85 replies to this topic

[blackndecker17]

maybe the simplest solution to the light rush would be make lights, lights again. They are scouts and infantry killers. They were never meant to be a strong as they are in this game. They shouldn't be able to come close to base killing.

[Anarcho]

blackndecker17, on 05 April 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

maybe the simplest solution to the light rush would be make lights, lights again. They are scouts and infantry killers. They were never meant to be a strong as they are in this game. They shouldn't be able to come close to base killing.

Yes, I can understand a pack of 3 or more lights giving hell to some heavies and assaults, but maybe when AI is implemented, lights can be nerfed a little since they can have a greater role. If we nerf lights now, light players will be in big trouble.

[Livewyr]

Simple solution? Ac20 Turrets. (That will only shoot at targets within 200 meters)

That way, someone who is actually fighting can easily take it out before they get within 250 meters...someone who is only sprinting may find a most unpleasant legging.

(Could also do this with Large lasers, as long as they're programmed not to shoot out more than 200 meters)



Make this an upgrade option for your planets...

--------------------------------

Oooh ooh Better:

Giant Electromagnets! Anything under 40 tons that gets too close to it (say within 150 meters) gets yanked off its feet and slammed up to the electromagnet. (It would get disabled once the corresponding generator went down.)

Perfect.

Edited by Livewyr, 05 April 2015 - 04:18 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

That Dawg, on 04 April 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

lets see....10 minutes waiting for que, another couple of minutes for the drop to happen......game over in just over two minutes.
Yup, GG, worth my time as a solo pugger!

I'm curious, you 12 mans rolling over pugs, do you get more cbills, more xp, or some generated rewards from the clan?
Seems like its pure ego, just a stat- winning more important- supersedes all modes of gameplay.
dunno, I must be simple, I like the fight, and the rewards from a long drawn out engagement.
Guess its back to pugs!

I'm afraid the issue is that you simply do not understand CW.

CW is the part of the game where teamwork, coordination, positioning, and a focus on the objective above simple combat are essential to success. Those are also half the point of CW, with the other point the gaining of planets for your faction.

A Pug team normally has less teamwork, almost no coordination, wildly variable positioning, focuses on simple combat as much or more than the objectives, and is only on the planet because the individual player was looking for a fight. Under such conditions, any player who elects to enter CW as a Pug is going to be heavily disadvantaged against any 12-man team that is following the intent and goals of CW, and has to know that when they choose to enter CW without concern for those points (which, as a Pug, they inherently do).

So, if such a game, where the Pug team failed to coordinate, failed to be prepared for the enemy they faced, failed to concentrate on their objectives, and failed to act as a team, is not worth your time, then all I can say is that it is entirely on you. Especially as a defender, where you have all the advantages of turrets, point-blank reinforcement, position, and dropship fire support. If, even with all of that, you still can't bring the force to battle and can't stop them from achieving their objectives on the first attack, then your team was so outmatched that you probably wouldn't have won if the other team had decided to engage with heavy combat units instead.

This is CW, not Public. If all you care about is fighting, it's not the place for you. You have to look well beyond that to how to set up your fighting and why you are fighting. Failure to do so leaves you no grounds for complaint if you fail, and 'not worth your time' is entirely your own decision and a result of your own viewpoint towards this area of the game.

To your question regarding what a 12-man using this tactic gains, I will refer you to the above paragraph on CW. The Unit using this tactic is supporting their faction (BWC was not a Clan force, so why you think we would be supporting our Clan I do not know) and gaining victory for them. As a mercenary faction, BWC is honor-bound to work in the interests of the faction who they are employed by and to advance their position by fighting in any way that does that and is ethically by the rules of the game. To engage in the kind of fighting you seem to think they should have, when your side had the advantages of terrain, position, additional firepower on top of the already equal drop deck tonnage of forces, point-blank reinforcements, and dropship support would have been purposefully choosing to enter a battle with so many disadvantages that a 'fair fight' would have been impossible except if the defending team was so incompetent that they didn't deserve to win anyway. Doing that would have been counter to the interests of the faction, and so the only effective tactic to overcome those disadvantages and remain faithful to the contract was what was used. It has nothing to do with ego or personal rewards, but everything to do with overcoming the disadvantages stacked against the attacker to obtain the benefit for the faction.

