57 replies to this topic

[Riasiru]

So, I was playing the Centurion mech a lot and something occurred to me... These are not mechs designed for battle. Well, they're not very well designed. The left arm and, often enough, right arm aren't very useful in battle as more than an improvised shield. Sure, you can mount an AC/10 or such on the right arm, but it's extremely prone to being blown off. Either directly or when the right chest is destroyed. It also uses up the sparse weight limit with ammunition which could have been used for SRMs or LRMs for the far easier to protect missile hard ports in the left chest.

This mech feels like it was a service mech at best and just got fixed up to fight without much notice. The right arm probably was built to hold some sort of wielder or cutting tool while the left arm was made for moving the parts and such it handled. The energy and missile hard points were probably never even part of the design.

So... It was drafted into military use and just happened to have a bunch of 'expendable' limbs that acted as shields... That's my take on it. I have no idea the actual lore of the MWO universe, though. But, this brings up something else I noticed as a direct result of seeing how useless the arms on the Centurion are in battle... There are legitimate mechs that are clearly made to fight with useless arms. Why do they have them? Why, in the Mechwarrior universe, are arm bearing mechs so common? Especially when many of them don't even use their arms. The Raven, Locust, and Cicada, along with the Catapult feel like legitimate mechs designed for combat. Blackjack, too. There isn't some weird fascination with arms there. They either have a straight up weapon system mounted high for clear fire or an armored plate in place of an arm.

Why is it that so many mechs that don't use their arms and are clearly combat oriented don't have additional plating instead? Do you know how much more dangerous you'd make so many of them by having the arms replaced with a solid armor plating that wraps round behind the mech and acts like the shell of a beetle? Only opening when the pilot wishes to leave through the access hatch typically mounted on the rear. It would literally be an additional 50+ points of armor standing between you and an enemy melting you through the back. Moot point if your side torso gets blown off on the front, but... Still... Even the Centurion could be improved by turning its left arm into a solid metal 'side cape' of sorts. There to do nothing more than obscure a large portion of its torso from the side and rear. It'd also open up two additional slots and remove tonnage that the actuators take up, allowing for more freedom in mounting real weaponry or sub-systems like the AMS or Coolant.

It's not just a re-purposed utility bot, it's a poorly re-purposed one. Welding a block of armor to the left shoulder with a single actuator to have it yaw out of the way of the hatch is all it would take to do so much more with it. It would be cheap to do and require the crudest of know how. Anyone who can repair a mech would find such an alteration barbarically simple.

Sorry, random rant. It just kills immersion when something like that occurs to me.

[Ghillie Dhu]

Who in hell understands mech design?
If there was any thought in the design of the chassis the main weapons wouldnt be slung under neath the pilots cabin ... dont try and think about design and battle tech...there isnt any.

[Juodas Varnas]

A lot of mechs have unusable arms, because in TT there were other uses for them. Like, melee combat, for example.

Right now, in-game it serves as a rather useful shield, if you have a right arm weapon that doesn't need you to be facing the enemy for extended periods of time.
You can put an AC20 or AC10 shot into the enemy, turn to your right, exposing your "vestigial" shield arm to soak up the damage, then turn around, smack the enemy with another AC20 or AC10 shot and repeat.

It really does make the mech much more durable than most other 50 ton mechs. Though, nowadays with 60-90 damage alphas it probably doesn't matter, since you won't be soaking up more than one shot with your arm/torso.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 04 April 2015 - 03:37 AM.

[Nazar24]

Trying to apply logic to giant future mechs in space. I see

[Mercer Skye]

It's sadly a lack of translation from the lore to MWO. In the BTech universe, it's just as common for 'mechs to duke it out in melee combat as much as blow each other apart with big guns.

