167 replies to this topic

[Chagatay]

alby910, on 05 April 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

Hi

I would like to know which are the best MECH modules for an LRM Boat . Also which are the best Assault Mechs for an LRM boat . Catapults are fine however they can't carry much ammo

Thanks

For clanners you really only have one choice in assault and that is Warhawk-B. You can run anywhere between 40-60 tubes using LRM10s/15s with a decent set of lasers for backup.

For IS you have several options again with 40-60 tubes in the assault category and all listed the capacity for some backup weapons. Battlemaster 1S (2x10s, 2x15s), Awesome 8V/R, King Crab 0000 are all fine choices.

I personally would probably go with either the Battlemaster 1S (good mobility more XL friendly then the other choices) or Awesome 8R (quirked for LRM 15 spam) both are at the entry level of the assault weight and give you more tonnage in drop decks as well.

[InRev]

Seph MacLeod, on 08 April 2015 - 06:31 PM, said:

[Redacted]

Except they're right.

I'm Marik. My faction really loves their LRMs, both in lore and in game. In CW, the Kuritas annihilated us repeatedly because a quarter of our teams would bring LRM boats and get trashed while a handful of us would try to carry them to no avail by using actually viable builds. The LRMers would do 400-800 damage (from 4 mechs, mind you) while the people with proper direct fire would be doing 1800-2400 or even 2800 damage.

The biggest thing we, as a faction, took away from fighting Kurita is that LRMs are an utter trash weapon against good players, up to the point that now the more serious drop callers don't even accept LRM mechs in their drops anymore (praise the Lord!).

[Stealth Fox]

InRev, on 08 April 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Except they're right.

I'm Marik. My faction really loves their LRMs, both in lore and in game. In CW, the Kuritas annihilated us repeatedly because a quarter of our teams would bring LRM boats and get trashed while a handful of us would try to carry them to no avail by using actually viable builds. The LRMers would do 400-800 damage (from 4 mechs, mind you) while the people with proper direct fire would be doing 1800-2400 or even 2800 damage.

The biggest thing we, as a faction, took away from fighting Kurita is that LRMs are an utter trash weapon against good players, up to the point that now the more serious drop callers don't even accept LRM mechs in their drops anymore (praise the Lord!).

I still find a use for them, I don't bank on them, but I find a use for them. Even if it is just getting a Sniper to GTFO for a bit.

MadWOPR, on 08 April 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

What the heck dude, you literally admit in your previous post "if they have AMS the 5 gets nullified even with in 150 feet. so .. still not amazing.. " which is basically proving the point that LRMs are inefficient usages of tonnage, and then you turn around and just bash our entire unit because you have some sort of grudge. A+ contribution to the discussion.

Also you should probably learn your Space Japan lore, Kurita is consistently less helpful than we are being here.

Yes, I admitted that LRMS work, but are not amazing at pinpoint attacks.
I still use them for when I see a nice red core on a mech but a little ways off, and I use them for other reasons, namely it is funny as hell to watch a team rush and then panic, break rush and find cover cause "OHMAGAWD DAH LRMS R HUR!" Screen shake, and ..well..that's about it..
How ever I have rarely ever seen anything other then troll logic, bullcrap and personal attacks on players with no actual discussion when ever particular members of Kurita come in to play.. one in this very thread tried to tell me I was wrong one time by ... insulting my signature post and saying it was by Nirvana or some crap. yeah..THAT was amazing and totally needed to be done.

[Johny Rocket]

YCSLiesmith, on 08 April 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

This is simply wrong.

say your mech has 75 armor and 25 hit points in every part of its body. Now I shoot an LRM volley that will do 100 points of damage, spread across the top of the mech. that's 20 to left arm, 20 to left torso, 20 to center torso, 20 to right torso, 20 to right arm. your mech is now in yellow armor, with all your weapons still viable. I fire again. you're now orange. again. now deep orange. it will take me five shots, give or take, to kill you. realistically thats entire minutes spent killing a single mech

now lets say I fire a 50 damage laser. two shots and a component is gone, along with any weapons on it. four shots to the two side torsos, vs. a clanner, and he's dead. in two shots an IS guy is dead. that's maybe 10-13 seconds depending on the exact weapon.

but wait, I can keep going! in the two minutes of your LRMs raining on some crab, I'm killing the crab, his atlas friend, oneshotting a couple of irritating lights, and oh look at that the match is over and we won.

now lets use a more realistic scenario, multiple mechs. say we've got two 'meta' wolverines, and an LRM 80 crab. they're in a deadly fight with an urbanmech who has the 100 life, and in fact all the stats mentioned above apply.

