73 replies to this topic

[LT. HARDCASE]

Huginn, Jester are soon to be in my stables.

Maybe an Ember? I dunno if I shouldn't just buy regular variants.

[Curccu]

Appogee, on 03 April 2015 - 03:54 AM, said:

Frankly, I don't trust PGI not to nerf the aggressive quirks like Huggins' ... and I don't like spending money on the basis of advantages that can be so easily taken away.

I assume this is what people will be running on it: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6280832caf34fef

I think a 4SRM4 Oxide would be more potent at the same tonnage, though.

Well Oxide can SRM out dps Huggin a bit but...
It's one huge CT with legs
it doesn't jump

I have them both, I love them both, but by my experience with those two I think Huggin is better.

[Arkadash]

Thanks, but WHERE DAT CRAB SALE?

[MikeBend]

Appogee, on 03 April 2015 - 03:29 AM, said:

What's the attraction of a Huginn?

I'm looking at the hard points and theory-crafting in Smurfys, but I can't see any combination that another Light Mech doesn't do better.

Oh God, this goes straight to golden quotes.

[l3elthaz0r]

Is the Griffin hero a good investment?

[Appogee]

MikeBend, on 03 April 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:

Oh God, this goes straight to golden quotes.

Oxide with quirks does 13.2 damage per second with SRM4s.

Raven with quirks does 8.61 damage per second with SRM4s.

But hey, you laugh it up, golden quote guy.

[Appogee]

l3elthaz0r, on 03 April 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

Is the Griffin hero a good investment?

Griffin 3M is good for SRM splatting. But the Hero is just an energy boat ... nothing in particular to commend it IMHO.

[Big Tin Man]

Appogee, on 03 April 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Oxide with quirks does 13.2 damage per second with SRM4s.

Raven with quirks does 8.61 damage per second with SRM4s.

But hey, you laugh it up, golden quote guy.

Huh?

Huggin:

25% missile cooldown + 25% srm 4 cooldown + 10% srm 4 cooldown module = 1.2 seconds recycle time
8.6 dmg / 1.2 seconds = 7.1667 dps PER SRM4
7.1667dps/launcher * 2 launchers = 14.333 dps for the huggin (ignoring MG's)
With 4 MG's you get 3.2 dps more, for a total of 17.53 dps, but people often drop the MG's for more srm ammo or jump jets.

Oxide:
7.5% missle cooldown + 7.5% srm 4 cooldown + 10% srm 4 cooldown mudule = 2.25 seconds recycle time
8.6 dmg / 2.25 seconds = 3.82 dps PER SRM 4
3.82 dps/launcher* 4 launchers = 15.29 dps for the Oxide

The oxide wins on paper in a strict SRM battle, but where the oxide fails is in heat and missile spread. Firing 4 srm4's at once will trigger ghost heat, and the spread on 4 srm4 is huge. Yes, you can successfully chain fire two groups of two and make it work, but without a marco or amazing fire control, you're gonna screw it up. Huggin also gets better missile range quriks.

The oxide is also further penalized by carrying an extra 4 tons of SRM launchers, which on the huggin is better served as carrying ammo, armor, jump jets, or a larger engine.

If that doesn't convince you, just look at these two very common and compairable builds:

Huggin--2 srm4 (5 tons ammo), 4 MG (1 ton ammo), 1 JJ, XL 280, 232 armor
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3aaae341c3b18f4
Oxide--4 srm4 (4.5 tons ammo) XL 280, 232 armor
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f4c6ade7d582bd7

Now who do you want to ride with? The huggin with more DPS (if you equip MG's), jump jets, better hitboxes, better torso twist (120* for huggin, 110 for oxide) more ammo, better range and better heat management to extend the fight or the Oxide that can deliver a better alpha?

There's a reason you don't see oxides very often. The huggin outclasses it in every way.

Edited by Big Tin Man, 03 April 2015 - 10:39 AM.

[Soy]

Thanks for doing this sale a week after I bought Heavy Metal, Jester, and St. Ives' Blue.

Oh well, I guess I can dump my Death's Knell for Anansi and truly complete my pay to lose dropdeck.

[Smoked]

l3elthaz0r, on 03 April 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

Is the Griffin hero a good investment?

I think it's worth it. 900 damage first battle. 23 battles to get it mastered and 3.2 kdr and I am just an average player. Something magical about a medium that goes 100 kph, can jump and shoot 6 medium lasers.