As for those who say a Pug ground cannot defend against such a force, I will state that in a previous battle that same night, that BWC 12-man team performed a light rush that was stopped cold by a Pug Clan force because the Clan defenders -knew what they were doing- and worked together. That is the most definite proof I can think of that such an idea is a complete falsehood that some players cling to to explain away their own poor performance, especially Clan players who have advantages the Inner Sphere does not when it comes to adapting to this kind of attack.

In the end, those who call fighting in the spirit of CW, in true faith to the faction being served, and using tactics in keeping with the tenants of objective warfare 'cheese' simply don't understand the part of the game they have entered, and are hiding behind name-calling instead of facing the fact that the faults lie with their own choices. Choosing to Pug in the part of the game that the player knows is intended to emphasize organized teamplay and cohesive Units, choosing to focus on simple grind fighting instead of the objectives, choosing to not be prepared for the enemy, choosing to not adapt to the enemy's tactics and strategy....all of these choices have consequences, and trying to ignore that by claiming it's somehow the fault of the game or the other team is just being childish.

The only thing I can advise is that each player really look at CW, understand CW, and accept what their choices will mean to their experience in CW before they choose to enter CW. In the end, it is -not- the Public queue, and you have to adapt to the differences or face the results of your decisions.

[Appogee]

Blame PGI as much as the early basecappers. 12 man shouldn't be put against multiple small groups. Make them/us wait for a fair match against another 12 man instead, of just stomping tiny groups of PUGs.

[YCSLiesmith]

blackndecker17, on 05 April 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

maybe the simplest solution to the light rush would be make lights, lights again. They are scouts and infantry killers. They were never meant to be a strong as they are in this game. They shouldn't be able to come close to base killing.

wow! what a great idea! lets make a mech that is all about infantry killing, in this game with no infantry! this is fun

maybe the simplest solution to light rushing is to get good, scrubs

[That Dawg]

TLDR in fact, all of your posts are abhorrently long, rambling and repetitive.

I have read enough of your rather elitist posts about "CW isn't for new players", "CW is designed for 12 man teams", and the various ones where you chide someone for post, like mine.

Guess what? NO new players means you get to sit on comms with your pals for hours waiting to play a couple battles each night.

And, guess what else? You, your mind set is in the minority. Sorry- its true.

I like CW, I want to play CW, new players are drawn here hearing about CW, but nooooo, if everyone doesn't fit into YOUR narrow definition of how we are supposed to play, we should just piss off? insert rolleyes emoticon

Jakob Knight, on 05 April 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

I'm afraid the issue is that you simply do not understand CW.

CW is the part of the game where teamwork, coordination, positioning, and a focus on the objective above simple combat are essential to success. Those are also half the point of CW, with the other point the gaining of planets for your faction.

A Pug team normally has less teamwork, almost no coordination, wildly variable positioning, focuses on simple combat as much or more than the objectives, and is only on the planet because the individual player was looking for a fight. Under such conditions, any player who elects to enter CW as a Pug is going to be heavily disadvantaged against any 12-man team that is following the intent and goals of CW, and has to know that when they choose to enter CW without concern for those points (which, as a Pug, they inherently do).

So, if such a game, where the Pug team failed to coordinate, failed to be prepared for the enemy they faced, failed to concentrate on their objectives, and failed to act as a team, is not worth your time, then all I can say is that it is entirely on you. Especially as a defender, where you have all the advantages of turrets, point-blank reinforcement, position, and dropship fire support. If, even with all of that, you still can't bring the force to battle and can't stop them from achieving their objectives on the first attack, then your team was so outmatched that you probably wouldn't have won if the other team had decided to engage with heavy combat units instead.

This is CW, not Public. If all you care about is fighting, it's not the place for you. You have to look well beyond that to how to set up your fighting and why you are fighting. Failure to do so leaves you no grounds for complaint if you fail, and 'not worth your time' is entirely your own decision and a result of your own viewpoint towards this area of the game.

