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I Want More Depth In Community Warfare


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#61 Mystere

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 09:14 AM

Here's another bright ( ;)) idea for the attack mode ...

Keep the destruction of the orbital cannon generator as the win condition. But, the battle should not just end there. For dramatic effect, the attackers should either withdraw back to their dropships, or kill the rest of the enemy (at least until the timer runs out). The defenders, on the other hand, have to prevent either of that from happening. Think of it as an opportunity to earn more rewards after the battle has already been won or lost.

Or did I just open up the possibility of another potential source of loud whining: kill farming? :o

#62 Apnu

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 09:21 AM

I just came by to say, like the OP:

I WANT MORE DEPTH IN COMMUNITY WARFARE!

Edited by Apnu, 06 May 2015 - 09:47 AM.


#63 Jetfire

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 09:27 AM

Here is a huge opportunity.

Replace Ghost drops with NPC Mech, Tank, Artillery and Infantry resistance rather than artificial timer delays. Make them fairly challenging but not insane and offer comparable rewards.

#64 Apnu

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 09:50 AM

View PostJetfire, on 06 May 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

Here is a huge opportunity.

Replace Ghost drops with NPC Mech, Tank, Artillery and Infantry resistance rather than artificial timer delays. Make them fairly challenging but not insane and offer comparable rewards.


They're already working on PvE elements, they think its going to be a long complicated process to develop a good AI. Russ' initial comments are really simple like "kill x infantry" and build up to tanks, then finally mechs.

Maybe after all that we can get those things in ghost drops.

Personally I'd love it if we had team PvE options. Imagine dropping against twice your number in AI bots. What a fun challenge that would be.

#65 P5YCO

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 10:04 AM

You know what, they don't need to reinvent the wheel, although some story to CW wouldn't go amiss. But why can't they use elements of the single player queue and mix it up in with the new CW capture maps. In war there would be skirmishes, campaigns to capture a series of resource bases or an enemy depot. Tie it in with a more in depth campaign tree and away we go.

#66 Telmasa

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 10:46 AM

The new map shows that PGI is paying attention, at least. Did you check out all the spawn points? "You get a crater, you get a crater, EVERYONE gets a crater!" with walls that just magically happen to both shield & offer at least two exit routes (through a single gap). :lol:

At least they're improving, I suppose. Just have to settle for the fact it's not in leaps and bounds.

#67 rolly

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 10:52 AM

I've logged in just to bump this topic. This is one of the most important topics that needs some serious addressing and a responsive dialogue from the Devs. (Here's hoping)

Could PGI throw us a bone on, given how the Tukkayid train wreck went, and the OP's post. What will the next steps be to adjust the next phase? How soon after the revision (again) of Mechlab will this be addressed? How concrete is this?

#68 crashlogic

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 12:40 PM

I always wondered why not make the whole game CW? The real intrigue of cw is not twelve man team drops....I mea tha works fin for people without jobs or interests beyond the game, but I PUG because I like battletech, I have an hour or three to play games from time to time, ad its hard to find mini's gamers who play BT anymore. So I don't have the time to invest in a unit or a regular group. That's not gonna change.
But I do like the Idea of a interactive MW universe, where the outcomes of fights mean something in he larger scheme of things. So why not have each PUG match in the public queue shunt into a fight on a cw planet? So the battle for a planet could be hundreds of Public matches, each outcome showing a result. I could then watch the overall politics change on the CW map.
The advantage reward for forming units and groups is that you get to pick your battles...

#69 MischiefSC

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 04:28 PM

I don't even have the energy left to laugh bitterly at the hope of a deeper, more interesting CW.

You'll get tiny, incremental additions of broken mechanics to 'offset' the existing broken mechanics. Everything that is will continue to be, perhaps with tiny, largely irrelevant tweaks. If any tweak breaks it worse it will remain unchanged until another, bigger, more convoluted tweak that will make it worse in the opposite direction will be introduced to 'fix' it.

CW doesn't warrant more depth apparently. Then it wouldn't be nearly casual enough. If worlds/faction membership/winning or losing meant something then people would cry and leave is the fear and those people are the bulk casuals who also happily blow money on terrible mechs they'll never play.