[Appogee]

Big Tin Man, on 03 April 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

calculations

Not sure where you are getting those DPS numbers from, but they are totally at odds with what's listed on Smurfys. Here are the calculations using Smurfy data...

Huggin's 2SRM4s do base DPS of 5.74. Its quirk of faster 50% cooldown creates a total of DPS of 11.48. Its 4MGs do a combined 3.2 DPS. That's a total of 14.68 DPS - if you can hold those MGs consistently dead on target.

Oxide's 4SRM4s do 11.48 DPS. It's quirk of 15% cooldown brings its total DPS to 13.2 DPS. But all 4of those SRM4s hit at once, and unlike the Huginn, you don't need to maintain any hitscan reticle on the target, you can simply salvo and turn away.

(I've not added the effect of a SRM4 module into either of the above as a lot of players don't want to spend 3M CBills on that.)


EDIT: fixed a miscalculation in the the Huggin DPS.

So Oxide has 1.4 DPS less than Huginn, but it can damage more in one strike and can spread damage better. It also benefits from a smaller target profile. However, Huginn has Jump Jets, which could help spread damage and it also has 10% greater SRM4 range (though this would likely mean several of the missiles won't hit against moving targets at the greater range).



In any case, I went and bought a Huggin. So far I am enjoying it, for the reasons that I also enjoy playing my Oxide. After a scant 7 matches the Huginn's kds is roughly the same (2.2) as my Oxide, in which I've played 43 matches.

I may swap the Huginn's MGs for more SRM ammo, which will bring the DPS and critting capability down quite a bit. I'd expect its damage per match to go up, but its kill/death ratio to worsen.

Edited by Appogee, 03 April 2015 - 02:18 PM.

[Trainee]

I appreciate the sale. (And here it comes), but please grab someone who isn't colorblind to choose what is on sale. Those colors must be the least purchased by far. You did manage to pry some MC out of me for a camo pattern though.

p.s. I like purple.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Jump Jet focused sale? This has to mean that PGI is fixing Jump Jets soon, right?

[Twilight Fenrir]

Appogee, on 03 April 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

Not sure where you are getting those DPS numbers from, but they are totally at odds with what's listed on Smurfys. Here are the calculations using Smurfy data...

Huggin's 2SRM4s do base DPS of 5.74. Its quirk of faster 50% cooldown creates a total of DPS of 8.61. Its 4MGs do a combined 3.2 DPS. That's a total of 11.81 DPS - if you can hold those MGs consistently dead on target.

Oxide's 4SRM4s do 11.48 DPS. It's quirk of 15% cooldown brings its total DPS to 13.2 DPS. Further, you don't need to maintain any hitscan reticle on the target to do that DPS, you can salve and twist away.

So Oxide has the higher DPS, and it can spread damage better. It also has a smaller target profile.

However, Oxide lacks the Huginn's Jump Jets, which I agree are useful, and which I could suppose be exploited to also spread damage, until the Jump Jet exploit gets fixed. Huginn also has 10% greater SRM4 range, though this would likely mean several of the missile salvo won't hit against moving targets.



In any case, I went and bought a Huggin. So far I am enjoying it, for the reasons that I also enjoy playing my Oxide. After a scant 7 matches the Huginn's kds is roughly the same (2.2) as my Oxide, in which I've played 43 matches.

I may swap the Huginn's MGs for more SRM ammo, which will bring the DPS and critting capability down quite a bit. I'd expect its damage per match to go up, but its kill/death ratio to worsen.

Smurfy's DPS is the Max SUSTAINABLE DPS. It takes heat into consideration. That is the maximum damage per second you can put out, without overheating. With the Hugin, you rush in, spam 'till you overheat (with override) and run away to cool down, then come back and jump the next poor *******.

It also doesn't take into account any of the quirks of the mechs. So, Big Tin Man's math is spot on.

It is, admittedly, a matter of preference. I have both an Oxide, and a Hugin, and I love them both. But they do different things for me. I load my Oxide with SSRMs, and go light-hunting. My Hugin is for murdering assaults.

ArchMage Sparrowhawk, on 03 April 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

Jump Jet focused sale? This has to mean that PGI is fixing Jump Jets soon, right?

I doubt it I think it's just a play on words... to spring, to jump... But, we can dream... I miss the days when the 5 jump jets on my Heavy Metal let me actually jump on top of a building, or escape in a pinch...

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 03 April 2015 - 01:58 PM.

[Appogee]

Twilight Fenrir, on 03 April 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

Smurfy's DPS is the Max SUSTAINABLE DPS. It takes heat into consideration.