To your question regarding what a 12-man using this tactic gains, I will refer you to the above paragraph on CW. The Unit using this tactic is supporting their faction (BWC was not a Clan force, so why you think we would be supporting our Clan I do not know) and gaining victory for them. As a mercenary faction, BWC is honor-bound to work in the interests of the faction who they are employed by and to advance their position by fighting in any way that does that and is ethically by the rules of the game. To engage in the kind of fighting you seem to think they should have, when your side had the advantages of terrain, position, additional firepower on top of the already equal drop deck tonnage of forces, point-blank reinforcements, and dropship support would have been purposefully choosing to enter a battle with so many disadvantages that a 'fair fight' would have been impossible except if the defending team was so incompetent that they didn't deserve to win anyway. Doing that would have been counter to the interests of the faction, and so the only effective tactic to overcome those disadvantages and remain faithful to the contract was what was used. It has nothing to do with ego or personal rewards, but everything to do with overcoming the disadvantages stacked against the attacker to obtain the benefit for the faction.

As for those who say a Pug ground cannot defend against such a force, I will state that in a previous battle that same night, that BWC 12-man team performed a light rush that was stopped cold by a Pug Clan force because the Clan defenders -knew what they were doing- and worked together. That is the most definite proof I can think of that such an idea is a complete falsehood that some players cling to to explain away their own poor performance, especially Clan players who have advantages the Inner Sphere does not when it comes to adapting to this kind of attack.

In the end, those who call fighting in the spirit of CW, in true faith to the faction being served, and using tactics in keeping with the tenants of objective warfare 'cheese' simply don't understand the part of the game they have entered, and are hiding behind name-calling instead of facing the fact that the faults lie with their own choices. Choosing to Pug in the part of the game that the player knows is intended to emphasize organized teamplay and cohesive Units, choosing to focus on simple grind fighting instead of the objectives, choosing to not be prepared for the enemy, choosing to not adapt to the enemy's tactics and strategy....all of these choices have consequences, and trying to ignore that by claiming it's somehow the fault of the game or the other team is just being childish.

The only thing I can advise is that each player really look at CW, understand CW, and accept what their choices will mean to their experience in CW before they choose to enter CW. In the end, it is -not- the Public queue, and you have to adapt to the differences or face the results of your decisions.

Livewyr, on 05 April 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

Simple solution? Ac20 Turrets. (That will only shoot at targets within 200 meters)

That way, someone who is actually fighting can easily take it out before they get within 250 meters...someone who is only sprinting may find a most unpleasant legging.

(Could also do this with Large lasers, as long as they're programmed not to shoot out more than 200 meters)



Make this an upgrade option for your planets...

--------------------------------

Oooh ooh Better:

Giant Electromagnets! Anything under 40 tons that gets too close to it (say within 150 meters) gets yanked off its feet and slammed up to the electromagnet. (It would get disabled once the corresponding generator went down.)

Perfect.

I'm strangely attracted to these ideas

[Appogee]

Livewyr, on 05 April 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

Giant Electromagnets! Anything under 40 tons that gets too close to it (say within 150 meters) gets yanked off its feet and slammed up to the electromagnet.

Bwahahahahaha!

[YCSLiesmith]

look the fact is that there are specific ways to beat light rushes. especially for clans, who can and should drop in streak srm stormcrows and hunt lights that way. if you don't have or want streak srm stormcrows, then point damage weapons (lasers, gauss) are excellent for legging people. leg a wave of lights and suddenly they are no threat. if some idiot team drops in three waves of lights against a competent team then you might as well be spawn camping them for all the chance they have.

it's frustrating to get light rushed without knowing the solutions. and there have been framerate problems in some maps in the past that make the light rush almost unbeatable, which is complete bullshit. but generally speaking this is a low level tactic that has some hard counters which, used properly, will shut it down 99 times out of a hundred.

[Mystere]

Anarcho, on 05 April 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:

Yes, I can understand a pack of 3 or more lights giving hell to some heavies and assaults, but maybe when AI is implemented, lights can be nerfed a little since they can have a greater role. If we nerf lights now, light players will be in big trouble.

Delegating lights to AI-killing is more that a little bit insulting. That is not the "greater role" people are talking about.

Edited by Mystere, 05 April 2015 - 05:07 AM.

[YCSLiesmith]

lights are fine, they're easy to kill and are hard to pilot well. bad players not being able to kill them is no reason to nerf them, any more than a guy complaining about how his machine gun cicada can't even damage an atlas is a reason to nerf the atlas.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Chef Kerensky, on 04 April 2015 - 09:00 PM, said:

We already get a taste of our own medicine. Against other IS players. We know how to counter it, you should learn.

