19 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Most of us truly fanatical Battletech Junkies (aka those who started with the Tabletop game, and the only Video Game option was Crescent Hawks Inception) have a pretty soft spot for the Unseens, like the Warhammer, Marauder and Phoenix Hawk. I generally liked the Project Phoenix redesigns (even if the back story for it was so ridiculous as to be laughable)

But for those of us playing Succession War games, they didn't do a lot of good. I started drawing up versions of them, trying to capture much of the feel of the original but with obvious cues to the Phoenix designs. Anyone else ever try to redesign them?
GRF-1N
[IMG]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll243/killerpeaches7/IMG_0011.jpg[/img]
http://i290.photobuc...s7/IMG_0011.jpg

RFL-3N
[IMG]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll243/killerpeaches7/Rifleman.jpg[/img]
http://i290.photobuc...s7/Rifleman.jpg

STK-3DI (not an unseen, just a chassis that deserved an upgrade, something MWO obviously agreed with, lol. My custom version that dropped the LRMs to upgrade the Large Lasers to PPCs)
[IMG]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll243/killerpeaches7/STL-Stalker3-Copy2.jpg[/img]
http://i290.photobuc...lker3-Copy2.jpg

links are in case the image loader didn't work (doing this over my Motorola Photon, so who knows?)

Opinions, your designs, etc?

[Bishop Steiner]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 July 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Most of us truly fanatical Battletech Junkies (aka those who started with the Tabletop game, and the only Video Game option was Crescent Hawks Inception) have a pretty soft spot for the Unseens, like the Warhammer, Marauder and Phoenix Hawk. I generally liked the Project Phoenix redesigns (even if the back story for it was so ridiculous as to be laughable)

But for those of us playing Succession War games, they didn't do a lot of good. I started drawing up versions of them, trying to capture much of the feel of the original but with obvious cues to the Phoenix designs. Anyone else ever try to redesign them?
GRF-1N
[IMG]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll243/killerpeaches7/IMG_0011.jpg[/img]
http://i290.photobuc...s7/IMG_0011.jpg

RFL-3N
[IMG]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll243/killerpeaches7/Rifleman.jpg[/img]
http://i290.photobuc...s7/Rifleman.jpg

STK-3DI (not an unseen, just a chassis that deserved an upgrade, something MWO obviously agreed with, lol. My custom version that dropped the LRMs to upgrade the Large Lasers to PPCs)
[IMG]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll243/killerpeaches7/STL-Stalker3-Copy2.jpg[/img]
http://i290.photobuc...lker3-Copy2.jpg

links are in case the image loader didn't work (doing this over my Motorola Photon, so who knows?)

Opinions, your designs, etc?

yup, looks like the image loader didn't work. Darn it..........

also.......
WSP-1A
http://i290.photobuc...G_0006-Copy.jpg

and one of my fave Star League designs......
MON-67
http://i290.photobuc...s7/IMG_0009.jpg

I've also done versions of the Phoenix Hawk, Shadow Hawk, Wolverine, Archer, Stinger, Locust, Crusader, Valkyrie and a few "improved" versions of other mechs like the Sentinel. Still working on making satisfying versions of the Battlemaster, Wahammer (Project Phoenix version SUCKS), T-Bolt and Marauder. Gotta admit I think the Phoenix versions of the BLR, MAD and T-Bolt are darn hard to top.

[Bad Syntax]

All of them were redesigned, and the new ones don't look too bad. They came out in TRO:Phoenix, with variants drawn even. You can find the images on the site in my sig (or type "goodsects WHM-6R" or whatever into google), or just google,

Yours aren't bad though, the warhammer/archer/rifleman are my favorite units.

[ChapeL]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 July 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Most of us truly fanatical Battletech Junkies (aka those who started with the Tabletop game, and the only Video Game option was Crescent Hawks Inception) have a pretty soft spot for the Unseens, like the Warhammer, Marauder and Phoenix Hawk. I generally liked the Project Phoenix redesigns (even if the back story for it was so ridiculous as to be laughable)

But for those of us playing Succession War games, they didn't do a lot of good. I started drawing up versions of them, trying to capture much of the feel of the original but with obvious cues to the Phoenix designs. Anyone else ever try to redesign them?
GRF-1N
[IMG]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll243/killerpeaches7/IMG_0011.jpg[/img]
http://i290.photobuc...s7/IMG_0011.jpg

RFL-3N
[IMG]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll243/killerpeaches7/Rifleman.jpg[/img]
http://i290.photobuc...s7/Rifleman.jpg

STK-3DI (not an unseen, just a chassis that deserved an upgrade, something MWO obviously agreed with, lol. My custom version that dropped the LRMs to upgrade the Large Lasers to PPCs)
[IMG]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll243/killerpeaches7/STL-Stalker3-Copy2.jpg[/img]
http://i290.photobuc...lker3-Copy2.jpg

links are in case the image loader didn't work (doing this over my Motorola Photon, so who knows?)