You, in the crab, fire a missile at the urbanmech. a hit! you are contributing! two laser shots later, the urbie has lost his center torso. we're all a part of this team, you think to yourself proudly.

but wait, what if you weren't there? oh, that's right, it still would have taken two laser shots. looks like your 20 damage to whatever component ended up cored out was irrelevant in this situation. you got 100 damage racked up on the board and are immediately firing at your next target, secure in the belief that you're an important part of the team, but in actual fact you did nothing for anyone this round. Your success is an illusion. you're basically a ghost player, as productive as an AFK direwolf and just as irritating to your teammates.

again with assumption. I don't volly large wads I chainfire smaller launchers with modules boosting rate of fire and I wreck things decently quickly. My 3F has 4 lrm15 but is sitting with no engine because I don't play it. I try hard for LOS and shorter range if I can get them, I sometimes over extend trying to do exactly that. When I get a good set up I work it, I will stay on them watching the paper doll untill I think they are almost done. If you wait for the target box to disappaer you have already wasted a lot of ammo on a dead mech. My fav boat is the KTO 18(C) which has a vicious rate of fire with a stream of lrm5s. Big spit wads are for very few maps. Chainfire is almost always better for staying consistently in the fight.
The other consideration is I try to play with my team even though there is little coordination. All I here from you is your prowess with lasers and how you are going to base the core facts of your argument on assumption proven logically false.
As proven by the scoreboard I hardly hit 1 mech a match. I welcome strong laser and gauss players on my team I don't want to be on a boat heavy team I want to be on a balanced team.
Answer me this, how is any damage to the enemy not a contribution to the team? We have already covered the 'magically even sand blasting of all my targets' theory.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 08 April 2015 - 06:46 PM.

[Tesunie]

YCSLiesmith, on 08 April 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:

lmao how is me saying 'don't use LRMs' and then talking about why you shouldn't use LRMs, without hyperbole or nonsense like appeals to 'let noobs be noobs!' off topic? You say that you play to have fun. that's fine. I, personally, am not a masochist. unlike you and your ilk, I don't get off on pain and suffering. Therefore, unusually it seems, I don't like to use LRMs, which are weapons for victims. please keep your weird fetish out of new player threads.

Let me help out here. The first post in this thread was from you. It mocked the OP saying something along the lines of "is this a joke thread". Go back. That post was removed. Probably because of it's irrelevancy to the topic. You can advise against LRM use, while still telling them how to use it, but you advise they don't. That's relevant. It's helpful. You would say your piece on why you don't feel LRMs are good, while at the same time informing the person how to use them if they decide to go through despite your reservations and advice against doing so. That is helpful and relevant.

Richter Kerensky, on 08 April 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

Self-selecting for matches where you do well in a bad mech doesn't make it a good mech. Case in point:



(Check out Sputty's damage, and what mech he was driving.)

Okay. Lets not pull up "selected screen shots". How about "statistical data" instead?

I wont call myself "the best player in the game". Far from it. But, here is the stats for my Stalker 3F:
K/D: 2.9
Damage per match: 521.35
Damage per ton per match: 6.13

Archived stats (mixed stats with several other builds, from the time the Stalker was released to the time new stats took over.)
K/D: 1.43
Damage per match: 380
Damaer per ton per match: 4.47

This is my mixed damage platform, with a combo between LRMs, lasers and SSRMs. Last I recalled, many people considered 5 damage per ton per match to be "good". My Stalker has exceeded that value since the new stats (and with me being more expierenced now than before).


Hunchback 4J:
K/D: 1.29
Damage per match: 405.8181
Damage per match per ton: 8.11

Still a mixed platform, and has retained this build since the new stats reset.

Now for my LRM stats: (For accuracy)
LRM5: 38%
LRM10: 43%
LRM15: 38%
LRM20: 35%
(I could break this down to damage per missile fired even, if desired, or even look at my other weapon systems for comparison... Such as lasers if you desire.)

PS: Kills per death is meaningless. All it takes is for someone to tap the target to it's death, even if you did 99% of the work on it.

Richter Kerensky, on 08 April 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

Again! High damage isn't an indicator of how well you're actually doing because LRMs spread damage everywhere and are poor at actually disabling or destroying mechs! Did you notice that you only had a single kill in the matches where you did 1000 and 800 damage? If you did that amount of damage in a mech that was using lasers or ballistics you'd almost certainly have three or four kills. You win the game by killing enemy mechs.

You think small again. You think only of personal glory and not team effectiveness. You actually don't have to deal damage to be effective with a team. Scaring someone into staying behind cover can be effective for a team. Just like having that one light mech who may deal very little damage provide that distraction to turn half the team around to deal with him, and then the rest of your team shoots them in the back and kill them.

Damage is not always a good indicator of effectiveness within a team. Neither are kills. Actually, no one stat can tell you how effective any player was within the team. That's something the team has to decide for themselves during the match.

