123 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

kapusta11, on 06 April 2015 - 01:34 AM, said:

How about we cap laser vomit at 30 damage for clan mechs as well so that only 2xERML+1xLPL can be fired at once? 0.5 sec delay, no big deal right?

There's a good argument to be made that the cLPL should be in the small energy heat group rather than large due to the synergy between the two, much like the ML and LPL. But more ghost heat is gross.

As I've said repeatedly, I don't even like this change. Just that its way better than merging the stalker or reducing the LL back to a 2 limit.

Quote

You're taking out of equation burn duration, Timberwolf can start torso twisting/bunny hopping before Stalker can fire all its weapons, only half in fact.

you realize that you can start firing the second group during the first group's burn, right? You don't have to fire, wait for the full duration, wait half a second, then fire the second group. Firing in two groups would effectively add .5-.7seconds to your overall burn. If I ran said stalker, I'd macro that s**t.

Anyways, while I have no issue with the stalker (and incidentally I was in that twitter discussion from the start strongly objecting to any nerf here) if Russ is going to nerf something this is by far the least destructive.

[Joseph Mallan]

MrZakalwe, on 05 April 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:

The issue is that the Stalker can do that while only poking the top of it's head over cover and having amazing hit boxes. If you don't realise how enormously powerful that it then I'm not sure how to explain it to you; the Dire Wolf has to risk serious return fire to do damage and the Stalker does not.

I love my Stalkers <3

6 LL is fun but I also still have a softspot for 4 PPCs which also still works surprisingly well mostly for the show ears, deliver 40pt precision alpha, lower ears factor; the enemy never really gets to fire back unless they charge you down.

So You come at the Stalker from the side! It has a lousy torso twist and is slow as heck. Lasers need time to burn so stay moving. Should work very well. It did wonders when the 6 PPC Stalker was a thing why would this be different. I am really getting tired of lazy people getting their knickers in a bunch cause something is tough to beat.... That includes you Russ.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 April 2015 - 03:29 AM.

[Vandul]

Clanners, please.

[kapusta11]

Wintersdark, on 06 April 2015 - 03:22 AM, said:

you realize that you can start firing the second group during the first group's burn, right? You don't have to fire, wait for the full duration, wait half a second, then fire the second group. Firing in two groups would effectively add .5-.7seconds to your overall burn. If I ran said stalker, I'd macro that s**t.

Anyways, while I have no issue with the stalker (and incidentally I was in that twitter discussion from the start strongly objecting to any nerf here) if Russ is going to nerf something this is by far the least destructive.

I was sure that GH delay starts after burn duration ends, good to know that I was wrong.

[EvilCow]

Let's assume that LLs already got nerfed, I would suggest clambois to preemptively start QQing about the next in the list, what's that? LPLs?

[Wintersdark]

kapusta11, on 06 April 2015 - 03:38 AM, said:

I was sure that GH delay starts after burn duration ends, good to know that I was wrong.

yeah. Notice that when you chainfire, there's no delay between beams, so you could chainfire 4 LL's as one continuous beam forever without triggering ghost heat. The delay starts the moment the beam starts. Laser chainfire kinda screws you out of even more DPS as a result, as there a <beam duration> delay between firing rather than the normal .5s.

I set up a macro to test this with an 8 erll DWF, and it could "chain" pairs of ERLL's .6s between beam starts without ghost heat.

Terrible build, but lolworthy at least.

[TB Freelancer]

I play both. I play the Warhawk a little and rarely touch the 4N now that the novelty has worn off. From practical experience the Warhawk is just better.

I'd give reasons but what's the point of arguing with theory crafting forum warriors who largely have zero practical experience piloting both mechs yet still have firmly entrenched beliefs one which is better?

Its just tough to debate people immune to reality.

[Reno Blade]

I don't want to nerf Stalkers or LL, but Imho the whole alpha strikes beeing limited by Ghost Heat is not strict enough.
I would prefere GH to start with >1 LLaser or >4 MLaser (clan and IS) aswell as any other weapon (AC5, PPC, Gauss, AC20 already is, AC10. LRMs, SRMs)...

