171 replies to this topic

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I say lower the Heat Cap to 30. That alone should slow the troublesome Clan mechs.

Dissipation can be whatever, and then Heat Scale (Ghost Heat) can be tweaked as necessary.

The Quirks system can pick up the slack and we could see some stat tweaks to weapons.

[Yokaiko]

Praetor Knight, on 06 April 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

I say lower the Heat Cap to 30. That alone should slow the troublesome Clan mechs.

Dissipation can be whatever, and then Heat Scale (Ghost Heat) can be tweaked as necessary.

The Quirks system can pick up the slack and we could see some stat tweaks to weapons.

Jesus Christ trotting this crap out again.

You DO understand that the TT scale sinked heat first and THEN the leftover was applied to the scale, its basically the exact same thing without the negative penalties for running hot, and PGI won't (can't) do that because the the scale moves so fast that it would kill the servers, much like dynamic convergance killed the servers.

Optimization just aint their thing.

[Yokaiko]

Grisbane, on 06 April 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

i could deal with that.. if they offered a mc refund on the MIsery.. since it isn't the vehicle we payed for with that drastic of a change. for those that forked out real money on a hero mech so that we could use it's hard points the way they sit currently.. not all of us use the ac20, ppc build..

Tell that to everyone that bought Muromets and Dragon slayers........the week before they were nerfed into the ground.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yokaiko, on 06 April 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

Tell that to everyone that bought Muromets and Dragon slayers........the week before they were nerfed into the ground.

Or those who bought the poor Heavy Metal.

[Yokaiko]

WM Quicksilver, on 06 April 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

Or those who bought the poor Heavy Metal.

Yeah I never bought a DS.....I have the other two.


Ironically last time I took my HM out (5JJ 330XL, guass x3 llas) It was 5 kills 750ish damage. Freak game, three of those kills were lights trying to swarm me that weren't very good.

[Yokaiko]

Grisbane, on 06 April 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

they had weapon and jj fixes.. slightly different than completely changing the arms.so the laser hardpoints are completely useless.. this changes the stalker from a laser/missile user to a missile boat only build. the lasers would be only useful for backup weapons. flipping the arms would actually go more to promoting the lrm boat builds most hate

JJs getting hammered into the floor, Victors got their turning radius hammered to the same velocity as a ATLAS, ghost heat murdered the x3 llas Metal (which was the meta, it was that or two PPC one mlas) The change to UAC5s pre-quirk was significant, and THEN the charge added to gauss put a bit of a hurting on the other build.


I generally love LRM builds, they tend to carry XLs which makes them light bait. Slow assaults that can't track me and can't touch me with their primary loadouts? Yes Please.

Edited by Yokaiko, 06 April 2015 - 04:40 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Grisbane, on 06 April 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

true, but the hellbringer wasn't available for c-bills then either.. balance-wise IS and clan are pretty freakin even.. why do we insist on ruining it?



not all of us drive light mechs.. and lrm boats ruin our gameplay.. increasing them make it worse.. no thanks

Grisbane, on 06 April 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

the problem is nerfing the stalker as is pretty much kills the IS.

Well no, no it doesn't, and I had the Hellbringer the day it was released, that has NOTHING to do with clan vs IS.

....LRMs are annoying but that is about it.

[Telmasa]

Like I've said in another thread about the Stalker....

You don't fix OP stuff by making other stuff OP too. That's just a neverending pandora's box of power creep that wears everybody out. (If you've played World of Tanks, then you know what I mean & what happened to that game)

You fix OP things by nerfing *all* the OP things. (if you haven't heard me say it yet, I believe it's CERMLs&streak's disproportionately high power-to-tonnage ratios, ghost heat loopholes, and overly high quirks)


I grant you, PGI has a habit of doing nerfs & buffs in steps rather than full sweeps, but in the long run that's what ought to happen.

Though, they could surprise us all and with baby-stepping quirks up by 4% each time manage to find just the right balance to bring all mechs to just about the right level. That's a REALLY long shot if you ask me, but hey man...maybe it'll happen.

Edited by Telmasa, 06 April 2015 - 05:02 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Yokaiko, on 06 April 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

You DO understand that the TT scale sinked heat first and THEN the leftover was applied to the scale, its basically the exact same thing without the negative penalties for running hot, and PGI won't (can't) do that because the the scale moves so fast that it would kill the servers, much like dynamic convergance killed the servers.