One example: If all one person did was TAG the enemy, one at a time till they died, and did 0 damage (because dealing damage would reveal his position to the enemy), then he was possibly MVP of the team and resulted in the win because of his actions. (There are more examples one could produce.)

Also, it doesn't always take very much damage to drop enemy mechs, depending upon how focused your damage was and were it hit. So damage really isn't much of an indicator.

Kills isn't a good indicator as I've stated above, either because that is only recording the person to hits the target last and actually kills the target. It doesn't consider who dealt more damage to a vital component and did more work.

Even Assists isn't always a good indicator, as all someone has to do to gain an assist is deal 0.001 points of damage to the target. They could run by the entire enemy team, hit each with a single MG bullet, and gain 12 assists, and be useless to the team.

I've also have come across players that were great players, but very bad teammates. They didn't support their teams, but did massive damage. Being a good player doesn't even mean anything, if you can't work within the larger part of the team.

In the end, you have to remember that this is a game. People tend to play games for fun. Not all of us are playing to be competitive. This continued "competitive players do blah blah" isn't helpful. That's only relevant if one is or plans to become a competitive player.

Tractor Joe, on 08 April 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

If baps didn't get me my own spots and locks faster I wouldn't waste the tonnage.

Agreed with your post, but you are misinformed here from what I last knew. (which I guess I could be wrong, but if I am, please prove it so I know correctly?)

BAP will only decrease the time to gather data, not decrease the time to gain a missile lock. In makes you get the damage readout for your target faster. (Along with disabling ECM up close, extending sensor ranges, and detecting shut down mechs nearby.)

Fenrisulvyn, on 08 April 2015 - 05:35 PM, said:

And really, do you see the OP joining up or competing with comp teams like 228? Let him learn the game the way he wants, let him have fun the way he wants. I started out with LRM boats and turned out just fine. You guys made valid points about the ineffectiveness of LRMs at higher levels of play, so why are you still belaboring the point?

I too started out with LRMs. Of course, this was back in the days when the trial mechs were stock IS mechs (not the champions). I started out with the Hunchback 4J, and had fun with it. Tried out the other mechs, and wasn't thrilled with them. 4J is still in my stable of mechs, and I still do like my LRMs. Of course, I have experimented with all the weapons in the game, and I suggest everyone else experiment and learn every weapon available as well. (That includes LRMs, no matter what the "competitive" players wish to say about it.) It's good to experiment with different things, The more you experiment, the better a player you will become.

Fenrisulvyn, on 08 April 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

No. As I've already explained - LRM boating taught me a lot about the game and made me better pilot when I moved on to direct fire weps. Its wasn't unfair to me as a new player. You are entitled to your opinion but my direct experience tells me you are wrong.

I seem to have had a similar experience as you did. I feel I've turned out as a decent pilot overall. A lot of the lessons of LRMs are the same that other weapons have. And by using LRMs yourself, you see how they work. Seeing how they work tends to help one learn how to counter them. The more one knows in the game, the better they will be. This includes weapon types, maps, mech variants, etc.

Seph MacLeod, on 08 April 2015 - 06:31 PM, said:

Just abandon thread dude. the Kurita a.s.s.hats are here and no worth while discussion is going to happen with them around. You can find and kill them in Pub drop all you want with LRMs and tactics but they will still talk trash and troll. It's all they are good for.

Once again another thread goes down the crapper because Space Japan decides to act the exact opposite OF Japan.

Yup. It have over 70 new responses since last night. Most of it useless drivel that has nothing to do with the OP, and barely anything to do with LRM and how to use them.

But, I would like to mention it's not all of Kurita. There are a lot of very nice and reasonable Kuritains out there. It's only a select group of them that seems to be out doing this. Sad part is, they seem to think they are "helping people" when they are. In fact, all they are doing is actually derailing threads, spreading a lot of misinformation, and actually hindering new players from being able to ask their questions and get proper feedback and answers. (They could say their piece about LRMs, whle remaining helpful at the same time easily enough. It's called "I don't advise it, but if you are going to do it, this is how you do it, but I wouldn't recommended it." Of course, they could go into more depth on each side, how to use them and why they don't recommend them. Would then be a worth while post to read then.)


Well. I think I've said my peace here. It's a troll's bridge now. Guess I should unsubscribe from the thread. If you need me, just quote me. I'll be around I guess.

[Stealth Fox]

Tractor Joe, on 08 April 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

*as you beat your head against a brick wall*

Dude, Ignore the b-itch, hes a troll and he rolls with trolls, Stop feeding him, Ignore him, stop trying to have a discussion with him. You will get no where. If you want to simulate the topic, go talk to a rock and say back to your self "Nu-UH!" after every point you make to it, At least you can throw the rock afterword.

