171 replies to this topic

[Jonathan Paine]

Forums are filled with rants about how great the Stalker 4N is and how bad the Warhawk/peacedove is. Here is a quick rundown showing that the Warhawk can match the 6 LL of the Stalker by using 4 CLPL.

Stalker 4N:
6 Large lasers/20 DHS/STD 300
Alpha: 54 damage at 585 meters (quirks+range module)
DPS: 17.7 at 585m - overheats after 6.9 seconds (fully skilled)
Damage before overheat: 122
Sustainable DPS: 6.3
Time to cool down: 17.3 seconds
Top speed: 62.9 kph
Armor points: 496/526

Warhawk (Prime):
4 Clan large pulse lasers/28DHS/XL340/T1 computer
Alpha: 52 damage at 687 meters (T1+range module)
DPS: 13.6 at 687 meters - overheats after 8.9 seconds (fully skilled)
Damage before overheat: 121
Sustainable DPS: 6.8
Time to cool down: 15.1 seconds
Top speed: 71.3
Armor points: 499/526

Stalker strengths:
Amazing dps at 585 or closer
High mounted weapons for excellent ridge humping

Warhawk strengths:
Amazing ranged capability
Quick and agile for an assault
Amazing heat dissipation


Analysis:
Mechs remarkably well matched in both alpha strikes as well as continuous damage over time. Range and mobility makes the Warhawk a more versatile 85 tonner, quick damage delivery and high mounted weapons makes the Stalker an incredible ridge humper.

Remark:
No-one in their right mind would run a Warhawk over a timberwolf or hellbringer for CW - despite data (as well as in-game testing) showing that the Warhawk equals one of the most highly praised mechs in the game. As an additional bonus, the Warhawk could drop a ton of armor and add the beagle active probe if you want information warfare.

[Mcgral18]

PeaceDoves also has a larger CT (which makes using the 40% ST-to-CT damage transfer more difficult) and 20 heat for the 26 damage as opposed to 16.8 heat for 27.

Scaled a tad larger as well (it's closer to a Whale in size, while Stalker is pretty small for an Assault)

Hardpoint location is the biggest difference, I find. Being hull down is pretty nice.

Burn times are insignificant, at ~a tenth of a second.

Edited by Mcgral18, 05 April 2015 - 09:16 AM.

[Armorine]

The war hawks biggest issue is not its size. It's how's used. I've seen too many try to use it as a brawler. They're not good at that. They're fire support mechs. Not intended for a knife fight. Run them like a none-pulse battle master. Hang back and provide overwhelming firepower where needed. That's how I run my battle masters.

[Jman5]

Before this gets out of hand with 6 pages of theorycraft, I would add that if anyone truly wants to compare the two mechs, 1v1 them a few times with a similarly skilled opponent. I did this a few nights ago and we did try stalker 4N vs Warhawk laser build. It essentially came down to 1 hit difference which tells me if there is imbalance, it's not that different.

[Deathlike]

If you want strict comparisons that matter...

Stalker-4N (6LL):
It's laservomit, so it does overheat.
High mounts are great for hill humping.
It still gets smashed in a brawl.
It is smaller than your average Assault mech.


Warhawk (4CLPL):
It's lotsa wub (wub is good), and it still overheats.
Gets treated like a Dire Wolf, but doesn't hit or survive like one.
It is only acceptable when not focused on.
It is more mobile/agile than a Stalker.


All in all, you are better using a Timberwolf than a Warhawk.

[STEF_]

Sorry OP but Stalker is way much better than Warhawk.
It tanks much better and has higher hardpoints.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Warhawk will equal a Stalker when its arms get sucked up a bit and hang around the cockpit, not around it's waist, and when the entire CT gets thinned down a little, then then the entire mech gets shrunk about half a meter or so....Warhawk is a fairly slender, despite its house on legs stature. ITs arms are high mounted like the Zeus we now have.....PGI should look at that mech for reference, or just google Warhawk and see its arms do not hang out left and right as far, nor dangle so dang far down. Also, the guns are very big, not stubby...

As for big arms losing the guns, well, you lose a ST you lose the arm, plus your 1 step closer to dead. Id rather lose the arm then the ST.

[Yokaiko]

Armorine, on 05 April 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

The war hawks biggest issue is not its size. It's how's used. I've seen too many try to use it as a brawler. They're not good at that. They're fire support mechs. Not intended for a knife fight. Run them like a none-pulse battle master. Hang back and provide overwhelming firepower where needed. That's how I run my battle masters.

Firesupport when you have to expose the ENTIRE MECH to shoot over a hill doesn't work.

This is why the Warhawk doesn't hold a candle to a stalker, ever.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yokaiko, on 05 April 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

Firesupport when you have to expose the ENTIRE MECH to shoot over a hill doesn't work.

This is why the Warhawk doesn't hold a candle to a stalker, ever.

Exactly.........the mech shouldnt have to expose nearly as much.....its arms dangle way to low.....suck em up to Zeus lvl and its golden.

[Johnny Z]

Good try OP. But its all for nothing. Clan players demand easy mode and anything less than a Cheese mech is consider garbage. Balance? They dont know the meaning of the word. It is completely alien to the average Omni pilot who will only pilot one of 4 easy mode mechs, one of which is to heavy to max out the Cheese, which is their only concern, on the star map so they rarely even pilot that!

[Pariah Devalis]

The name of the game is hardpoint placement. A stalker need only peek just enough to see the enemy over terrain and it can unleash 6 LLas from now until kingdom come. Being so heavily covered by terrain means its effective target profile is a fraction of the size of the mech, as all you can see is ~25% of the vehicle. By contrast, the Warhawk's weapons are all mounted well below the cockpit. This means it must expose a little more than 50% of the mech to incoming weapon fire, making the mech a heck of a lot easier to hit even when hull down.