The volume of fire we can produce with the high Heat Cap is another problem for the servers, since the main thing is the volume of data that is sent and received to and from the servers. The devs can adjust our rate of fire back down also, which is fine by me, while not increasing Dissipation that much from current levels.

Expanded thoughts on Scale, Cap and Dissipation (something of a tangent):

Spoiler

The approach I'd like to take is similar but different, so that the fire everything and hide until you can fire everything again routine can at least see reduced numbers of weapons fired together, and better sustainability so that Heat Sinks are more a weight tax to counter balance cooler running Ballistics and Missiles.

After all, Heat Capacity was Dissipation over time. So Dissipation over Time is what should handle Heat Output and if you use too much, too fast, it begins to register on the scale.

The P&P Scale and Penalties can be fit to a reasonable frame work though.

For example, 28 heat for the first override-able shutdown with an automatic at 44 mimics the scale well enough 14 to 30). Then Dissipation Handles the rest.

For example, doubled values for DHS would then sit at 0.40, allowing 20 DHS to dissipate 8 heat a second. If Dissipation could instead match the High rate of fire we could see 0.5 from 20 DHS were it is 10 heat a second.

Compared to the current 3.91 heat a second from 20 DHS, we should still be able to fire most weapons more or less the same and have excess heat register.

I would like to see Heat Penalties, but its unlikely anytime soon, so what is the next best thing? For me dropping Capacity and increasing Dissipation is what I'd like to see.

Troublesome Laser Vomit works in part due to the high Heat Capacity and how sustainable high damage is, maybe a different approach should be tried.

So yes I do understand the scale enough that I believe it can be better applied to MWO, even if a concern is volume of data sent and received to and from the servers.

[1453 R]

Grisbane, on 06 April 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

when you get 5 mad dogs raining a river of lrm 10's on you every time you move to take a shot.. it is beyond annoying.. and we all know what happens when they get on caustic valley where is there is no cover. being an assault pilot whenever there is a lot of lrm boats, you know you are not doing much damage before they kill you.

and the hellbringer does have an influence on clan/IS balance.. it is a 65 ton heavy that is 2nd only to the timberwolf for performance as a heavy.. and it has ECM.. it definitely contributes. you stack that with the timberwolf/stormcrowe spam.. the 4N is one of the few mechs actually able to compete with them. what will stop or even slow the timberwolf if the 4n dies.. the thunderbolt can't.. nothing really can.. the IS will be simply outclassed in every department but light mech...

We get it, dude. We get it. You hate the Clans and want them gone. Understood.

nobody, on either side, is paying any attention to anyone who demands that unfair broken junk on their personal favorite side stay untouched 'because the Clamz have TBRs!/Spheroids have TDRs!' Anyone with some sanity left wants the Stalker nerfed. And the Thunderbolt nerfed. And the Huggin nerfed. And the Timber Wolf nerfed. And basically they want the game fixed, rather than just trying to cling to their favorite toys. And regardless of what you think, CW isn't the only factor.

The Stormcrow, for example, strikes me as being mostly fine in the regular queue - it's certainly at the very top of the acceptable medium 'Mech power curve, and I agree that hitbox issues many players report with the thing should be investigated, but in Puglandia I don't believe it's overwhelming, just the one and only T1 medium in the game. And yet people are calling for it to get halved twist arcs as well as seriously decreased twist speeds, on top of speed penalties, because it just so happens to hit a sweet spot in terms of CW drop decks and thus is extremely powerful in that mode.

Why should the Stormcrow be destroyed because CW players don't like it? Why should the Timber Wolf be destroyed because Puglandia players don't like it? Neither 'Mech needs to be ruined. The Stalker doesn't need to be ruined, the TDR-9S doesn't need to be ruined, the Huggin doesn't need to be ruined.

But all of those things need to be reined back in. Nobody wants to wreck the Inner Sphere's existence, Gris. What we want is for balance to assert itself, and for that to happen overperforming things on both sides need to be looked at.

Knee-jerk "DON'T TOUCH IT YOU DAMN DIRTY CLAMMER!" junk like you and JohnnyZ have been spewing in here doesn't help anyone or anything. So knock it off, eh?

[Ultimax]

WM Quicksilver, on 06 April 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

I don't think it is (nor should it be) an absolute necessity to be a viable fire support or sniper mech. Simply having firepower and range on top of a decent profile should be enough and the Stalker would still have that.