[Suzumiya Haruhi no Kerensky]

One of Little Harmony, on 08 April 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

This is the best LRM boat: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...90516d66f6de360

The LRM15s have artemis, so they core out mechs really hard, and there's 2160 lrms (aka potential damage score!) looking for a home! You have TWO tags, because atlases have this problem with tagging mechs with its low slung arms getting stuck on obstacles. For close in defense you have an AC/20, which is the most POWERFUL close-in weapon. Also, your back armor is really high so you don't have to worry about light mechs coring you out from the back. And don't forget the command console...so you can like command or something.

G'luck!

Looks really good!

[Stealth Fox]

alby910, on 05 April 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

Hi

I would like to know which are the best MECH modules for an LRM Boat . Also which are the best Assault Mechs for an LRM boat . Catapults are fine however they can't carry much ammo

Thanks

ok, listen here, you gotta know how to do LRMS the best, You seem to be on the IS side of things, so what i would suggest is a Catapult, two launchers (15s or so ..no reason for 20s at the moment), 4 Lasers (of your preference.) and think of using your LRMs as an assist, not the main weapon, ..should you fire them a lot? Oh every chance you get that you think may hit.. but don't look to them as your main damage dealers.

I've had a good bit of success going against the meta and cheese in my Mad Dog with 6 LRM5s and 5 CERMLs. Pay attention to the paper doll. if you see some intense center torso damage on the enemy.. chances are your LRMs are gonna suck for them.. if it is more on a shielded side? try your lasers.

Builds I can't really recommend, but you should play right beside if not a bit behind your main line to support fire and be close enough where the LRMs don't have to track for a freaken year to make contact. You still move with your team, you still push with your Assaults and you need to focus on the key targets..

Wide CTs, slow but powerful mechs, .. jackasses in the open.. you'll get it eventually. Just like I said.. dun rely on them..they are a supplement, and not a truely awesome one at that.. but frankly I like the ability to attack with out line of sight and over barriers rather then being stuck to LOS damage, I can't tell you how many kills I got just cause I saw a damaged mech out in no mans land who thought he was safe.

cheap? maybe.. Meta? no.. high ranks in damage? .. sometimes?

But it's fun in its own right.

not to mention all these "LRMs are garbage" people you encountered make everyone else think they are not being used any more.. which.. leaves them open.

BAP, Target Decay, U.A.V.s and a friend who can Narc for you or Tag is the best set up.

Edit: OH! .. don't forget Radar Deprivation! It can help you sneak-a-sneak around and not be hammered by fire your self. Pretty much a must have for Mechs any more frankly.

Edited by Seph MacLeod, 08 April 2015 - 07:10 PM.

[Tim East]

MadWOPR, on 08 April 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

Also you should probably learn your Space Japan lore, Kurita is consistently less helpful than we are being here.

I'm not sure there is a way to apply negative values in terms of "assistance rendered" in excess of what you already are. Maybe by spamming even more?

Tesunie, on 08 April 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

Let me help out here. The first post in this thread was from you. It mocked the OP saying something along the lines of "is this a joke thread". Go back. That post was removed. Probably because of it's irrelevancy to the topic. You can advise against LRM use, while still telling them how to use it, but you advise they don't. That's relevant. It's helpful. You would say your piece on why you don't feel LRMs are good, while at the same time informing the person how to use them if they decide to go through despite your reservations and advice against doing so. That is helpful and relevant.

This ^

Tesunie, on 08 April 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

Okay. Lets not pull up "selected screen shots". How about "statistical data" instead?

I wont call myself "the best player in the game". Far from it. But, here is the stats for my Stalker 3F:
K/D: 2.9
Damage per match: 521.35
Damage per ton per match: 6.13

Archived stats (mixed stats with several other builds, from the time the Stalker was released to the time new stats took over.)
K/D: 1.43
Damage per match: 380
Damaer per ton per match: 4.47

This is my mixed damage platform, with a combo between LRMs, lasers and SSRMs. Last I recalled, many people considered 5 damage per ton per match to be "good". My Stalker has exceeded that value since the new stats (and with me being more expierenced now than before).


Hunchback 4J:
K/D: 1.29
Damage per match: 405.8181
Damage per match per ton: 8.11

Still a mixed platform, and has retained this build since the new stats reset.

Now for my LRM stats: (For accuracy)
LRM5: 38%
LRM10: 43%
LRM15: 38%
LRM20: 35%
(I could break this down to damage per missile fired even, if desired, or even look at my other weapon systems for comparison... Such as lasers if you desire.)

PS: Kills per death is meaningless. All it takes is for someone to tap the target to it's death, even if you did 99% of the work on it.