Why? Because it's currently the best way to play with big alpha strikes where you have at least 3+SRM6A, 4+ML plus 2+LPulse or boating ACs or LRMs to be most efficient.

I'd prefere gameplay where a stock Cent (single AC10, single LRM10 and 2 ML) would be more efficient than any boated weapons of equal damage output/tonnage.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 05 April 2015 - 11:13 PM, said:

Yeah, but this isn't an IS vs. Clan issue.

Yes, it is an IS vs. Clan Issue.

8x MLAS = 40 damage, 39.60 heat with Ghost Heat Penalty (1.01 damage per 1 heat)
4x LLAS = 36 damage, 33.88 heat with Ghost Heat Penalty (1.08 damage per 1 heat)

6x CERMLAS = 42 damage, 36 heat - no Ghost Heat (1.17 damage per 1 heat)
3x CLPL = 39 damage, 37.20 heat with Ghost Heat Penalty (1.05 damage per 1 heat)



Take a look at that.

4x LLAS and 3x CLPLs are within 0.03 damage per heat of each other, with the LLAS requiring an extra 2 tons and 2 crits over it.


Then consider how well CLPL + CERMLAS function together, where you don't even need more CLPLs to work at 400-500m range and hit huge alpha numbers like 45 to 55.

Wintersdark, on 05 April 2015 - 11:20 PM, said:

After all, 4 LL is 33.88 heat, 4 cLPL is 59.2. (Pre quirks)

4x CLPL is 52 DAMAGE at 600m
4x LLAS is 36 DAMAGE at 450m.

That's why.


If you want to do over 50 damage with IS LLAS you need six of them.


How much heat is that?

6x LLAS is 68.46 heat at 450m.


Clearly worse than 4x CLPLs.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 April 2015 - 06:30 AM.

[Molossian Dog]

Kushko, on 05 April 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

...So why is it that Russ and some of the community are making such a fuss about the "dreaded" 54 damage alpha stalker that cant do a second alpha on cooldown without overheating?

Because the CW event saw the clamz getting their faces stomped.

And now they are looking for excuses. Emos gonna emo.

(That it was primarily a eccentric way how the CW matchmaker works and that clamz actually win more than they loose is glossed over on purpose. Forum politics, forum agendas, meh.)

Edited by Molossian Dog, 06 April 2015 - 06:33 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Molossian Dog, on 06 April 2015 - 06:31 AM, said:

Because the CW event saw the clamz getting their faces stomped.

And now they are looking for excuses. Emos gonna emo.

(That it was primarily a eccentric way how the CW matchmaker works and that clamz actually win more than they loose is glossed over on purpose. Forum politics, meh.)

Huh? Or:

"Clan Players" and "IS Players" are in many cases the same damned people. Anything that applies to "Clan Players" applies to "IS Players" too - so sweeping generalizations are both idiotic and insulting.

Anyways, Clan's won more than they lost, by a statistically irrelevant amount. 53% wins, regardless of whichever side is ahead, is as close to great faction vs. faction balance you'll ever see in a FvF PvP game.

And yeah, Clan's lost 50 worlds despite winning roughly half the matches, but as we all know, that was due to a wierdness in how the queues worked.

Posts like yours are both baseless and inflammatory. They serve no useful purpose.

Are some "clan" players going to cry about something, no matter what? Yes. Are some IS players going to cry about something, no matter what? Yes again. People always ***** an moan about everything, whether their issues are real or imagined.

[Asrrin]

I am sick to death of whiny clanners with more money than skill cry to daddy Russ every time they get butthurt by an IS build that can perform almost as well as their beloved Timbys and Doomcrows.

Stop nerfing every build the IS finds that can be competitive, and instead buff all the underperforming mechs to that level.