Opinions, your designs, etc?

I like these, especially the Stalker and Rifleman. I don't think the Battlemaster in any form will ever do it for me.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bad Syntax, on 01 July 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

All of them were redesigned, and the new ones don't look too bad. They came out in TRO:Phoenix, with variants drawn even. You can find the images on the site in my sig (or type "goodsects WHM-6R" or whatever into google), or just google,

Yours aren't bad though, the warhammer/archer/rifleman are my favorite units.

YEs, I have Project Phoenix, and all those designs are specifically post 3065 cannon that even in the literature is stated as being completely redesigned from the originals. SO they don't really scratch the itch for those of us who enjoy playing PRE-Clan Invasion BT, ya know?

Bull Frog, on 01 July 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

I like these, especially the Stalker and Rifleman. I don't think the Battlemaster in any form will ever do it for me.

I got a REALLY rough Battlemaster concept, but kinda hard to ever be satisfied since the original is pretty much perfect.

[Beazle]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 July 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

YEs, I have Project Phoenix, and all those designs are specifically post 3065 cannon that even in the literature is stated as being completely redesigned from the originals. SO they don't really scratch the itch for those of us who enjoy playing PRE-Clan Invasion BT, ya know?

This is very much the truth. I was very disappointed when i saw inside that particular TRO and saw crap like rotary autocannons on them.

[shane jerricho]

Great work on those! I really dig the Rifleman and the Mongoose.

[SOGNeon]

the "redesigned new mechs" was an excuse for the unseen being out of circulation for so long. they also made it into TRO 3039 #35121, however the phoenix section of 3039 anacronisticly merges both vintages. a cursery reading, it looks like the stats are true to the unseen from my first edition books, however they reference the "design changes" 21 years into the future... this perhaps was to get around stipulations of the lawsuit, but long ago us players (especially ones like me who have a sizable contengent of unseen) pointed out all fasa SHOULD have needed to do was alter the graphics (not being a lawyer, I have heard it is between 10% and 15%), and give ral partha new specs for those models to get around the problem in the first place instead of having to come up with stories and changes to explain why we continued to hear reference to the names of those mechs but no longer saw them.

between the write ups of 3025 and 3039 the background info changes a bit... new notable mechwarriors, format is significantly different, varients are written up differently but appear to still hold the same basic info.

[ScrapIron Prime]

The redesign of the Wolverine was excellent, in my opinion, and even the new Marauder design doesn't look bad.

[Skadi]

Seeing as you use photobucket, just click on the IMG code option under the imagine and hit ctrl V and itle load the imagine properly

[Hubelwutz]

i - as a designer - adore those designs. Most of them are really nice shaped and even if they're not 100% congruent to the datas of the mech i really must say, that the person who drew them is knowing his (or her) art. The only thing i could recommend is ...

...get some good pens! >: O

Really... spend a little bit of Money even into grey-tones. Buy some "copics" or even the cheaper version "Alpha (marker)" - i use them and it improves your works about 100%. ;-)

Anyway - good stuff sir. Please go on.

Edited by Hubelwutz, 25 July 2012 - 04:22 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Hubelwutz, on 25 July 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

i - as a designer - adore those designs. Most of them are really nice shaped and even if they're not 100% congruent to the datas of the mech i really must say, that the person who drew them is knowing his (or her) art. The only thing i could recommend is ...

...get some good pens! >: O

Really... spend a little bit of Money even into grey-tones. Buy some "copics" or even the cheaper version "Alpha (marker)" - i use them and it improves your works about 100%. ;-)

Anyway - good stuff sir. Please go on.

I actually have to avoid copics. Their chemical smell is so strong it sets off my asthma. I do have full sets of gray scales (warm and cool) from blicks line though. But many of my drawings happen when I least expect.... and don't have my good stuff.

[Skylarr]

All of the Unseen have been redesigned. You can find the new images in the Technical Readout: Project Phoenix.