I don't expect a clanner to understand this because they never fight each other and 90% of their players don't actually realize what their top tier mechs are capable of but when you fight others under the same faction you will start to get a better feel for how to counter the tactics they use as well as how to better use your own mechs instead of crying on the forums about quirks or whatever.

Erm, i do know how to counter them. that's why i said it's a BWC thing. Once their light lances got resolves in s-srm they're not particual good with heavies and/or assaults. They can win against a pug team by taking them by surprise, but against units.. nope, falling flat on their faces. They might lacking training, since they only win by rushing the gens.

Btw, it's not like i fought for the clans and the clans only, so you might know that it's possible to change the faction. ;P
Obligatory streakcrow, and gauss instead of laservomit (because teribad hitreg) is doing the trick for me.
But i'd rather would take acceptable hitreg on lights with lasers then streaks, thou.

I do agree on clan to clan combat, i would really like to see more of it.
Then again, if you we would do that, you IS guys would get even less matches against the clans.
Sadly, we don't have the numbers we'd like to have to even match what the IS is throwing against us.

Also nice to see that you actually have something to say instead of the usual trolling attempts.

YCSLiesmith, on 05 April 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

lights are fine, they're easy to kill and are hard to pilot well. bad players not being able to kill them is no reason to nerf them, any more than a guy complaining about how his machine gun cicada can't even damage an atlas is a reason to nerf the atlas.

Couldn't agree more IF it would works as intended. It's not so much about the lights themself (broken hitboxes or not) but the hitreg on said lights with long duration laser ticks.

Edited by LOADED, 05 April 2015 - 05:51 AM.

[Livewyr]

That Dawg, on 05 April 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

I'm strangely attracted to these ideas

Appogee, on 05 April 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

Bwahahahahaha!

There is a lot more where that came from.

[oldradagast]

That Dawg, on 04 April 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

lets see....10 minutes waiting for que, another couple of minutes for the drop to happen......game over in just over two minutes.
Yup, GG, worth my time as a solo pugger!

I'm curious, you 12 mans rolling over pugs, do you get more cbills, more xp, or some generated rewards from the clan?
Seems like its pure ego, just a stat- winning more important- supersedes all modes of gameplay.
dunno, I must be simple, I like the fight, and the rewards from a long drawn out engagement.
Guess its back to pugs!

The purpose of CW in its current form is to provide a straight forward, predictable path to victory that can be decided at the drop deck and which minimizes in-game decisions. This works nicely with the limited map selection and the stale and repetitive objectives. Toss in the free wins handed out to teams over PUG's and you have a game mode ideally suited for bragging and declarations of "skill" which actually requires far less real abilities than playing in the Public queues which have more game modes and actual skill-based match making.

In short, CW is great if you like creating something beforehand that'll probably win and then just running through the motions in game, particularly against opponents that pose no threat. It's no different than downloading and buying a mindless, top-tier Magic deck and then using it to stomp newbies at draft night. Same "skill" and same pointless game play. But certain folks love this, and they spend lots of money, so don't expect it to change. Just don't play CW.

Edited by oldradagast, 05 April 2015 - 05:51 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

oldradagast, on 05 April 2015 - 05:51 AM, said:

The purpose of CW in its current form is to provide a straight forward, predictable path to victory that can be decided at the drop deck and which minimizes in-game decisions.

You're forgetting:

pugs vs pugs
premade + pugs vs premade + pugs
premade vs premade

CW is not only about 12 man premades stomping pugs.

Edited by LOADED, 05 April 2015 - 05:55 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Anarcho, on 05 April 2015 - 02:30 AM, said:

Cheese people always say there is a way to defend against the cheese... but the truth is, we cant. We cant bring 3 waves of SSRMs boats, IS can bring 3 waves of firestarters.

Yes you can

3 streak crow, Timber.

Not saying its a good idea.......but you can.

[HARDKOR]

That Dawg, on 05 April 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

TLDR in fact, all of your posts are abhorrently long, rambling and repetitive.

I have read enough of your rather elitist posts about "CW isn't for new players", "CW is designed for 12 man teams", and the various ones where you chide someone for post, like mine.