And I swear to all that is unholy, if you are going to swing the nerfbat on the 4N, then frickin nerf the timergod, doomcrow, and direwhale as well, because they are the gold standard by which any build has to compete with.

[Molossian Dog]

Wintersdark, on 06 April 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

...Posts like yours are both baseless and inflammatory. They serve no useful purpose...

Quite to the contrary. They do.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimatum X, on 06 April 2015 - 06:27 AM, said:

Yes, it is an IS vs. Clan Issue.

8x MLAS = 40 damage, 39.60 heat with Ghost Heat Penalty (1.01 damage per 1 heat)
4x LLAS = 36 damage, 33.88 heat with Ghost Heat Penalty (1.08 damage per 1 heat)

6x CERMLAS = 42 damage, 36 heat - no Ghost Heat (1.17 damage per 1 heat)
3x CLPL = 39 damage, 37.20 heat with Ghost Heat Penalty (1.05 damage per 1 heat)

Take a look at that.

4x LLAS and 3x CLPLs are within 0.03 damage per heat of each other, with the LLAS requiring an extra 2 tons and 2 crits over it.

Then consider how well CLPL + CERMLAS function together, where you don't even need more CLPLs to work at 400-500m range and hit huge alpha numbers like 45 to 55.

4x CLPL is 52 DAMAGE at 600m
4x LLAS is 36 DAMAGE at 450m.

That's why.

If you want to do over 50 damage with IS LLAS you need six of them.

How much heat is that?

6x LLAS is 68.46 heat at 450m.

Clearly worse than 4x CLPLs.

(trimmed 16 empty lines from your post for brevity)

Yup. It is. I never argued this, and we've had this talk before. Clan mid-range lasers are simply superior to IS midrange lasers. Both because Clan Lasers are simply better (lesser factor) and because IS doesn't have ERML's yet(major factor). To a lesser degree, Clam short ranged lasers are better too. On the other hand, IS has clear ERLL superiority, better PPC's (because they have normal PPC options as well as grossly over-hot ERPPC's that are terrible for both factions) and more importantly PPC velocity quirks making them actually usable weapons on some mechs. IS has *vastly* superior ballistics, even in the case of Gauss which, while somewhat heavier, is simply superior in every mech that can mount it.

There's pros and cons across the board.

So yeah, Clan's have better midrange lasers. But 53vs47% overall is pretty freaking close, so clearly it's not hurting IS too much.

Once Clan's get their much needed (imho) XL speed nerf when they lose a ST, things should be pretty close.

[Wintersdark]

Asrrin, on 06 April 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

I am sick to death of whiny clanners with more money than skill cry to daddy Russ every time they get butthurt by an IS build that can perform almost as well as their beloved Timbys and Doomcrows.

Stop nerfing every build the IS finds that can be competitive, and instead buff all the underperforming mechs to that level.

And I swear to all that is unholy, if you are going to swing the nerfbat on the 4N, then frickin nerf the timergod, doomcrow, and direwhale as well, because they are the gold standard by which any build has to compete with.

I'm not seeing anyone crying about the 4N in this thread. Probably someone, because there's always someone crying about anything.

I've been adamant from the start that the 4N should not be nerfed. On Twitter, there was a STRONG show of support from many Clan players along those same lines: The LL is fine, the Stalker is fine.

And, incidentally, I do think the Timberwolf and Stormcrow should be nerfed. Direwhale, not so much. It's got it's own set of weaknesses and is almost completely useless in CW as it stands.

[Averen]

Wintersdark, on 06 April 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

IS has clear ERLL superiority

We're not that far off on our opionions, but come on, you guys can't be so dense in this one detail, it's even written in this thread and a million others.
The ISERLL is effectively a worse, slightly further ranging equivalent of a CLPL, the CERLL is a laser with a range the IS does not posess.

Wintersdark, on 06 April 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

Direwhale, not so much. It's got it's own set of weaknesses and is almost completely useless in CW as it stands.