It is important when you have no arms to deflect damage.

The Stalker's profile is not good, I really don't understand what you are getting at.

I think you've erroneously convinced yourself about the Stalker's hitboxes thinking they are "good".

They are good for the reasons I said above, hull down firing and shield side tanking - they are bad when you are not doing those things.


If you are not built for either of those things, you are going to lose half your mech very quickly.



It has large STs that are easily targeted and destroyed and no arms to absorb damage, this is exactly the point.


What makes it good are the high mounts.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 April 2015 - 05:28 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I like the amount of theorycraft and **** flying around and amidst all of it, Jman and I have been the only two to put all this theorycrafting to the test and we did it for four hours.

Why are the rest of you so unwilling to actually test their theories? Are y'all scared you might not like the results? I was thinking of buying my 4N back and the test showed that outside of CW it has no use to me if I have Battlemasters and Warhawks or Timberwolves for that matter.

[Ultimax]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 06 April 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

I like the amount of theorycraft and **** flying around and amidst all of it, Jman and I have been the only two to put all this theorycrafting to the test and we did it for four hours.

Why are the rest of you so unwilling to actually test their theories? Are y'all scared you might not like the results? I was thinking of buying my 4N back and the test showed that outside of CW it has no use to me if I have Battlemasters and Warhawks or Timberwolves for that matter.

I put up testing and re-posted it about 3 or 4 times.

It just gets ignored bud, many people have agendas and they aren't actually here for real discussion.

[1453 R]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 06 April 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

I like the amount of theorycraft and **** flying around and amidst all of it, Jman and I have been the only two to put all this theorycrafting to the test and we did it for four hours.

Why are the rest of you so unwilling to actually test their theories? Are y'all scared you might not like the results? I was thinking of buying my 4N back and the test showed that outside of CW it has no use to me if I have Battlemasters and Warhawks or Timberwolves for that matter.

I have no means of testing anything, beyond possibly finding one guy willing to repeat the 1v1 trials you've already covered. As stated, those trials aren't all-encompassing because they ignore both 'Mechs' strengths and weaknesses insofar as they apply to an actual 12v12 setting. You can tell people to shut up unless they have concrete, in-game tested proof...but then your thread would vanish in a day or two as nobody said anything.

If you don't want discussion, that's a'ight, but it strikes me as very counter-intuitive.

Ultimatum X, on 06 April 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

It is important when you have no arms to deflect damage.

The Stalker's profile is not good, I really don't understand what you are getting at.

I think you've erroneously convinced yourself about the Stalker's hitboxes thinking they are "good".

They are good for the reasons I said above, hull down firing and shield side tanking - they are bad when you are not doing those things.


If you are not built for either of those things, you are going to lose half your mech very quickly.



It has large STs that are easily targeted and destroyed and no arms to absorb damage, this is exactly the point.


What makes it good are the high mounts.

The Stalker has a narrow frontal profile that makes it more difficult to target at a distance, in exchange for that great big blimp shape if attacked from the side. It's the same principle they tried to do with the Bushwacker in TT canon. I agree, it's not an ideal brawling platform, but for what it's built for it's about as ideal as one could readily expect. Besides, one 'Mech that can go both full-on shield side and also hull-down hillsniper, often in the same build, sounds like a 'Mech with advantageous geometry to me.

Especially compared to the Box Hawk. I mean come on - you can't be suggesting that the Warhawk has better hitboxes/hardpoints/geometry than the Stalker? o_O

[Mavairo]

1453 R, on 06 April 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

I have no means of testing anything, beyond possibly finding one guy willing to repeat the 1v1 trials you've already covered. As stated, those trials aren't all-encompassing because they ignore both 'Mechs' strengths and weaknesses insofar as they apply to an actual 12v12 setting. You can tell people to shut up unless they have concrete, in-game tested proof...but then your thread would vanish in a day or two as nobody said anything.

If you don't want discussion, that's a'ight, but it strikes me as very counter-intuitive.




The Stalker has a narrow frontal profile that makes it more difficult to target at a distance, in exchange for that great big blimp shape if attacked from the side. It's the same principle they tried to do with the Bushwacker in TT canon. I agree, it's not an ideal brawling platform, but for what it's built for it's about as ideal as one could readily expect. Besides, one 'Mech that can go both full-on shield side and also hull-down hillsniper, often in the same build, sounds like a 'Mech with advantageous geometry to me.