Oooh, stats. I love stats. I'm not even as good a player as Tesunie here due to a nasty case of chronic impatience and a love of sub-optimal builds, but my shiny new Locust 1E sports a 1.75 k/d and a 15.22 damage/ton/match. It has better stats than my other Locusts because I played them during the steeper "this is my second chassis" part of my learning curve in the game. So I racked up a metric ton of deaths and only just before the 3M nerf exceeded a 1.0 k/d in it with a 10.26 damage/ton/match rating. Oddly, my w/l is almost identical between the two chassis at 1.17, which makes me think that whatever I'm doing is having the same overall impact on the matches I play. Well, I digress.

My point is, the gun you use is just flavor. Some are objectively better than others, but all of them can hypothetically kill. Even the flamer. One could put forth the argument that using disadvantageous weapons systems is the hallmark of the great and the insane, and that the only way to tell the difference is by the amount of empirical success attained.

Tesunie, on 08 April 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

Just like having that one light mech who may deal very little damage provide that distraction to turn half the team around to deal with him, and then the rest of your team shoots them in the back and kill them.

This is pretty much my shtick most of the time. Although, one minor point, damage and silliness are not mutually exclusive. See above numbers.

Tesunie, on 08 April 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

Damage is not always a good indicator of effectiveness within a team. Neither are kills. Actually, no one stat can tell you how effective any player was within the team. That's something the team has to decide for themselves during the match.

One example: If all one person did was TAG the enemy, one at a time till they died, and did 0 damage (because dealing damage would reveal his position to the enemy), then he was possibly MVP of the team and resulted in the win because of his actions. (There are more examples one could produce.)

Also, it doesn't always take very much damage to drop enemy mechs, depending upon how focused your damage was and were it hit. So damage really isn't much of an indicator.

Kills isn't a good indicator as I've stated above, either because that is only recording the person to hits the target last and actually kills the target. It doesn't consider who dealt more damage to a vital component and did more work.

Even Assists isn't always a good indicator, as all someone has to do to gain an assist is deal 0.001 points of damage to the target. They could run by the entire enemy team, hit each with a single MG bullet, and gain 12 assists, and be useless to the team.

I feel like the arguably "best" indicator of success is the "kill most damage" award, but the stat tracker doesn't actually show these anywhere. And there are totally other contributions that are not even counted, such as AMS assists, ECM coverage of allies, and tanking damage. I had a suggestion once for a tanking award when the new rewards first came out. Basically if an enemy was targeting you and took damage in one of the "back" locations from one of your allies, you should be awarded c-bills and xp, blah, blah, and stuff. Felt like it would make Atlas a little better. And lights too.

Tesunie, on 08 April 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

In the end, you have to remember that this is a game. People tend to play games for fun. Not all of us are playing to be competitive. This continued "competitive players do blah blah" isn't helpful. That's only relevant if one is or plans to become a competitive player.

Nail on the head right here. Games are for fun, kids.

Tesunie, on 08 April 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

I too started out with LRMs. Of course, this was back in the days when the trial mechs were stock IS mechs (not the champions). I started out with the Hunchback 4J, and had fun with it. Tried out the other mechs, and wasn't thrilled with them. 4J is still in my stable of mechs, and I still do like my LRMs. Of course, I have experimented with all the weapons in the game, and I suggest everyone else experiment and learn every weapon available as well. (That includes LRMs, no matter what the "competitive" players wish to say about it.) It's good to experiment with different things, The more you experiment, the better a player you will become.

I grew up on stock Commandos...

[Tesunie]

Seph MacLeod, on 08 April 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

Edit: OH! .. don't forget Radar Deprivation! It can help you sneak-a-sneak around and not be hammered by fire your self. Pretty much a must have for Mechs any more frankly.

I suspect that Radar Dep is looking forward to a nerf. Any module that starts to become an obvious "you must have this" has been nerfed so far. I suspect this will happen eventually with this module. It honestly is too powerful for what it does, and it's almost a must have on your mechs. (Or close to. Similar to how seismic use to be a "must have", and actually changed the meta a bit on it's own. Forced many light mechs that use to depend upon ambushing to take LLs and attack from a distance or be detected. Has since been nerfed.)

[Stealth Fox]

Tesunie, on 08 April 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

I suspect that Radar Dep is looking forward to a nerf. Any module that starts to become an obvious "you must have this" has been nerfed so far. I suspect this will happen eventually with this module. It honestly is too powerful for what it does, and it's almost a must have on your mechs. (Or close to. Similar to how seismic use to be a "must have", and actually changed the meta a bit on it's own. Forced many light mechs that use to depend upon ambushing to take LLs and attack from a distance or be detected. Has since been nerfed.)

Maybe, But frankly this entire balance system needs to be tossed out the window and redone from scratch, with Battle Values in mind instead. Weight regulation and blanket buffs/nerfs will not a balanced or good game make.

This games totally screwed when it comes to ANY future tech, They can't bring in IIC mechs without throwing the entire system to hell and they can't bring in IS omni without doing the same thing, Hello stagnation city.