Without bombarding you with metric tons of TRO pages and manual PDFs;

In BTech lore (and the Table Top); Weapons are actually pretty darn innacurate, and on top of that, generate so much heat, that in the throes of battle, you wold literally have nothing to do but wait for heat to disperse so you can fire again. Arms means you can punch your foe's cockpit a few times to rattle their cage while this happens. Granted, this is mostly an IS problem, hence why the bulk of clan 'mechs lack that ability (Their weapons are a heck of a lot more efficient, and they think rock'em-sock'em is beneath civilized warriors)

Most of the 'mechs you're mentioning without those 'silly' arms are actually 'mechs that weren't meant for frontline operations against other 'mechs. The Raven and Cicada are both 'mechs designed for scouting (Not much punching when you're just scootin' and movin' behind enemy lines), and the Locust is more of an anti-infantry rig (Hence why the poor little things get blown to bits by a single AC20 sortie).

Whereas, most all of the 'mechs you see with arms ARE frontline 'mech-to-'mech rigs. From the Atlas to the lowly little Commando, they have arms because their purpose is to punch other 'mechs of an equivalent size in the face when they run hot.

Edited by Mercer Skye, 04 April 2015 - 03:44 AM.

[El Bandito]

Mechs with hands in lore can do one wonderful thing what the other mechs wish they could.













Rock Paper Scissors


(got you imagining it)

Edited by El Bandito, 04 April 2015 - 03:47 AM.

[Virgil Greyson]

I wouldn't call the centurions shield arm frivolous, it is one of the nicest features of the mech.

[Riasiru]

Mercer Skye, on 04 April 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

It's sadly a lack of translation from the lore to MWO. In the BTech universe, it's just as common for 'mechs to duke it out in melee combat as much as blow each other apart with big guns.

Without bombarding you with metric tons of TRO pages and manual PDFs;

In BTech lore (and the Table Top); Weapons are actually pretty darn innacurate, and on top of that, generate so much heat, that in the throes of battle, you wold literally have nothing to do but wait for heat to disperse so you can fire again. Arms means you can punch your foe's cockpit a few times to rattle their cage while this happens. Granted, this is mostly an IS problem, hence why the bulk of clan 'mechs lack that ability (Their weapons are a heck of a lot more efficient, and they think rock'em-sock'em is beneath civilized warriors)

Most of the 'mechs you're mentioning without those 'silly' arms are actually 'mechs that weren't meant for frontline operations against other 'mechs. The Raven and Cicada are both 'mechs designed for scouting (Not much punching when you're just scootin' and movin' behind enemy lines), and the Locust is more of an anti-infantry rig (Hence why the poor little things get blown to bits by a single AC20 sortie).

Whereas, most all of the 'mechs you see with arms ARE frontline 'mech-to-'mech rigs. From the Atlas to the lowly little Commando, they have arms because their purpose is to punch other 'mechs of an equivalent size in the face when they run hot.

Well, I'm glad I posted this topic. I learned a lot about why mechs have arms and it makes far more sense. Shame that from a game mechanic stand point they've lost their point, but from a lore stand point this makes a ton of sense. Now, as for this silly 'too good for melee' thing... No! I wanna run a pure ballistic rig and when I run out I wanna punch someone in the face. I'm sick of all these silly pew pew lasers! Give me my gun powder n' fists! I'll punch you, mate! XD

Edited by Riasiru, 04 April 2015 - 03:58 AM.

[Darzok]

I would add to what Mercer Skye said the arms are not only used to punch/grab the enemy but hold melee weapons.

The Yen-Lo-Wang was originally armed with an Autocannon/20 in place of the Centurion's Autocannon/10, two Medium Lasers and either a Hatchet or a Claw.

There is no melee in game and most likely never will be but in the Lore the YLW would be running around with a Hatchet(axe) to chop up mech.

Edited by Darzok, 04 April 2015 - 04:06 AM.

[Mercer Skye]

Riasiru, on 04 April 2015 - 03:57 AM, said:

Well, I'm glad I posted this topic. I learned a lot about why mechs have arms and it makes far more sense. Shame that from a game mechanic stand point they've lost their point, but from a lore stand point this makes a ton of sense. Now, as for this silly 'too good for melee' thing... No! I wanna run a pure ballistic rig and when I run out I wanna punch someone in the face. I'm sick of all these silly pew pew lasers! Give me my gun powder n' fists! I'll punch you, mate! XD

Well, the silly 'too good for melee' thing is mostly a Clammer trait. Given their favored tactic of blitzing an opposing force and burning them down with concentrated, accurate fire in a hastened fashion, it's common consensus among them that at the point a battle comes down to fisticuffs of 'mech scale, the fight is fairly well already decided, and it's poor form for a Clanner 'mech pilot to 'lose their cool' and continue on in such a manner as it's tantamount in their eyes to throwing a tantrum at a defeat. Bow your head and accept becoming a bondsman. It ties into their beliefs of resource management.