When you toss on the physical design of the two models, you end up with an incredibly narrow mech with only 25% of itself exposed vs an extremely wide mech with about 50% of itself exposed. Effectively, use of cover is largely negated by any Warhawk which wishes to actually participate in a fight. It must expose itself to significant risk to fire, when, by contrast, the Stalker can dig in and keep firing at targets while presenting almost nothing for the enemy to fire upon.

Short of a total redesign of the Warhawk this issue will never be resolved. It could be minimized somewhat if PGI would reorient the arms to put the cannons in line with the cockpit like they have historically been, but even so you still have a larger target that all but fills the targeting box from across the map.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 April 2015 - 10:10 AM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Jman5, on 05 April 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

Before this gets out of hand with 6 pages of theorycraft, I would add that if anyone truly wants to compare the two mechs, 1v1 them a few times with a similarly skilled opponent. I did this a few nights ago and we did try stalker 4N vs Warhawk laser build. It essentially came down to 1 hit difference which tells me if there is imbalance, it's not that different.

I was the other guy, and I took my Warhawk against his 4N. The mechs are fairly well matched. The hitbox advantage went to the Stalker. My Warhawk would be dead, his Stalker would be cherry CT. But I had a major speed and maneuverability advantage. I find the two mechs to be nearly perfectly balanced for a pair of 85 tonners.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Johnny Z, on 05 April 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

Good try OP. But its all for nothing. Clan players demand easy mode and anything less than a Cheese mech is consider garbage. Balance? They dont know the meaning of the word. It is completely alien to the average Omni pilot who will only pilot one of 4 easy mode mechs, one of which is to heavy to max out the Cheese, which is their only concern, on the star map so they rarely even pilot that!

Lol, there is so much more to a mech then straight up numbers.....sure, the Warhawk's DPS/coolant and stuff are better or similar, but Stalker's hull down capability cannot be matched.

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 05 April 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

I was the other guy, and I took my Warhawk against his 4N. The mechs are fairly well matched. The hitbox advantage went to the Stalker. My Warhawk would be dead, his Stalker would be cherry CT. But I had a major speed and maneuverability advantage. I find the two mechs to be nearly perfectly balanced for a pair of 85 tonners.

Now do the same thing where each is in it's ideal, typical combat situation.

IE: Corner poking for the WHK and hulldown for the Stalker, since thats kinda how you play them..try to use the WHK as a flank n spanker while the Stalker uses its hull down and superior hit boxes. BEt it is a wash in favor of the Stalker then.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

The stalker high mounted weapon perks, far shorter burn time on the lasers, and body design put it in a class of its own; far ahead of the warhawk in nearly everyway.

Throw in the IS 10 ton weight advantage and you've got a far superior mech in CW when compared to the hawk. Likewise the fact taking a warhawk will largely force a clan light in there at some point and when you compare this light to the equivalent IS light you've got another reason why the warhawk is just not that good when compared to the stalker.

Warhawk is not a bad mech but certainly is not up to his IS weight equivalent.

Edited by Blueduck, 05 April 2015 - 10:18 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Johnny Z, on 05 April 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

Good try OP. But its all for nothing. Clan players demand easy mode and anything less than a Cheese mech is consider garbage. Balance? They dont know the meaning of the word. It is completely alien to the average Omni pilot who will only pilot one of 4 easy mode mechs, one of which is to heavy to max out the Cheese, which is their only concern, on the star map so they rarely even pilot that!

So much hatorade

[Johnny Z]

Yokaiko, on 05 April 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

So much hatorade

On the contrary. Its hilarious, that desciption accurately describes the Omni mech pilots on these forums, for the most part. It couldnt be more funny. I get constant laughs with the lengths to which easy mode Clan players will go to preserve their Cheese mode advantage.

Go ahead prove me right for the millionth time.

[Ultimax]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 05 April 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

I was the other guy, and I took my Warhawk against his 4N. The mechs are fairly well matched. The hitbox advantage went to the Stalker. My Warhawk would be dead, his Stalker would be cherry CT. But I had a major speed and maneuverability advantage. I find the two mechs to be nearly perfectly balanced for a pair of 85 tonners.

Do you have the WHK-C?

If not, you should re-test then with a fully asymmetric build.

Pariah Devalis, on 05 April 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

The name of the game is hardpoint placement. A stalker need only peek just enough to see the enemy over terrain and it can unleash 6 LLas from now until kingdom come.

2 of those LLAS are ST mounted, and require you to expose most of the upper body to fire them.






EDIT: Added testing in this post: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4340581

Edited by Ultimatum X, 05 April 2015 - 11:32 AM.

[Jman5]

LordKnightFandragon, on 05 April 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

Now do the same thing where each is in it's ideal, typical combat situation.

IE: Corner poking for the WHK and hulldown for the Stalker, since thats kinda how you play them..try to use the WHK as a flank n spanker while the Stalker uses its hull down and superior hit boxes. BEt it is a wash in favor of the Stalker then.

If you think how we tested was deficient, feel free to do your own 1v1 experiments and report back here.

[Summon3r]

STK better then WHK anyday of the week.

STK far more survivable, high mounted weps, extreme range erll, no ghost heat on firing 3 large variety lasers at once

that said i love WHK's i am not complaining at all (except it is unplayable in prime mode), any half decent STK pilot should pick apart a WHK very easily.

[Blue Hymn]

The Warhawk is just a clan variant of the Awesome. Just play the Warhawk as you would play an Awesome, plus its style and methods of engagement.