There are times I suspect that the best way to ensure something will never exist in MW:O is to make an intelligent, well rationed and well worded forum post about it. Especially if it's a good suggestion.

#70 Yokaiko

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 06:20 PM

Depth should start with Repair/Rearm

Perma-contracts R/R is paid by the house

Then you scale down by percentage to one week being 0%, Then give bonuses (cheaper consumables?) by House rank.

Owning planets gives, X amount of C-bill to the unit coffers, and that can be used to pro-rate consumables and help with R/R for the unit, you could even rank the Units, for example my unit rolls on 2 week contracts but we always come back to a couple places as people get sick of only playing with IS or Clan toys.

Allow bidding by loyalists to hire mercs, these can be in either loyalty, or C-bill or planets.

Enable mixed drop decks for units 2 week or less contracts.


At least as a base level that is something to work with.

#71 Mirkk Defwode

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 08:26 AM

View PostYokaiko, on 06 May 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

Depth should start with Repair/Rearm

Perma-contracts R/R is paid by the house

Then you scale down by percentage to one week being 0%, Then give bonuses (cheaper consumables?) by House rank.

Owning planets gives, X amount of C-bill to the unit coffers, and that can be used to pro-rate consumables and help with R/R for the unit, you could even rank the Units, for example my unit rolls on 2 week contracts but we always come back to a couple places as people get sick of only playing with IS or Clan toys.

Allow bidding by loyalists to hire mercs, these can be in either loyalty, or C-bill or planets.

Enable mixed drop decks for units 2 week or less contracts.


At least as a base level that is something to work with.


I'd add in salvage rights from battles won awarding tokens. The tokens count toward the opposing macro-factions (Inner Sphere vs Clan) then allow you to take a mech from an opposing faction. If we weren't reliant on our own personally owned mech stable I'd take that as far as having Factional Mechs included as part of the token system. IE Kurita mechs being: Panther, Dragon, Hatamoto-Chi, etc...Then everyone has access to Star League Era mechs like the Orion, Crab, King Crab...and other ubiquitous chassis for the Inner Sphere and clans. I don't think we have quite enough balance between all the factions to dig down that deep yet but it'd be an element of factional depth.

The tokens would be stored on the unit level and are expended if the mech is taken into battle and destroyed. If the mech is taken into battle and survives you get to keep the token and use it another day.

Take the factional loyalty into account and you could add a mech stable for units with discounts to buy mechs from the faction you're currently contracted with at a discounted rate based on the average faction loyalty of your unit members (this would make it so all unit members contribute) and the black market system does is based on neighboring factions mech capabilities.

#72 Linkin

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 01:17 PM

Lots of good points and ideas. I would like to say yes to more depth, I've got my floaties on, I'm ready!

#73 rolly

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 02:21 PM

Well I have no choice but to hope for more depth. I just looked at MW:LL and its sad to see the way its gone. Not much out there in the desert of mech-like armored combat.

#74 Caustic Canid

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 05:36 PM

View PostMystere, on 06 May 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:


Yes, I am leaning towards a need for a "surrender" or "withdrawal" mechanic. The problem though is how to make such a thing not prone to abuse.


Only allow players to vote once they have lost 2 of their 4 mechs. It would take 8/12 votes to surrender. If 2/3rd's majority is not reached, the game continues. Once 2/3rd's IS reached, the game awards the win to the other team and everyone is allowed to re-queue.

#75 oldradagast

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 05:11 AM

View PostMystere, on 02 April 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:


It was easy to implement. It's also much much better than a scheme that simply uses the win/loss ratio to determine planet ownership. That would have been really terrible.



So true. And I blame this:

Posted Image


Participation trophies have nothing to do with it.

Game developers discovered - much like Hollywood directors - that they can replace complex and interesting game design (or stories) with shiny cut scenes and special effects and people will still buy it. Same idea as replacing a story in a movie with special effects.

That being said, there are games out there with reasonable complex levels even today. Or, even if the levels don't have as many rooms, you can do a lot more in each room since the game is truly 3D, unlike the games in the 1990's (DOOM, etc.) which were not. Batman: Arkham City comes to mind as an example.