In Clanner space, resources aren't anywhere near as abundant as they are in the Inner Sphere. So, for them, continuing a fight long after it's finished means more loss of those precious resources. It's the heart of their whole Trial system, conflict is inevitable, and Trials minimize the loss of precious resources (Also neat to note that lives are for the most part towards the bottom of the list of things you want to keep a good stock of)

[Bishop Steiner]

Riasiru, on 04 April 2015 - 03:27 AM, said:

random rant

psssssssssssssssssssst.

They're Gundams. They're not supposed to make sense, they're supposed to be cool and neato. Considering even the MBT of today is largely being obsoleted by shoulder carried weapons, IEDs and Drones, for a fraction the cost of the Tank, having 3 story tall bipedal tanks really is just an expensive, easier to destroy waste, as they are not only easier targets, but their locomotion is even more vulnerable.

This is a stumpy space robot game, and universe, where you suspend disbelief and enjoy some good stompy Pacific Rim/Gundam/Robotech coolness.

Also, as a lifetime Medium Jock and YLW Master? If you keep losing your RA weapon on a Cent? You are doing it very wrong. I probably lose mine 1 time in 10 matches. A little more if you count the matches I run out of ammo, so use it as shield, too.

Twist, and a huge XL, are your friends.

[oldradagast]

Another point to consider: The arms should allow a mech to climb steep terrain, much like rock climbing; this only really applies to the humanoid ones with hands, but it could work.

Now, this idea may not exist in table top and certainly doesn't exist in MWO, but if you're going to make human-shaped robots with hands, you may as well let them use the hands for something, and climbing is an ability that could be useful in battle.

[Mercer Skye]

oldradagast, on 04 April 2015 - 04:26 AM, said:

Another point to consider: The arms should allow a mech to climb steep terrain, much like rock climbing; this only really applies to the humanoid ones with hands, but it could work.

Now, this idea may not exist in table top and certainly doesn't exist in MWO, but if you're going to make human-shaped robots with hands, you may as well let them use the hands for something, and climbing is an ability that could be useful in battle.

I'm actually having to wrack my memory some here, but I think there are actually some obscure, convoluted, and downright confusing rules in some of the older rulebooks that actually cover this for 'mechs with hand actuators. So long as what's being climbed is 'sturdy' enough to deal with 25+ tons of 'mech tugging at it, and some insanely lucky dice rolls, it was possible to do so. But near as I can remember, most everyone I've ever played table top with usually just duct tapes that part of the rule book shut, as you need a degree in law to get a layman's understanding of how it works.

[oldradagast]

Mercer Skye, on 04 April 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

I'm actually having to wrack my memory some here, but I think there are actually some obscure, convoluted, and downright confusing rules in some of the older rulebooks that actually cover this for 'mechs with hand actuators. So long as what's being climbed is 'sturdy' enough to deal with 25+ tons of 'mech tugging at it, and some insanely lucky dice rolls, it was possible to do so. But near as I can remember, most everyone I've ever played table top with usually just duct tapes that part of the rule book shut, as you need a degree in law to get a layman's understanding of how it works.

Ah, but imagine if it made it into MWO. Atlas's and Banshees climbing up the sides of Alpine Peaks like ranging monsters... vs. inching their way slowly up the paths, arms stupidly stuck by their sides, as if they just can't figure out what to do. It would be cool!

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Because rock'em sock'em robots. See 'Big Ben:'




Another thing I haven't seen mentioned is mobility and manipulation. In the TT, I don't remember if stock rules or not, but mechs with hand actuators like the Atlas and Banshee can get up into a places that mechs without those actuators can't. As well as them being able to manipulate things in the environment (like grabbing things to move it out of the way or knock it over), the environment can also manipulate you. In TT, mechs can trip and fall over, they can slip and bust their ass, they can get stuck in mud or sand, then can have buildings knocked over on them, or they can be knocked over by other mechs or tanks. Having those actuators makes it easier for a mech to get up.

