happen quite as often as people claim it does, but a heck of a lot more than our dear TryHard overlords seem to want to admit.

But hey, when I've had the Light pilot stop and type in chat..."WTF?!?!?! Why am I not dead?", It should maybe tell ya something.

But of course, you've never seen it happen, so the hundreds of posts about it are purely form bads.

[Evan20k]

Last night a near stationary firestarter took not one but two alphas from my 86 alpha Direwhale and only had a red-armored ST and CT for it. Anecdotal, I know, but it was one of those moments that just had me going "Really game? REALLY?!".

[Bishop Steiner]

Evan20k, on 03 April 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

Last night a near stationary firestarter took not one but two alphas from my 86 alpha Direwhale and only had a red-armored ST and CT for it. Anecdotal, I know, but it was one of those moments that just had me going "Really game? REALLY?!".

Exactly. It happens. It happens with regularity. I seem to either 1) Hit the Light and pop it, easy peasy, or 2) paper cut the thing all match. Seems like the moment I get a wonky hitreg Light, I know every Light that match is likely going to be an issue.

Conversely, if the first Light seems to be hit "properly" seems like most of the rest follow suit. I've certainly had matches in my Ember where I have been one shotted without warning.....and others where I laughed as I danced on top of Candy Mountain amidst 2/3 or more of the enemy team, with hit indicators going off like mad, and barely any damage showing.

There are certainly other examples in game, from the wonky movement animation of Stormcrows, to the Void-Armor rear torso on my Timber Wolf (which has run exactly 2 pts of armor per location since June.... and almost never gets stripped) to BunnyHopping Jumpers.

But just as certain parties vehemently swore that Ravens were fine, that Spiders were fine, and PGI ended up having to adjust them because *gasp* nope, they weren't, so now, it appears the Firestarter is the benefactor of most frequently borked HitReg.

Or we could all just be bad shots...though I wonder why those Spiders and Death Knells and Locusts and Jenners all take damage so much more consistently..... huh...

[ShinVector]

SolutionCat, on 03 April 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

A lot of light pilots (i pilot Jenner, Spider, FS and panther) have good knowledge of where they get shot and their hit boxes. Armor will get loaded at precisely the correct locations in order to maximize their survivability. Also those hitboxes are really small, lights have high speed movement fast torse twist and the ability to flutter jumpjets. A lot of lights can bring an unexpected amount of firepower to fights and from my experience a Ember can toe to toe a direworlf who is missing armor on any of his three torso locations and win pretty easily.

Lights don't have alot of armour and almost always XL.
If you can compensate for the lag.... You can take them down quickly with precise shots.

Refer to the 7min mark:

[Impossible Wasabi]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 April 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

Or you could simply admit it happens, happens more with Light Mechs, and for whatever abundance of convergent reasons, happens most frequently with the FS9. It just probably doesn't happen quite as often as people claim it does, but a heck of a lot more than our dear TryHard overlords seem to want to admit.

But hey, when I've had the Light pilot stop and type in chat..."WTF?!?!?! Why am I not dead?", It should maybe tell ya something.

But of course, you've never seen it happen, so the hundreds of posts about it are purely form bads.

Again, why all the vitriol? Does it help your argument to constantly try to make this an "us vs. them" debate?

Of course the Space Pope has seen bad hit registration, but he has seen it occur with pretty much every mech in the game. To his recollection the Space Pope has never argued that hit reg for any class of mech is perfect or even satisfactory.

Ultimately, though the Space Pope recognizes there are so many factors involved in bad hit reg that he doesn't generally discount other people's opinions when they disagree with his own.

All the Space Pope is suggesting is that this issue be discussed in a rational manner and that we recognize that most of our views about hit reg are going to be fairly subjective in nature (since we can't exactly empirically verify how hits are registering). Essentially, by this he means you don't have to constantly call people "evil comp overlords" if they disagree with your assessment of hit reg, just like there is no reason to call someone "bad/scrub" if someone feels hit reg is particularly bad.

You say lights are particularly hard to hit because of especially bad hit reg for lights, the Space Pope finds that he can hit lights about as well as any other class of mechs (irregardless of the mech or weapon he uses). That doesn't mean that either of us is wrong in our opinions nor that we can't both express them and more importantly disagreement doesn't have to become a personal matter (again the Space Pope would like to emphasize that he has not posted an attack on your honesty or suggested that you have not experienced what you say you have, but if modern science has taught us anything it is that human memories are not generally ideal for gathering data).

As a side note, the Space Pope still often finds hit reg to be bad, but he finds it bad across the board.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 03 April 2015 - 11:19 AM.