[Tesunie]

Seph MacLeod, on 08 April 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

Maybe, But frankly this entire balance system needs to be tossed out the window and redone from scratch, with Battle Values in mind instead. Weight regulation and blanket buffs/nerfs will not a balanced or good game make.

This games totally screwed when it comes to ANY future tech, They can't bring in IIC mechs without throwing the entire system to hell and they can't bring in IS omni without doing the same thing, Hello stagnation city.

I could see a system based on C-bills, variant/chassis Elo, and stuff.

To sum the idea:
- The more C-bills your mech is worth, the higher it is valued in game.
- If certain gear/mechs are considered under preforming, they can have their C-bill calculations adjusted (such as the LBx).
- Your Elo on the mech would be like a score multiplier. The better your skills are in that mech, the more it multiplies your score.

This helps keep less optimized/customized mechs at lower scores, and more kitted out and tricked out mechs will have higher base scores. If you skills are good/bad enough with that mech, it will adjust your mechs value.

Overall, I agree with you. The current balancing system being used (though a decent system and not exactly a bad concept in general) will make it difficult to add in anything new to the game, such as Omni IS mechs and clan IIC variants. A new balancing system may be needed to progress the game. (But this is off topic now...)

[Stealth Fox]

Tesunie, on 08 April 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

I could see a system based on C-bills, variant/chassis Elo, and stuff.

To sum the idea:
- The more C-bills your mech is worth, the higher it is valued in game.
- If certain gear/mechs are considered under preforming, they can have their C-bill calculations adjusted (such as the LBx).
- Your Elo on the mech would be like a score multiplier. The better your skills are in that mech, the more it multiplies your score.

This helps keep less optimized/customized mechs at lower scores, and more kitted out and tricked out mechs will have higher base scores. If you skills are good/bad enough with that mech, it will adjust your mechs value.

Overall, I agree with you. The current balancing system being used (though a decent system and not exactly a bad concept in general) will make it difficult to add in anything new to the game, such as Omni IS mechs and clan IIC variants. A new balancing system may be needed to progress the game. (But this is off topic now...)

Agreed, let us turn this to other topics.

[Stealth Fox]

Void Angel, on 08 April 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

PS: Oh sweet mercy, not 'Battle Value' again. There needs to be a nursery for people who ride that hobby horse.

Yes, because weight restrictions work so amazingly to balance the clans top mechs so far.

Lets not even dare forget that 55 ton Doom Crow, It's climben in your windows, Snatchen your Sphere mechs up, tryen to **** em. But it's got a Battle Value similar to the Atlas. ...hmmmmm.. I wonder why they did that..

[M E X]

Nik Reaper, on 05 April 2015 - 04:53 PM, said:

With all said about LRM boats still standing, here, the lrm god : http://mwo.smurfy-ne...272d184bd68a127 , you just don't get more lrms then this.

You have overlooked the Inner Sphere HIGHLANDER !
In one of them you can put 2 LRM20 and 2 LRM15 for a total of 75 missile lauchchers, although you only get tubes for 60 from the chassis so 2 LRM 20 and 2 LRM10 will be a better choice.

But I prefer the King Crab with 4 LRM15 in the side torso BESIDE the head, as it can lauch the missiles above the head of a mech in front of it.
Many mechs with missile hardpoints, which have them in the arms or low in the torso locations, will shoot their missiles into the back of a ally standing before you, so better use these for SRM instead of LRM.

[YCSLiesmith]

Tractor Joe, on 08 April 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

again with assumption. I don't volly large wads I chainfire smaller launchers with modules boosting rate of fire and I wreck things decently quickly. My 3F has 4 lrm15 but is sitting with no engine because I don't play it. I try hard for LOS and shorter range if I can get them, I sometimes over extend trying to do exactly that. When I get a good set up I work it, I will stay on them watching the paper doll untill I think they are almost done. If you wait for the target box to disappaer you have already wasted a lot of ammo on a dead mech. My fav boat is the KTO 18(C) which has a vicious rate of fire with a stream of lrm5s. Big spit wads are for very few maps. Chainfire is almost always better for staying consistently in the fight.
The other consideration is I try to play with my team even though there is little coordination. All I here from you is your prowess with lasers and how you are going to base the core facts of your argument on assumption proven logically false.
As proven by the scoreboard I hardly hit 1 mech a match. I welcome strong laser and gauss players on my team I don't want to be on a boat heavy team I want to be on a balanced team.
Answer me this, how is any damage to the enemy not a contribution to the team? We have already covered the 'magically even sand blasting of all my targets' theory.