Then there are, as mentioned, melee abilities afforded them. If you've seen the stock loadout on a BNC-3E with it's one puny AC5, small llaser, and PPC chances are you thought "wtf?" But you see, it's hugely oversized engine and 95 ton ass worth of mech and armor meant Little Miss Banshee could run down most mechs and go ham on them. Because you see in TT, it's movement was 4/6 and could run down a Direwolf or Atlas at 3/5 and initiate Ramming Speed and bowl it over, and bowling over a Direwolf and knocking it on it's ass most often meant it was down for the count as it would often knock the pilot out cold, it couldn't get up because it couldn't pass the piloting checks due to a lack of actuators, or Madame Banshee could us use her hands to keep it locked in submission WWE style while your infantry swarmed it and disabled it permanently by forcefully removing the pilot from the cockpit.

[Molossian Dog]

Battletech has a few gaps in its lore. Less than other fictional universes, yes, but if you look closer you will find some. Basically it started as little as a beer&pretzels game and stuff just got added and became more serious gradually.
Some parts of the early lore got retconned, other parts should still be taken with a grain of salt.


Also: Battletech is not the future. Battletech is the future of the 80ies.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 04 April 2015 - 04:43 AM.

[RedDragon]

I'd guess the main reason for having arms isn't melee combat but the flexibility it provides. In "actual" mech combat (that means lore and TT), arms allow mechs a far wider field of fire. In fact, combined with torso twisting a mech with arms is able to fire backwards with the weapons on one arm. Previous Mechwarrior games simulated that to a degree - in MW4 you could look 90° to the left or right and instantly fire with the weapons in the corresponding arm, albeit targeting was a bit tricky while doing this.
In MWO at least the arms offer a bit more targeting range than the torso mounted weapons, but it could be a lot more (as always with MWO).

[CDLord HHGD]

Not sure if mentioned, but in Lore, the arms/hands are used to manipulate levers and doors (mech bay) as well as a couple examples of battlemechs being used for constructions (Morgan Kell's Archer carrying an I-beam, etc). There's also somewhere an Atlas that used a COmmando as a bludgeon.

[Bishop Steiner]

RedDragon, on 04 April 2015 - 04:42 AM, said:

I'd guess the main reason for having arms isn't melee combat but the flexibility it provides. In "actual" mech combat (that means lore and TT), arms allow mechs a far wider field of fire. In fact, combined with torso twisting a mech with arms is able to fire backwards with the weapons on one arm. Previous Mechwarrior games simulated that to a degree - in MW4 you could look 90° to the left or right and instantly fire with the weapons in the corresponding arm, albeit targeting was a bit tricky while doing this.
In MWO at least the arms offer a bit more targeting range than the torso mounted weapons, but it could be a lot more (as always with MWO).

also, mechs, for better or worse, pack multiple weapons, instead of a BFG and a MG to support, like a tank. Being able to bring those weapons to bear, easily, on multiple targets would be an advantage.

Though in Btech, arms without guns meant, secondary uses like carrying swag, melee, etc.

Not to mention being handy dandy counter balances for bipedal locomotion.

cdlord, on 04 April 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

Not sure if mentioned, but in Lore, the arms/hands are used to manipulate levers and doors (mech bay) as well as a couple examples of battlemechs being used for constructions (Morgan Kell's Archer carrying an I-beam, etc). There's also somewhere an Atlas that used a COmmando as a bludgeon.

Pretty sure it was a Locust.

[CDLord HHGD]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 April 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

also, mechs, for better or worse, pack multiple weapons, instead of a BFG and a MG to support, like a tank. Being able to bring those weapons to bear, easily, on multiple targets would be an advantage.

Though in Btech, arms without guns meant, secondary uses like carrying swag, melee, etc.

Not to mention being handy dandy counter balances for bipedal locomotion.


Pretty sure it was a Locust.

If I was an Atlas pilot in lore (still trying to get my RPG conversion off the ground), I'd make it my bucket lists to use them all.