11 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

I have been looking a lot at the forums for MWO here and the official one etc. And it soon becomes clear balance changes have to take into account Elo. The reason is a mech that might be OP for the very top players might be below average for average players because they lack the skills or units to use them effectively.

(Not all mechs vary according to Elo just the ones that are most skill based.)

So because of this you could make something balanced at the top of of Elo and make it second rate for low Elo players. Question is what do you do about this.

1. You can just balance for the most number of people in the game.

2. You can balance for just one group. Say balance for competitive teams and let the rest fall where it will.

3. Come up with a sliding fix that takes into account Elo. Not sure if this is a smart way to do it but it is possible. What it would do is make say a heat nerf more severe according to Elo. Probably would not have to be a huge range to be effective.

4. Try and find more creative ways to change mechs so they do not fall into this category. For example put large limits on the fire power of DWs while increasing speed and durability. This would make them more friendly for low and mid Elo players and also help balance them for top players.

Option 4 seems best but is would of course limit diversity of how mechs play be design. That would be one of the down sides to making mechs mid Elo friendly.

By the way another example of this is jump sniping. Jump sniping really well takes a good amount of skill. The average Elo player is not going to tend to have those skills. So you might have something like a Victor Dragon Slayer end up being very good or even OP but hardly ever used by mid Elo players.

Any way I think we oversimplify what needs to be done with balance because of seeing the game from the blinders of what ever Elo you are at.

Crazy maybe but I just noticed the more I study views from around the Elo range the more complex and nuanced I notice it to be.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 26 April 2015 - 05:14 PM.

[El Bandito]

Poptart Victors/Highlanders/3Ds/Quickdraws were used by players of all ranges of Elo during its craze. And it does not take much skill at all. I wouldn't bring it back hoping only select few will use it.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Poptart Victors/Highlanders/3Ds/Quickdraws were used by players of all ranges of Elo during its craze. And it does not take much skill at all. I wouldn't bring it back hoping only select few will use it.

What I tended to see was the top Elo players using them to very good effect. The high Elo but next step down players using them OK. And then a quick fall off to less and less effectiveness.

And I believe with that when you balance them it causes problems. You could make jump sniping viable for the top players but not really viable for the main body of players. And the mechs that are locked into that meta by quirks would just tend to go unused.

[Mcgral18]

There's some sure evidence of this:

LRMs OP PGI plz nerf

[Burktross]

XX Sulla XX, on 26 April 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

What I tended to see was the top Elo players using them to very good effect. The high Elo but next step down players using them OK. And then a quick fall off to less and less effectiveness.

And I believe with that when you balance them it causes problems. You could make jump sniping viable for the top players but not really viable for the main body of players. And the mechs that are locked into that meta by quirks would just tend to go unused.

Top tier players will always use something to a better extent than normal tier. That's inherent of superior skill.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Top tier players will always use something to a better extent than normal tier. That's inherent of superior skill.

The point is you can try and balance something in the middle or top Elo and it not balance in both if you do it wrong. Not that there will not be a meta of some kind.

[Zolaz]

If you want to poptart ... grab a mist lynx or panther, they can still jump and carry ERPPCs

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

If you want to poptart ... grab a mist lynx or panther, they can still jump and carry ERPPCs

has nothing to do with my post. The idea behind the post is that balancing to make it work with all Elo ranges is complex.

[Lily from animove]

Skill should not be part of the balance, because then the metagame will be boring, and especially with CW where no elo matchmaking exists, this would turn out very very bad.

if you balance for the average player you will create a meta consisting only of a very few mechs, because: The average crowd will use the most easy to use metamech. And the high skilled players will also use this mech, because its as good as the others and they will outperform the average player due to skill.

What you need are some quite easy to play, good success mechs. Those the average people use and have fun in. Yet you need some mechs being a bit better if they are harder to play. Those will be the mechs used by the higher elos. but the difference of thee both emchs should not be too high.