As for CW, don't get your hopes up. As long as enough people keep paying and shelling out money for the next mech, they don't need to make it more complicated. It can still be a stale fight over that generator, over and over again, until the stars fall out of the heavens, with zero depth and no purpose to any of it. Same as how Hollywood can sell movies that are nothing but special effects, bad acting, and horrible stories - people buy it.

Edited by oldradagast, 10 May 2015 - 05:12 AM.


#76 vivoune

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 01:32 PM

New player here. I can cope with the abnoxiously impenetrable UI (thanks to 3rd party websites that does the devs job), I can deal with the complete lack of explaination to anyting (thanks to the various community guides that dare to teach a tad past the developper's wasd to move tutorial), I can buy in the incredibly high priced mechs every now and then if that's what it takes to support a good mechwarrior game but boy am I so disapointed with how shallow and e-sport oriented MWO is.

Going through all the trouble and effort to develop all these mechs only to place them in a generic uninspired team death-match is such an incredible waste. The possibilities in term of designs is as astronomous as is this game's potential. Why being so bolt on to such short "matches" and tiny maps...

Please... Bring us much bigger maps, much longer matches, much more variety in terms of gameplay and objectives. The frustration about MWO is only as grand as its potential seem to be ignored. sad face.

#77 xX PUG Xx

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 03:44 PM

The TL:DR version (apologies it's late and I haven't figured out how to do "spoilers" on this forum)

· All game modes should be incorporated into “Community Warfare”
· Solo / Group players should be able to choose which queue they play in:

o 4 vs. 4 solo only

o 4 vs. 4 mixed solo/group (1 – 4 players in a group)

o 12 vs. 12 with a max group size of 8 (1 – 8 players in a group)

o “Standard” Community Warfare drop with any combination of group size. (1 – 12 players in a group)




· Game mode – assault, conquest, skirmish, counter attack, attack – should be determined by the game as is necessary for the stage of the planetary conflict.
· Loyalist players and Units should have an emphasis placed on increased Loyalty Point rewards, perhaps with a separate Loyalty Reward Tree.
· Mercenary Units / Lone Wolf players should have an emphasis placed on CBill earnings on a match per match basis, with bonuses paid for longer contracts.
· Loyalist players and Units should earn a territorial reward, by means of a “pot” determined by the amount of planets or planetary value held by their chosen House.
· Military High Command (PGI controlled) for each House designates Attack / Defend lanes for Loyalist players and Units.
· MRBC Contract Board generates individual contracts based on planets under attack; these can have increased / decreased rewards depending on population of given Factions in contest of the planet.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I replied to a thread on the which I initially wrote off as another solo player whining that he had been stomped by a large premade group in CW and that he should either accept that CW is engineered for just such premade groups or he should find a way to up his game to be able to compete in the “big kids pool” environment of CW if he chose to play solo there.

However it then got me thinking, what could be done to “include” as much of the player base (the Community) into the Community Warfare section of the game? In turn providing a good amount of depth to the whole game and hopefully a more involving aspect to the MechWarrior experience.

At present the solo and group queues are simply meaningless beyond grinding for CBills and XP, they have no real impact on the “Meta” game that I feel should be the REAL reason for playing with gigantic walking avatars of war. The Battletech universe has as much depth and character as anything JRR Tolkien envisioned and has the potential to give us a hugely diverse and rewarding background to immerse ourselves into.

I touched on my belief that EVERY game played in the online lobbies (with the exception of Private lobbies) should affect the Universe we are fighting in, each game should contribute to the overall Community Warfare map and each player should feel engaged and essential to the success of their chosen Faction. Therefore there would be no Solo/Public queues, only Community Warfare and the combat missions attached to the various planets, how this would affect the overall conquest or defence of the planet I have not worked out and would require a programmer/developer to figure out the technical aspects.

Each game mode and map has the potential to be used for niches in the CW experience; for example the Conquest mechanic has many possible applications, while the full game mode could easily be “tweaked” to accommodate a scouting role in Community Warfare. To expand further on this it could be possible to allocate certain team size caps to certain mission types, giving solo players (and new players) somewhere to get their feet wet and learn the ropes.