ok first of all, what does your volleying large wads of missiles vs. chainfiring small streams of missiles do to change the equation here, other than make AMS actually viable against you? the missiles still spread out. the numbers were made up to be big and round for clarity, but it could have worked with 5 where 1 damage was spread out across a body, or 25 where 5 damage was spread out, or 14.3 damage for all I care. it was just illustrating a point about damage spread.

the rest of your words are not really to the point at all, who cares HOW you get set up? the only salient points here are that LRMs cant target specific components, and spread damage out. that's it.

as for your ONLY GOOD QUESTION, how does damage become 'worthless?' how come some damage is meaningful and other damage isn't? the answer is simple. the only damage that matters is damage that contributes to the destruction of a component. if a component isn't destroyed, damage it took had no impact in the match. if a component is destroyed by someone else and it took X shots to break it, but would have taken X shots to break it even without you, the contribution you made is worthless. you didn't save another teammate time or heat or ammo, so you didn't meaningfully help. Only when you do enough damage to make the destruction of a component faster did you help, and even then, all the damage you dealt to components that were not destroyed was wasted.

if i shoot a guy in the left torso, get it down to red, and then you get an amazing headshot and he dies, my damage was wasted. I didn't actually help, in that scenario. LRMs always waste damage, because no one ever loses all their components. it's not possible the way the game is set up.

[JC Daxion]

Romeo Deluxe, on 08 April 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

Can we stop with the Elo-peening? I saw a post from someone analyzing this notion of competitive play and he concluded that at any given time there are only 8 - 10 competitive groups in the entire game. Most people will never join a unit just like in the last 15 years of MMO history most of the gamers will never join a guild let alone a self proclaimed competitive guild. How do you keep your units numbers low? Advertise you are a competitive guild.

This is the exact problem here, and this is exactly why i said it was trolling.. This thread has Zero to do with the merits of LRM's on higher level play, and was about advice on how to make an LRM boat.. Which works in many levels of this game by players with knowledge and what i would call the "mean" average. The majority of the player base, playing the majority of the matches, the majority of the weekend warriors.. The Young, the old, the casual, the ones that make up the majority of any game that lasts a long time on the internet in these online days.

They might not be the quickest people, or ever be able to play at the top level, but that does not completely invalidate them, Nor the players they play with.

i like many could post tons of pics of LRM mechs with many kills, and good scores, being in the top 3 on the team playing pugs. Does that make me awesome? no, but it does mean i can help a team win a match and have fun playing the mech I want. The fact is, they can help teams win games, and for many they play them much better than other styles. I am probably best at brawling.. I really enjoy that aspect of the game, but give me long range weapons and my games are totally up and down. My twitch just isn't always the best and for some, that is the best they will ever do, no mater if the play 100 matches or 10k matches. My Brawling is probably my best style and i regularly have pretty good games. LRM's I can use fairly consistently too in combo builds as i always have back up weapons. Which to me is a prime way to build them, and as the OP was asking about an LRM assault, as there are bad ways to build them, just like you can make a mech that plays well, and is fun, and helps a PUG win.

If they didn't then no one would play them because noone would ever get kills, or get decent damage, and they would move on. But it is complete BS LRM's can't teach you to play well.

They can teach you about position, to get LOS while being hidden, Or be in places that a mech can't move just a small amount and not be hit.

Teach you how to push just behind the front line brawlers, lobbing missiles over their heads, as they do the dance with other mechs, while the lights harass them.

they can teach you how to play in with the brawlers to take up damage, and still use your weapons.. Especially when to step into a heated brawl when mechs are running HOT, and people are on timer heat cool downs, so aren't using all there weapons anyway, so that huge alpha isn't gonna happen. But a pair of SRM 6's with 4ML's on a stalker, that just moved past LRM rack range is now in the thick of things, and can be a higher priority target, taking the heat off that medium or two, and turn that encounter from a one or two mech loose on your side, to a 3 mech loss on the enemy team. turning the tide of battle

As a ploy, to hope that some people decide to take a charge at the LRM mechs, thinking they have no short range weapons while the other team can't get locks on you as you are under ECM, and don't realize you have back up weapons and can brawl a bit. And even better when your team is ready to defend, as they try to take down what they think are defenseless mechs and instead end up being lured into a trap and get crushed.

Sent with a fast flank team, to hit them from behind as we know that nothing can get your attention quicker than the Incoming alarm, especially when they think they are under ECM, but one guy is tagged.. when they turn to attack, the team pushed and they are crushed in the middle.

Get you into the fast skirmisher game, the fast flankers, or capers when playing conquest. Rush in and grab a cap, or chase some mechs out of one, and while you are capping, and they are fleeing, a light is hot on their heals, and you are still raining down LRM's while you up cap and they ran around a corner, but your light bud has the lock, and your missiles are landing and wreaking havoc and hopefully enough to let your bud drop him with ease.

