231 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 April 2015 - 05:34 AM, said:

Um I have a 92 point Alpha Using the HP for the intended Weapons... Just food for thought.

On an Assault Mech.

And that Alpha would not be pinpoint,
It is VERY hot,
And you are giving up speed.

I like that build, but I do not believe your Atlas is the problem people have with AlphaWarrior.

[Hotthedd]

Escef, on 07 April 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

What I think is that you don't quite know what a captive audience is.

They had us in cages.

They said we could have cake if we figured out ghost heat.

[Joseph Mallan]

Hotthedd, on 07 April 2015 - 06:05 AM, said:

On an Assault Mech.

And that Alpha would not be pinpoint,
It is VERY hot,
And you are giving up speed.

I like that build, but I do not believe your Atlas is the problem people have with AlphaWarrior.

They should. I can smoke quite a few pilots and the full range of Mechs and Omnis. I am not giving up anything as an Atlas is meant to have a 300 rate engine. As for Heat... Its a bit hot but it makes up for it by being quite a heavy hammer.

So the complaint isn't the power of the Alpha but the accuracy. I have been an advocate of adding a CoF to Alpha Strikes so the more weapons you fire the less accurate your damage.

[Hotthedd]

I agree they should. At least 100 ton Assault mechs should.

When I say "giving up speed", I mean as relative to the game, not relative to a 100 ton assault mech. In order to deliver your Alpha strike, you would have to have gotten yourself in a pretty good position, or the enemy would have to have made a mistake.

Brawler Assaults SHOULD pack a punch like that, just not pinpoint, and not without the trade-offs inherent in the game.

Unfortunately we are seeing large pinpoint Alpha stikes from extreme ranges, and without too much in the way of trade-offs.

These don't have to kill a mech, but ANY hit by them effectively cripples most mechs before they can get into range.

[xImmortalx]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 April 2015 - 06:10 AM, said:

They should. I can smoke quite a few pilots and the full range of Mechs and Omnis. I am not giving up anything as an Atlas is meant to have a 300 rate engine. As for Heat... Its a bit hot but it makes up for it by being quite a heavy hammer.

So the complaint isn't the power of the Alpha but the accuracy. I have been an advocate of adding a CoF to Alpha Strikes so the more weapons you fire the less accurate your damage.

Anecdotes are not evidence. Everyone here has killed multiple mechs in strange configs and we all realize it's more of a statement on the quality of the opposing team than the quality of the config. Yes that mech can be monstrous in the right conditions but those "right conditions" are very specific. Catching LRM Warhawks/Dires with their pants down doesn't count.

Plus using that specific config as an example is not a great argument for convergence because of the different projectile travel speeds and SRM spread. A 100 tonner coming straight at you doesn't count.

[Widowmaker1981]

The thing is this:

Being exposed to enemy fire is BAD. Armour is not infinite, does not regenerate and you do not respawn. Thus, pilots will always seek out the most damage they can do in one burst, so they can peek from behind cover and retreat ASAP, in the hopes of doing dmg but taking none (winning the trade). If you reduce the maximum this amount of damage can be, they will go right up to the new limit. If this new limit is so low that any mech can get enough weapons to reach it easily (like with a 30 point heatscale) it completely removes the point of energy based assault mechs - if you can fire the same alpha with a 55 tonner and move twice as fast and be able to jump, why would you ever play the slow lumbering assault, what do you gain? Speed >>>> armour for survivability..

[Joseph Mallan]

xImmortalx, on 07 April 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

Anecdotes are not evidence. Everyone here has killed multiple mechs in strange configs and we all realize it's more of a statement on the quality of the opposing team than the quality of the config. Yes that mech can be monstrous in the right conditions but those "right conditions" are very specific. Catching LRM Warhawks/Dires with their pants down doesn't count.

Plus using that specific config as an example is not a great argument for convergence because of the different projectile travel speeds and SRM spread. A 100 tonner coming straight at you doesn't count.

You are right of course, But I don't hunt LRM Dires I fight everything and Yes I am a close range brawler. It is a perfect argument Against convergence as the crying about convergence begins at 30 damage and my Build throws 3x that.

Also an AC20 and 4 Mediums is pretty pin point.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 07 April 2015 - 06:39 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

I think a lot of what gets suggested are good ideas.

Now people say PGI are set in their ways, and unwilling to shift and this is very true.

But I'm left feeling they won't shift, not because they're unwilling, but incapable, of implementing alot of the better idea's players come up with, whether its down to time money, or ability, is pure conjecture.

Two examples of talk and presentation being one thing, and the end result being far wide of the mark, that I can put out there are.

The four pillars of the games developement
and CW.

cdlord and others come up with great ideas over the years, but I always get the impression that they present what they would like, without taking into concideration PGI's capabilities.

I've ranted and raged and over the years been extremely pissed at they way this games been developed, but the bottom line is I'm glad its here, I can get my battletech fix without having to beg and badger my old gaming friends to come around for old times sake, and then spend two hours dusting off the ral partha minatures

Edited by Cathy, 07 April 2015 - 06:38 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Hotthedd, on 07 April 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

I agree they should. At least 100 ton Assault mechs should.

When I say "giving up speed", I mean as relative to the game, not relative to a 100 ton assault mech. In order to deliver your Alpha strike, you would have to have gotten yourself in a pretty good position, or the enemy would have to have made a mistake.

Brawler Assaults SHOULD pack a punch like that, just not pinpoint, and not without the trade-offs inherent in the game.