Contracts (game modes) available to Solo players, this could encompass Lone Wolves also
· Solo only - 4 ‘Mech small scale combat and scouting missions, Skirmish and Conquest on the smaller maps such as River City, Forest Colony and Canyon Network.
Lower flat rates for LP and CBill payments, with higher modifiers for team based in-game actions to emphasis the lower risk involved but encourage engagement and teamwork.
· Small group and Solo – same as above but with slightly better rewards, encourages Lance sized groups to play and co-ordinate. Possibly with the DropShip reinforcements added and min/max tonnage limit.
Use current rates for LP and CBill payments for game win/loss and in-game actions, this is the introduction to the “Big Leagues”; overall the payments should be slightly higher [5%] than the solo only queue.
· Up to Demi-Company sized groups (max group size 8) in Company (12 ‘Mechs) combat operations – Assault, Skirmish, Counter Attack/Defend and Attack (current CW modes).
LP/CBill payments set higher again [5%] with high modifiers for combat based in-game actions to reward combat and co-ordinated gameplay.

Contracts (game modes) available to groups
2 - 4 players

· Skirmish and Conquest in the Small Group/Solo queue
LP/CBill rewards for completion of the contract should be [5-10%] higher than the Solo player rewards, reflecting the higher risk/reward factor for Groups entering into battle with an unknown players alongside them. Modifiers for in-game actions set at current levels.

2-12 players (inclusive of group sizes 2 – 4)

· Assault, Skirmish, Counter Attack/Defend and Attack (current CW modes)
LP/CBill rewards [10-15%] for completion of contract/mission higher than Solo player, modifiers for in-game actions set at current levels.

I believe this would make only 8 queues, 4 for attacking a planet and 4 for defending, multiplied by how ever many planets are up for contention. Therefore wait times should be much lower since every player is included in the Community Warfare experience but still has the choice of what level they wish to play at;

· The soloist can stick to the smaller scale engagements but still feel as though they are contributing and will likely be earning slightly more CBills than they presently do in the Solo queues, while earning LP to go toward the Faction based rewards.

NB – as a side note this particular queue could be broken down further to allow for new players to the game, perhaps having a separate queue mechanic to keep the “Cadets” from facing seasoned Veterans until they have their 25 battles under their Neurohelmets. As well as giving them the flexibility to venture into Company (12 ‘Mech) group queues if they so desire.

· The smaller Units have the choice of where and how they commit their time and energy; while either giving themselves an opportunity of fighting on equal terms with an opponent or taking the chance of going into a Company drop against a possibly larger grouped enemy team. CBill and LP earnings will be on par with current levels, perhaps slightly higher.
· Likewise the larger Units can choose how to use their forces, engage in the smaller scale fights and perhaps help to tip the balance on the planet or fully commit to Company sized engagements in the hope of overwhelming their opponents attack/defence.
One thing that was mentioned was the ability for players to simply jump in and play a random game without worrying about the tactical consequences, a “throw away” game mode not unlike what unfortunately makes up the majority of the gameplay at present.

Further down the road of development it may be good to have something like a Solaris, 1 vs.1 up to 8 vs.8 game mode; something there has been a large calling for over the years. This could provide the side show games for some stress relief if required but I think the layout above would provide enough variety to cater for everyone’s taste.

The remaining question would be; what percentage does each game mode attribute to the overall defence/conquest of a planet? This I would leave to the developers, as it would undoubtedly require many tweaks to get the right ratio.

It may even be that, given the possible implementation of logistics and economy in the long run, different game modes (missions) could have different consequences on different planets. This would have to be something for future discussion and exploration but I do feel the above layout provides some flexibility to the developers to explore this option.

The next question would be; how does which Faction a player chooses affect Contracts and what rewards are available from them?

The easiest answer for the developers at this stage would be to scrap the Mercenary / Lone Wolf Factions and simply have players choose between Clan and House. This may cause a bit on an upset but it would eliminate a whole quagmire of programming issues.

However…..

I believe there could be some difference in how a Loyalist is rewarded versus a Mercenary or Lone Wolf and below I have outlined an idea I came up with. Essentially it revolves around boosts to either LP or CBill rewards, the Loyalists (House/Clan players) are rewarded for their loyalty by increased LP rewards (or perhaps even have a separate LP rewards tree with shorter gaps or higher rewards per level/more levels). Mercs/Lone Wolves are rewarded through increased CBill income but lower LP rewards or it might even be regulated by having a separate LP “tree” for the Mercs/Lone Wolves with slightly longer LP gaps between rewards or lower rewards per level.