When a player is brawling a dire, or other heavy/assault, especially in a light.. harassing them, and their buddies rain down rounds from a quirked Cat dropping 30 rounds, 3 times in just seconds opening up a hole in the armor, while that light with a pair of pulses targets that open hole and drops that mech.. which is why those LRM boats don't always have lots of kills, but high numbers.. My 4G with some SL's and machine guns slamming the mech at 50m is gonna get that kill almost every time, but to think the 200 extra damage rained down did not help me take down that dire is just silly.

I could go on and on how playing a well played LRM mech, is helping you learn the game, and is completely viable in just about every match i have ever played in a pug. Have their been matches they weren't? of course, but i can also say that about any meta mech, build from any time in the last 2 years..


That is why i said it was trolling.. If you wan't a topic about the merits of LRM's and why the suck, and why they are bad for newbies, go make one.. heck, Make a guide and get it sticked in the guides section, and any time anyone asks any question about LRM's on this board.. Just pop in, say don't use um, and link it.. for the rest, for those that want to use them, do use them, and help teams win using them.. Let those people help people learn to use LRM's effectively, because no mater how many times you say they are worthless, the numbers prove they can be used effectively. Heck even PGI's own data, shows that the reason why they don't change them for competitive use, is because they are in a good place for a vast majority of the games, and tweaking them for such a small portion of the community would over power them for the masses.

YCSLiesmith, on 09 April 2015 - 03:05 AM, said:

if i shoot a guy in the left torso, get it down to red, and then you get an amazing headshot and he dies, my damage was wasted. I didn't actually help, in that scenario. LRMs always waste damage, because no one ever loses all their components. it's not possible the way the game is set up.

a prime example of not understanding the vast majority of the games/player base... I have seen more glowing red sticks walking around than i can count...

But for the record, you realize in saying that, if someone shot a mech in the right torso and did 100 damage with a gauss, and i was behind the mech, took off it's left rear armor and dropped it, your gauss rifle had zero to do with that mech dying.

But i know i've watched LRM's open holes on a mech i have been brawling in my 4G, and i get the one shot pop.. In fact, my 4G, is my best one shot mech.. something about it, thing gets 4 kills and around 225-250 all the time, open hole specialist, and often it's due to LRM's making them

Edited by JC Daxion, 09 April 2015 - 05:00 AM.

[Stingray Productions]

Tractor Joe, on 08 April 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

My Stalker 5M calls BS on your opinion

It always comes back to the same thing. It's the pilot, not the mech. Some of the best pilots can make "opinioned" week mechs stomp on other mechs. And everyone has a different play style.

Oh, and good games there tractor joe. If I see you in a match, I'll for sure be lookin' for rocks to hide behind

[Harvey Batchall Kerensky at Law]

At this point, OP has more than enough information to decide which camp he wants to be in.

Many of us have given consise, actual, common sense reasonings as to why LRMs are an inefficient use of tonnage and promote bad habits and gameplay. It's not even a debated fact among players who are at the top of this game.

The other camp has written long winded dissertations filled with anecdotes and 'best case' scenarios about how you can make this bad weapon work, and how it's ok to not strive to be good at the game. This is also the group with an obvious anti NKVA agenda and "troll" accusations (about derailing the thread, while derailing the thread themselves when it suits).

Go ahead and decide which kind of player you want to be, OP, and take what you will. You want to play LRMs, even after all this? Then pick one of the builds spread around here and go to town, but if you're ever feeling that you're not really doing what you could be, or finding your team loses when your score is so high, then we are giving you the most likely reason as to why that's happening. Be better than the brown sea, OP.

Edited by MadWOPR, 09 April 2015 - 06:36 AM.

[YCSLiesmith]

also people keep talking about 'higher level play' but it's the same game all the way through. Would you tell a guy teaching someone chess 'no dude don't talk to him about how the knight is one of the most versatile and important pieces, if he wants to just use pawns thats fine, hes new let him have fun' or would you look and say, yes, chess is a game of strategy and it is a good idea to learn some of that strategy at all levels of play? because I'm in the latter camp, I like to win and play with winners and against winners, and so, purely selfishly, I'm trying to help new players not make bad choices. I'm not demanding that the OP train at 100x the earth's gravity in a hyperbaric mechwarrior chamber, or that he join a unit that will require six hours a day or he's kicked out. I'm just trying to encourage people to use good weapons and play with some awareness, because this game is misery when you're not any good.

As for LRM discussion being 'off topic' what do you want from this thread? The OP asked for the best LRM boats. I feel it would be dishonest to tell him the actual best LRM boats, because the subtext of that request was that he wanted to be effective with them and that isn't possible. It's like if a guy said 'hey im joining the military, whats the best airsoft gun to take to iraq.' it would be really irresponsible, in that instance, to actually recommend airsoft guns to the dude.