Otherwise with perfect mechbalance (which is not achievable at all) people will always use the best and easy to use machines. the Thunderbbolt and currently the stalker were and are prime examples of easy to use chassis being also achieving wins and rewards very easy because they are top tier mechs as well.

[Joseph Mallan]

XX Sulla XX, on 26 April 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

I have been looking a lot at the forums for MWO here and the official one etc. And it soon becomes clear balance changes have to take into account Elo. The reason is a mech that might be OP for the very top players might be below average for average players because they lack the skills or units to use them effectively.

(Not all mechs vary according to Elo just the ones that are most skill based.)

So because of this you could make something balanced at the top of of Elo and make it second rate for low Elo players. Question is what do you do about this.

1. You can just balance for the most number of people in the game.

2. You can balance for just one group. Say balance for competitive teams and let the rest fall where it will.

3. Come up with a sliding fix that takes into account Elo. Not sure if this is a smart way to do it but it is possible. What it would do is make say a heat nerf more severe according to Elo. Probably would not have to be a huge range to be effective.

4. Try and find more creative ways to change mechs so they do not fall into this category. For example put large limits on the fire power of DWs while increasing speed and durability. This would make them more friendly for low and mid Elo players and also help balance them for top players.

Option 4 seems best but is would of course limit diversity of how mechs play be design. That would be one of the down sides to making mechs mid Elo friendly.

By the way another example of this is jump sniping. Jump sniping really well takes a good amount of skill. The average Elo player is not going to tend to have those skills. So you might have something like a Victor Dragon Slayer end up being very good or even OP but hardly ever used by mid Elo players.

Any way I think we oversimplify what needs to be done with balance because of seeing the game from the blinders of what ever Elo you are at.

Crazy maybe but I just noticed the more I study views from around the Elo range the more complex and nuanced I notice it to be.

Every Top rated Mech that the has, die horribly when I pilot them. So I use what I like and do good enough in them.

[Telmasa]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 April 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

Every Top rated Mech that the has, die horribly when I pilot them. So I use what I like and do good enough in them.

Guys like you and I are exceptions to the rule.

I run a CERLL Warhawk, a Nova, a Kit Fox, and a 2xLPL, 2xSRM6A, 2xSPL Timberwolf as my dropdeck. The only halfway "meta-hardcore" mech is the Timberwolf (which, I could just toss CERMLs or MPLs in place of the SPLs, but I'm fighting really hard to avoid it & I like its sustainability in a brawl).

I decidedly get alot more done with the Nova and Warhawk. I've gotten 2000+ damage out of the Nova alone some games.

That doesn't make any of those mechs easy to use or OP.

As others have put, when it comes to balancing things, player skill has to be removed from the table, because it will skew everything and anything to no end.

I did try the laser barf T-wolf for a bit, and it was stupendously easy and single-minded to use. I hated it for that reason.

The same reason I hated using the Thunderbolt-9S in its most OP "glory" days, and the Dragon-1N. I sold both mechs because I hated how stupidly easy they were to use & succeed with.

Even my 4ERLL+2SRM6A Stalker pushed the limit, because its hardpoints and layout is already excellent - the quirks just push it to nearly being easy-mode.


You yourself often say, loudly, you don't want player's hands to be held. That right there is the argument for working on better balance and not carrying on with god-mode quirks, CERML barf, and Streak-6 boating being as powerful as they are now.

Edited by Telmasa, 27 April 2015 - 06:39 PM.

[Theodore42]

I think the quirks addressed these issues. It made the lower tier mechs more competitive, and you can pretty much drop in anything in solo queue now. Although when I start getting put in matches with players that have a higher Elo, I'll start running more meta mechs.

As it is, I think an experienced player can run pretty much anything in solo queue and affect the game.

As for group and cw, that is meant to be more competitive, so whatever you can exploit the best is what you should drop in.