Guess what? NO new players means you get to sit on comms with your pals for hours waiting to play a couple battles each night.

And, guess what else? You, your mind set is in the minority. Sorry- its true.

I like CW, I want to play CW, new players are drawn here hearing about CW, but nooooo, if everyone doesn't fit into YOUR narrow definition of how we are supposed to play, we should just piss off? insert rolleyes emoticon

By refusing to play it as it was meant to be played, and then complaining that the people doing it correctly are beating you all the time, you make a HUGE ass of yourself.

This is no different than going to a job interview in your street clothes and complaining that suits are for douchebags.

[Knyx]

I always like it when a unit comes into a thread to bash another unit for light rushing all the time when they do it themselves.

It is nothing more then a scrub tactic, even light rushing first wave just to get omega to 1 shot from destroyed then stopping, in case you know, you lose your the fights with your next 2 waves.
This is why it is a very potent misconception that units = more skilled players, when so far I just see the contrary.

It would be different if you could edit your drop deck after a map loads, or see what mechs the other side is running with first wave. There is no 100% crystal clear guarantee what the opponent is running so expecting everyone on the otherside to pick streak boats which will be handicap against anything other then a light rush just makes you look ignorant

I will say this though, light rushing isn't as scrubby as the units or players in units that blatantly use cheat engine.
I'd name names but most forums ban you for that... even though reporting does nothing.

Edited by Knyx, 05 April 2015 - 06:37 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

That Dawg, on 05 April 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

TLDR in fact, all of your posts are abhorrently long, rambling and repetitive.

I have read enough of your rather elitist posts about "CW isn't for new players", "CW is designed for 12 man teams", and the various ones where you chide someone for post, like mine.

Guess what? NO new players means you get to sit on comms with your pals for hours waiting to play a couple battles each night.

And, guess what else? You, your mind set is in the minority. Sorry- its true.

I like CW, I want to play CW, new players are drawn here hearing about CW, but nooooo, if everyone doesn't fit into YOUR narrow definition of how we are supposed to play, we should just piss off? insert rolleyes emoticon

My posts are repetitive because the same posts come up about the same issue that has the same answer and the same causes, and some players simply refuse to accept where the fault lies. They are long because I write to explain things as best I can and not just to blow digital bytes around so I can feel good about myself. You call my attitude 'Elitist', which is curious considering the purpose of CW is the hardmode part of the game, inherently the place for elite players to test themselves. I have never once suggested, as have others, that Public should be done away with and -everyone- be forced into CW because I realize Public has its place and its own flavor that MWO needs because not everyone who plays MWO finds what CW is to be enjoyable. If that is 'elitist', then so be it. That is your opinion, but not mine.

As for being in the minority, I don't rely on popularity to decide what I consider right and wrong, nor what conclusions my reasoning abilities produce. Therefore, it is inconsequential.

Further, by complaining about how Light Rushes are not the way to play, are you not more guilty of attempting to force people to only play your way? Is informing people that teamwork and coordination are vital in a part of the game intended to make teamwork and coordination vital 'telling them how to play'? I suppose it would be, if it were the case that they were ignorant of what CW is, and in that case, wouldn't it be a good thing for them and any team they might end up on if someone lets them know what they do not?

Finally, I have posted here in an attempt to not only give my own opinion and viewpoint (as you have) but to also attempt to help players who don't understand CW to do so. It is up to each player if they will accept what is said or cling to their own viewpoints.

[That Dawg]

HARDKOR, on 05 April 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

By refusing to play it as it was meant to be played, and then complaining that the people doing it correctly are beating you all the time, you make a HUGE ass of yourself.

This is no different than going to a job interview in your street clothes and complaining that suits are for douchebags.

Say, that sounds like a successful plan, missing the point by a country mile- hows that work in real life?
I wont begin to address the analogy, as again, you're assuming the only jobs are those that require suits? Try that tact in the trades.

And.......point......match.......Saturday afternoon, ON an EASTER weekend, when about half the country is sitting at home, heres your CW population barely one week after a huge event that was giving away free time, mechbays, and desirable mechs...
You're getting your wish lads! Only like minded folks are playing.
So...how long does a que like that take before you actually get to drop?

About a hundred people? whoa, enjoy!