[Star Ace]

I am unclear, however, whther the re-designs are "legally backwards-compatible." For instance, on the new 3039 the text about them is "vintage", and it says that some of the designs were pretty popular, even during the sucession wars. I know "it's just a game", so I am probably overthinking it, but what I really want to konw is if the re-designed 'Mechs appearance (minis/tokens) are "legal" to use with the old 3025 variants. The wording in the 3039 TRO makes it seem as if the redesign was a future thing. Meanwhile, what is the "legal" model/apperance/design of the old Unseen 'Mechs? I wish they just didn't even mention the redesign (or try to align it to the background story) so that the newer re-designs could be used in lieu of the old variants.

If anybody has any suggestions, please let me know. If there is no MAD-3R proper design after a certain year, how are we supposed to use it in the previous years when it was supposed to be common?

And the Unseen epithet is quite inaccurate, considering how often seen some of these 'Mechs were.

All I am asking for is a "legal" miniatures/tokens that could be used for these 'Mechs during the 3025 era. Your opinions would be most welcome.

Edited by Star Ace, 01 August 2012 - 05:27 AM.

[Arctic Fox]

Star Ace, on 01 August 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

I am unclear, however, whther the re-design is "legally backwards-compatible." For instance, on the new 3039 the text about them is "vintage", and it says that some of the designs were pretty popular, even during the sucession wars. I know "it's just a game", so I am probably overthinking it, but what I really want to konw is if the re-designed minis are "legal" for use for the old 3025 variants. The wording in the 3039 TRO makes it seem as if the redesign was a future thing. Meanwhile, what is the "legal" model/apperance/design of the old Unseen 'Mechs? I wish they just didn't even mention the redesign (or try to align it to the background story) so that the newer re-design can be used in lieu of the old variants.

If anybody has any suggestions, please let me know. If there is no MAD-3R proper design after a certain year, how are we supposed to use it in the previous years when it was supposed to be common?

And the Unseen epithet is quite inaccurate, considering how often seen some of these 'Mechs were.

All I am asking for is a "legal" miniatures/tokens that could be used for these 'Mechs during the 3025 era. Your opinions would be most welcome.

The Project Phoenix 'Mechs are not a retcon; the post-3060s variants use Reseen art, but the original variants still use the Unseen designs and look like they did before. So, if you must have the correct miniature for each 'Mech, you will have to get the old Unseen miniatures to use them. However, since BattleTech is not one of those games that force you to use correct miniatures for everything, you can always just substitute the Reseen minis for the older variants, which seems to be what most people are doing.

It should be noted that according to the BattleTech Line Developer, Catalyst actually are seriously considering retconning the appearance of the original Unseens to completely new art, which will apparently be closer in looks to the Primitive Unseens we are now seeing in XTROs dealing with the Age of War than to the Project Phoenix designs.

[Dejanigma]

I would give all my space bux to pilot the Marauder gundam.

[Star Ace]

Arctic Fox, on 01 August 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

The Project Phoenix 'Mechs are not a retcon; the post-3060s variants use Reseen art, but the original variants still use the Unseen designs and look like they did before. So, if you must have the correct miniature for each 'Mech, you will have to get the old Unseen miniatures to use them. However, since BattleTech is not one of those games that force you to use correct miniatures for everything, you can always just substitute the Reseen minis for the older variants, which seems to be what most people are doing.

It should be noted that according to the BattleTech Line Developer, Catalyst actually are seriously considering retconning the appearance of the original Unseens to completely new art, which will apparently be closer in looks to the Primitive Unseens we are now seeing in XTROs dealing with the Age of War than to the Project Phoenix designs.

Thank you; I take it you mean that if you are to use a MAD-3R, you just find an old "banned design" mini/token (of courses minis are not required to play, but in case you would want to have an "accurate" representation of your 'Mechs.) It does make finding those difficult, since they are no longer in production, and are sometimes overpriced (or at least, it's not the kind of money I would be eager to pay for them.) I didn't know this was what they were thinking of-to my mind, they just made them disappear prior to being reseen, which was quite odd to me.
So I guess the banned designs are "legal" for 3025 play "until" they officially re-design them, as you suggested they might in the future; thanks for this explanation, once more.