No it doesn't. In fact Smurfy uses the same base numbers that Big Tin Man used - 2.87 DPS per SRM4 launcher and 3.2DPS for the 4MGs.

But I went wrong where I calculated the increase in DPS through its 50% quirk. I will fix this in the post above.

[Big Tin Man]

Appogee, on 03 April 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

(incorrect math) math now fixed

All of my information came out of smurfy. Do the math yourself and check me.

Single SRM 4 base damage = 8.6
Single SRM 4 base cooldown = 3 seconds.
Single SRM 4 base DPS = 8.6/3 = 2.87 DPS

Smurfy's mechlab does not account for quriks, and yes it does calculate DPS in there as sustained DPS, not max DPS which is what we are discussing. This is why if you drop some ammo in the oxide build I provided above and add heat sinks, DPS improves.

If we can agree that the Huggin has a 50% cooldown reduction on SRM4, we have this:

Single SRM 4 base damage = 8.6
Single SRM 4 quriked cooldown = 3 seconds * 0.5 = 1.5
Single SRM 4 quirked DPS = 8.6/1.5 = 5.73 DPS

For huggin, two quirked SRM 4 = 2 * 5.73 DPS = 11.46.

DPS calculations do not scale as straight percentage multipliers. A 50% decrease in firing rate results in a 100% increase in DPS, not a 50% increase in DPS as you had stated.

Edited by Big Tin Man, 03 April 2015 - 02:23 PM.

[Appogee]

Big Tin Man, on 03 April 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

DPS calculations do not scale as straight percentage multipliers. A 50% decrease in firing rate results in a 100% increase in DPS, not a 50% increase in DPS as you had stated.

Yes. In fact I was fixing that error in my earlier post while you were posting the above.

Thanks for clarifying the math.

[Big Tin Man]

Appogee, on 03 April 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

Yes. In fact I was fixing that error in my earlier post while you were posting the above. Thanks for clarifying the math.

NP, now get a LV5 SRM4 cooldown module to hit the DPS I had listed in my first post. MOAR MISSLES!

P.S. Your oxide math is also incorrect. Should be 13.49 dps. The oxide does deliver a bigger alpha, but imho that many srm's fired at once spread too much and makes too much heat since you trigger ghost heat at 4. Singe SRM 4's seem to travel in tighter packs. My opinion.

[Appogee]

Big Tin Man, on 03 April 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

Singe SRM 4's seem to travel in tighter packs. My opinion.

I noticed this when I was testing builds on the Huginn earlier tonight, actually ... much looser missile grouping. It made me wish I had Artemis on the Oxide (not that I can afford the tonnage).

I have a feeling PGI loosened the spread of SRM4s fairly significantly sometime in the past few months.

Edited by Appogee, 03 April 2015 - 03:04 PM.

[Nightshade24]

Appogee, on 03 April 2015 - 03:29 AM, said:

What's the attraction of a Huginn?

I'm looking at the hard points and theory-crafting in Smurfys, but I can't see any combination that another Light Mech doesn't do better.

main attraction...

As a Light Mech...

It has 4 machine guns. Making it tied with machine gun firepower with...
Kitfox, Spider, Ember, Locust 1V.

Hardpoints:


Spider: 1E, 4B, 6 JJ
Locust 1V: 1E, 4B, (fast)
Ember: 4E, 4B.


It also has 2 missile hardpoints. Making it one of the main missile mechs of the lights, other challangers are...

Locust: 2E, 2M or 1E, 4M. (has issues utilizing)
commando: 1E, 3M
Jenner: 4E, 2M or 4M
Ravens (mentioning bellow)



HOWEVER this is the only light with mix ballistic missiles.
This combo can put the 4 deadly machine guns with the 2 hot SRM missiles. This gives it an edge over the jenner variants with 4E, 2M or so.

This is a deadly unique combo and no other light mech can copy it's build. And substituting stuff just results into something completely different with different advantages.


Compared to ravens...

Raven 3L: 2M, 3E, ECM
Raven 4X: 2E, 2B, 1M. 5 JJ

It's a kinda mix mash.

It has 2 missiles which the raven 3L can do.
and it has 2 jumpjets which raven 4X do better.

BUT it has 4 ballistics better then some long mechs. and has 2 Missiles.

Now it also atm fires those missiles quite good in quirks and even at bad T1 quirks, if it has any it has a decent advantage.


It's a good mech and it's my fave. I love all ravens