Especially compared to the Box Hawk. I mean come on - you can't be suggesting that the Warhawk has better hitboxes/hardpoints/geometry than the Stalker? o_O

The warhawk will be getting shot less in the first place, as it moves 10 to 15 kph faster in the first place. And will be getting into engagements of it's choice rather than getting ambushed.

And will be wielding clan LPLs..

Advantage warhawk there I'm afraid.

The best IS assault mech right now is comparable to the Peacedove and is going to get a nerf for it. There's something wrong with that picture imo.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimatum X, on 06 April 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

It is important when you have no arms to deflect damage.

The Stalker's profile is not good, I really don't understand what you are getting at.

This is what I refer to

Even with the arms flipped, it would still have one of the better weapon mounts out of the assaults outside the high mounts of the Banshee and Battlemaster and would probably be on par with the Dire Whale S mounts on the torso. This is on top of the heavy sized profile it already entertains. It's only problem is it can torso twist to spread damage to the arms which really only the humanoid mechs can do that to begin with so that puts it in league with the Crab, Whale, and Warhawk

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mavairo, on 06 April 2015 - 06:04 PM, said:

The warhawk will be getting shot less in the first place, as it moves 10 to 15 kph faster in the first place. And will be getting into engagements of it's choice rather than getting ambushed.

And will be wielding clan LPLs..

Advantage warhawk there I'm afraid.

The best IS assault mech right now is comparable to the Peacedove and is going to get a nerf for it. There's something wrong with that picture imo.

LOl, dont think Stalker needs a nerf......why would it get nerfed? It is a decent one, but needs no nerfs. Is that how PGI pushes people into other mechs? Dont make the other ones a bit more appealing, nerf the ones people likes....

[MischiefSC]

The Stalker 4N literally moves exactly like a Dire Wolf. They are nice; don't get me wrong. Solid mech in a very narrow niche. If your opponent is willing to stay there under your lasers and not push they get what they deserve. It can't turn or move enough to cover the CT. Shoot the snoot or the cockpit.

Same as people who hang back and trade pokes with laservomit clan builds on Sulfur instead of pushing in and eating them when they heatcap.

End of the day either laservomit Thudder design is probably overall better and still inferior to TW, possibly still inferior to Stormcrow.

Edited by MischiefSC, 06 April 2015 - 06:13 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

MischiefSC, on 06 April 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

The Stalker 4N literally moves exactly like a Dire Wolf. They are nice; don't get me wrong. Solid mech in a very narrow niche. If your opponent is willing to stay there under your lasers and not push they get what they deserve.

Same as people who hang back and trade pokes with laservomit clan builds on Sulfur instead of pushing in and eating them when they heatcap.

End of the day either laservomit Thudder design is probably overall better and still inferior to TW, possibly still inferior to Stormcrow.

Stalker trial when it was there moves like a boat...I couldnt stand how sluggish it moved. It handled like total and utter ass.

[Ultimax]

1453 R, on 06 April 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

The Stalker has a narrow frontal profile that makes it more difficult to target at a distance, in exchange for that great big blimp shape if attacked from the side.

You don't understand.

WM Quicksilver wants the Stalker to be nerfed so that the arm lasers are all flipped and mounted on the bottom of the arms.


That is why the profile of the mech will no longer be good, the mech itself would be terrible.

WM Quicksilver, on 06 April 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

This is what I refer to

Even with the arms flipped, it would still have one of the better weapon mounts out of the assaults outside the high mounts of the Banshee and Battlemaster and would probably be on par with the Dire Whale S mounts on the torso. This is on top of the heavy sized profile it already entertains. It's only problem is it can torso twist to spread damage to the arms which really only the humanoid mechs can do that to begin with so that puts it in league with the Crab, Whale, and Warhawk

We'll end this here, because you are convinced and so am I.


The Stalker has nothing to absorb side damage.

It is not a Dire Wolf, and having weapons mounted like one would kill the Stalker as it doesn't ridiculous 30+ DPS dakka builds or 70-80 gigaspike dual gauss + timberwolf laser vomit builds.

You do comprehend that right? That the Timber Wolf laser vomit - or 6x LLAS worth of firepower - fits on the Dire Wolf plus dual gauss.


The Mounts would be near the bottom of the torso. If you don't understand why that would destroy this mech, no amount of me re-typing it is going to help.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 April 2015 - 06:16 PM.