Loyalists are essentially the line Units of the main Factions, honour and loyalty bound to the chosen House or Clan. As such they do not have the freedom to attack planets at will and are subject to the desires and strategic whims of their Liege Lord or Khan. However their emphasis would be in the ability to take planets in stewardship for their Houses, gaining rewards based on ownership and therefore boosting CBill earnings by implementation of bonuses per planet owned. This could be given as a Faction wide payment, the more planets a Faction holds the larger the “pot” and therefore the larger a share goes to the individual players, therefore making it fairer on the smaller units that stand less of a chance in “tagging” planets.

However Mercenaries and Lone Wolves would “survive” financially by taking salvage and contract completion bonuses, therefore the emphasis for this group would be on completion of missions and ‘Mech kills.

How would Contracts (games) be generated and how would it be possible to differentiate between the types available to players.

Here is an example that I thought up;

The House Liao CCAF High Command (controlled by PGI’s in-game algorithm) generates an “Attack” combat action against a planet on the House Davion border, which shows in the normal way on the Faction screen for the Loyalist units. In turn it also generates a series of Solo, Small Group, Demi-Company and Company (as listed above) “attack” and “defence” contracts for this planet on an “MRBC Contracts Board” for use by all Lone Wolf players and Mercenary Units. These would not be based on the game “mode” (attack, counter attack, etc.) but as a broad based contract for combat operations in support of one House or the other; thus adding a little “unknown” element to the drops and hopefully forcing a little diversity into players’ drop decks.

This would be where Lone Wolves and Mercenary Units would be able to choose the length of their contracts;
· Single drop – [0%] LP boost – [1%] CBill boost
· 1 day defence/attack – [1%] LP boost – [2%] CBill boost
· 3 day defence/attack – [2%] LP boost – [4%] CBill boost
· 7 day defence/attack – [5%] LP boost – [7.5%] CBill boost
· 14 day defence/attack – [7.5%] LP boost – [15%] CBill boost

Loyalist Units are already receiving a 15% boost on LP rewards, the above incremental increase in LP rewards will not allow the Lone Wolves / Mercenary Units to earn as much LP as the Loyalists but the CBill rewards would plateau at 15%, therefore giving an emphasis to the “soldier-for-hire” choice of Lone Wolves and Mercenaries.

Now obviously the Lone Wolves and Mercenaries are unable to hold (or “tag”) the planet, this would be done by the most successful Loyalist unit; so their “reward” for fighting for Liao will come from the drop by drop bonuses. The Loyalist units will earn less in the short term but the rewards will even out or possibly be higher with successfully capturing a world; the emphasis for them being taking territory for their chosen House.

I am not mathematically minded, therefore it would take someone else to fully work out the figures but I think by now you get my idea (hopefully).

#78 xX PUG Xx

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 12:01 PM

Anyone got any other decent ideas?

Or are we going to be stuck with shallow "CW is dead is dead because 'insert whiney reason with no constructive way to combat or improve it here" threads?

C'mon people I would prefer to keep the constructive and positive threads alive than see another 50 started that rehash the same lopsided and unhelpful spam.

*edit*

Guess not, GGclose *sigh*

Edited by xX PUG Xx, 12 May 2015 - 11:01 PM.


#79 Telmasa

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 12:14 AM

The only good idea I can think of at this point is to add "player-created-content" (mechs? maps? balancing? etc.) as part of PGI's development process, so they can spend the time focusing on things like creating an in-depth CW experience despite being a limited number of human beings with only so many hours in a day.

(Mind you, I don't mean give players the power - have a couple folks tasked to overlording the hordes of us opinionated neckbeards - just make use of the community to get things *done* instead of taking it all upon themselves, y'know?)

Edited by Telmasa, 13 May 2015 - 12:14 AM.


#80 Thorqemada

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 12:17 AM

Easy solution - PGI will soon™ release the "Grand Canyon" Map ;)

Lets see what "Scouting Missions" will do CW - potentially a game mode that may offer more Mech to Mech combat...

Edited by Thorqemada, 13 May 2015 - 12:20 AM.






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