Unfortunately we are seeing large pinpoint Alpha stikes from extreme ranges, and without too much in the way of trade-offs.

These don't have to kill a mech, but ANY hit by them effectively cripples most mechs before they can get into range.

This is how sniping is supposed to work though. I don't see a problem with that. Just like if you turn a corner and see my Atlas, If you leave yourself exposed and get sniped you got what you deserve.

[Hotthedd]

I've never seen a sniper firing multiple weapons simultaneously AND all of them hitting the same section of his target.

[C E Dwyer]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 April 2015 - 05:34 AM, said:

Um I have a 92 point Alpha Using the HP for the intended Weapons... Just food for thought.

I thought one of the intended hard points was for an LRM 20

[Joseph Mallan]

Cathy, on 07 April 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

I thought one of the intended hard points was for an LRM 20

Goodness Yes it is! I've used it with 3 or 4 SRMs for so long... Don't get old! Hearing is the first thing to go... Or was it Eye sight? Oh I don't remember now. Is it time for my nap?

Hotthedd, on 07 April 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

I've never seen a sniper firing multiple weapons simultaneously AND all of them hitting the same section of his target.

A true point but that is a Human sniper This is a giant robot with the ability to fire multiple weapons at once.

[DaZur]

I read these forums sometimes and wonder what game everyone else is playing?

I must be a green, wet-behind-the-ear newb or something... I have not yet to date had a single flipping incident where I felt overwhelmed by a player either boating or utilizing a massive PPD alpha.

Oh, I've seen them... been hit by them... taken damage... been killed, absolutely.

But I have no recollection where I slammed my fists down in a fit of rage, shook my fist at the sky and damned the player for using a cheese build.

I see it as yet another challenge to overcome with tactics and understanding my enemies strengths and weaknesses.... Not another game-breaking mechanic to nerf into the ground because they present an imposing challenge...

I guess I'm too old school to not appreciate challenging game-play and overcoming obstacles as a reward

[Hotthedd]

Yes it can fire them at once. Just not with pinpoint accuracy.

It is not a robot, it is a machine with a HUMAN pilot.

Edited by Hotthedd, 07 April 2015 - 06:52 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

DaZur, on 07 April 2015 - 06:50 AM, said:

I read these forums sometimes and wonder what game everyone else is playing?

I must be a green, wet-behind-the-ear newb or something... I have not yet to date had a single flipping incident where I felt overwhelmed by a player either boating or utilizing a massive PPD alpha.

Oh, I've seen them... been hit by them... taken damage... been killed, absolutely.

But I have no recollection where I slammed my fists down in a fit of rage, shook my fist at the sky and damned the player for using a cheese build.

I see it as yet another challenge to overcome with tactics and understanding my enemies strengths and weaknesses.... Not another game-breaking mechanic to nerf into the ground because they present an imposing challenge...

I guess I'm too old school to not appreciate challenging game-play and overcoming obstacles as a reward

Some people are the best at games in the world, and if something kills them it must be overpowered and need changing, because they died, there MUST be SOMETHING wrong.

[DaZur]

Widowmaker1981, on 07 April 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

Some people are the best at games in the world, and if something kills them it must be overpowered and need changing, because they died, there MUST be SOMETHING wrong.

The way I approach this game (completely acknowledging I'm an odd bird)... I have no grander expectation of my match performance than to survive a match and at least dispatch a single enemy pilot.

If I achieve this and more, then I over-achieved and was a carrying force in the match....

The grand delusion that if you don't dispatch 4+ mechs and exit with 1000+ damage your "doing it wrong" is a greater indictment of the a broken play mechanic than the ability of a mech to issue a 40+ alpha.

[xImmortalx]

Widowmaker1981, on 07 April 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

Some people are the best at games in the world, and if something kills them it must be overpowered and need changing, because they died, there MUST be SOMETHING wrong.

Honestly I've always found movement-restricting foolishness like getting stuck on pebbles/random stuff and hoverjets much more frustrating than anything the enemy did. There are some stupid strong mechs out there but none so bad that you can't back off and re-engage, flank or keep your distance.

That being said I can see why people have a problem with mechs carrying stuff they shouldn't be able to carry, such as the 2Gauss/AC20 K2. And a MW4-style slot system would be much easier for newer pilots to pick up.

[DaZur]

I'm sorry to say size restricted hard-points only manifests in a different meta norm... One that I fear is even more damaging than the present one.

You size restrict and suddenly the min/max meta swings to the select few mech / that represent the apex composites...

We kind'a have that now but it's a pretty broad spectrum that allows many a mech that would be relegated as "useless" to remain semi-viable.

[990Dreams]

Just because you are too ignorant/new/unaware of how to handle Alpha Strikes doesn't mean the entire community needs to be punished.

I probably take a serious (one that results in my eventual death if not instantly) Alpha Strike once every two days. So clearly whatever you're doing isn't working.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Sir Wulfrick, on 06 April 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

That was a very well reasoned & thought out post, excellent contribution to the debate. I agree that a very significant part of the solution to the current issues in MWO would be a properly crafted heat scale with suitable dissipation values for heat sinks. Excellent proposal.

I'm starting to believe that a proposal like this, combined with dynamic cones of fire and sized weapon slots is probably The Answer to game balance.

I agree, firing cones could address some issues, and no matter how well argued this point is I doubt we'll see PGI rebuild the heat system from the ground up to add the depth it's supposed to have.