This one leaves me a bit confused thugh. The dire is more powerfull than any IS 100T mech by a mile. It's just not really needed in CW.

Edited by Averen, 06 April 2015 - 06:56 AM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I don't understand it either. The 4N is strong but I don't see it as a problem.

[Wintersdark]

Averen, on 06 April 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

We're not that far off on our opionions, but come on, you guys can't be so dense in this one detail, it's even written in this thread and a million others.
The ISERLL is effectively the worse equivalent of a CLPL, the CERLL is a laser with a range the IS does not posess.

The ERLL has an equal or longer range than the cERLL in over 70 IS mechs, thanks to quirks. Another more than 70 have higher Damage Per Heat after quirks.

Base weapon stats are irrelevant when more than 70 of your mechs have +range quirks, and more than 70 have -heat gen quirks.

Quote

This one leaves me a bit confused thugh. The dire is more powerfull than any IS 100T mech. It's just not really needed in CW.

More firepower, far less maneuverability. It's a substantial disadvantage. It does mean the Direwolf will generally win a one on one face tanking encounter with any other slow assault; but it's trivially easy to flank and tear apart. I'm not sure how you'd nerf it more; it's already got one of the worst twist amounts and twist speed on the field.

Rouken, on 06 April 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

I don't understand it either. The 4N is strong but I don't see it as a problem.

I'd say most reasonable Clan players don't see it as a problem. There's a couple vocal morons, but they'll cry about anything. Those folk exist on both sides, and really ought to be ignored.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 06 April 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

(trimmed 16 empty lines from your post for brevity)

I hate brevity!

Wintersdark, on 06 April 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

On the other hand, IS has clear ERLL superiority, better PPC's (because they have normal PPC options as well as grossly over-hot ERPPC's that are terrible for both factions) and more importantly PPC velocity quirks making them actually usable weapons on some mechs. IS has *vastly* superior ballistics, even in the case of Gauss which, while somewhat heavier, is simply superior in every mech that can mount it.

I think ERLLAS are very debatable.

9 damage, 1.25s burn, 675m? That becomes a better weapon with quirks but clan mechs have two clear solid options - a CLPL that can hit 660m with mod or CERLLAS for really extreme ranges and lighter weight (and head slot slotting which is pretty crazy, really).

PPCs are all a mess right now, and I'm not loading 7 ton weapons with a 90m deadzone in the current face-rush gameplay.

I think people over-glamorize IS ballistics. The AC 20 is the big boy here.


I'm trying to figure out what clan mech you can't fit a Gauss on that is over 50 tons.

SCR, HBR, SMN, TBR, GAR, WHK, DWF can all run Gauss builds. The Mad Dog can too but I think it's a bad platform for it.

Wintersdark, on 06 April 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

So yeah, Clan's have better midrange lasers. But 53vs47% overall is pretty freaking close, so clearly it's not hurting IS too much.

That isn't the point.

The point is that 4x LLAS is right around even vs. 3x CLPLs, it doesn't need a higher ghost heat mod.

When you throw CERMLAS in the picture and the fact the IS has literally NO answer for that weapon, increasing GH on LLAS is just pure crazy talk.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 April 2015 - 07:07 AM.

[Asrrin]

Wintersdark, on 06 April 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

I'm not seeing anyone crying about the 4N in this thread. Probably someone, because there's always someone crying about anything.

I've been adamant from the start that the 4N should not be nerfed. On Twitter, there was a STRONG show of support from many Clan players along those same lines: The LL is fine, the Stalker is fine.

And, incidentally, I do think the Timberwolf and Stormcrow should be nerfed. Direwhale, not so much. It's got it's own set of weaknesses and is almost completely useless in CW as it stands.

I'm glad you have this position, I'm just ranting because the people who brought it originally to Russ' attention where a bunch of butthurt clanners that were complaining it was out trading the timberwolf. And it always seems like a small cadre of the same players constantly pestering Russ on twitter about nerfing IS and buffing clans despite evidence to the contrary.