[Sidney]

Star Ace, on 01 August 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

Thank you; I take it you mean that if you are to use a MAD-3R, you just find an old "banned design" mini/token (of courses minis are not required to play, but in case you would want to have an "accurate" representation of your 'Mechs.) It does make finding those difficult, since they are no longer in production, and are sometimes overpriced (or at least, it's not the kind of money I would be eager to pay for them.) I didn't know this was what they were thinking of-to my mind, they just made them disappear prior to being reseen, which was quite odd to me

Short story: That's mostly correct. If you want to be accurate with minatures you have to go hunting on eBay for copies or the originals from nearly 20 years ago. The 'mechs exist, they didn't 'disappear' exactly- instead, FASA (and FanPro and Catalyst thereafter) simply don't produce any books with the artwork in it, and Ral Partha doesn't produce minatures for them.

The long story:
When FASA created Battletech, like most other comapnies entering the genre wanted to attract fans by using recognizable designs. They licenced the designs' artwork from a company that was producing minatures for 'Macross' in Japan around '81. The rights to the 'Unseens' are complicated to say the least- you can hit Google up if you're really curious, but essentially the rights are being/have been disputed between no less than three seperate Japanese companies in Japan for a couple of decades. FASA licenced from one of the three.

Later, Harmony Gold licenced from one of the other companies to bring Macross to N. American as 'Robotech'. Things were confusing for about ten years after that point.

In the mid 90s, "Exosquad" was a TV series that produced a line of action figures. One of their 'Exo squad' walking tanks bore a strong resemblence to FASA's Mad Cat and FASA threatened to sue. Unfortunately, the company that owned Exo Squad was, as I understand it, in turn owned by Harmony Gold.

So Gold, to protect one of their 'kid brother' company fought back by threatening FASA with a lawsuit over what is now known as the "Unseen". Not all of the original licenced designs were contested (Like the Ostscout which is apparently from 'Crusher Joe')- only the ones that were licenced to FASA and Gold.

I've heard that FASA lost the case, I've also heard FASA simply couldn't afford a lengthly court battle. In the end, FASA submitted and agreed to no longer use the <i>artwork</i>. Fearing similiar lawsuits, FASA dropped *all* licenced artwork and 3rd party work. The Ostscout and...Thunderbolt (I think) were some of them. Others include newer ones that FASA didn't exactly own after hiring a 3rd party to create artwork for them (Like the Clan 'mech Behemoth/Stone Rhino).

In the end, Jaime Wolf of the Wolf's Dragoons still uses the iconic, original, 'unseen' Archer that looks just like a suit in Robotech/Macross- but no artwork and minatures are being produced for it.

Hence the term the 'Unseens'. They're there, they exist, and people can certainly see them 'in universe'...the fans don't just have any new publications that feature what they look like.

Because just as many fans are against 'retconning' them and pernamently changing their appearance by giving them new artwork as those that are, FASA tried to appeal to both by leaving the artwork as it was and produced new versions with updated technology. These designs were built from scratch, at new factories and the aforementioned technology- leading to a similiar, but different (enough) look to them. This is known in the universe as 'Project Phoenix' and they are known in the community as 'reseens'. (They are being shown again). Some fans, predictably like them, others hate them with a passion as a personal insult to the originals, and others are half a dozen, six of another.

About 4~5 years ago, Catalyst inquired with their lawyers. It looked like the lawsuit was no longer an issue- the details aren't exactly known. Suffice it to say, they thought all the paper work was kosher to use them again. So they did. This included the surprised reveal of "Mechwarrior 3015" (now known as Mechwarrior Online) which featured a Warhammer.

However, some company that Catalyst wouldn't name threatened a lawsuit- over a 'secret' agreement FASA made back during the original court battle with Harmony Gold.

IGN, however, state that it's Harmony Gold who threatened them with a cease and desist letter if they didn't take down the 3015 Trailer. You can read about it on their site here: http://pc.ign.com/ar.../1021438p1.html

So... we're back at the "Unseen" again.

To make matters worse, Topps- who actually owns Battletech and licences it to Catalyst has taken FASA's old stance and has dropped any design that they don't directly own outright- so while <i>most</i> of the unseen had 'returned', they're gone again.

The so-called "Preseens" are the Prototypes of the original Unseens that are slowly being added to the game as the older history is being fleshed out. Like the "Reseens" they use new, original artwork that is similiar but different enough from the originals that they can be used without fear of a court battle.

Interestingly enough, from what I've heard, the original company that licenced the designs to Harmony Gold lost their battle in Japan and the judge ruled they never had them- which Harmony Gold never had them in the first place.However, licences when you cross borders gets tricky, and Gold has/had an agreement to 'exclusive rights in N.America' or something to that effect.

Take that with a grain of salt. Twenty plus or so years of court battles is a bit more heavy reading than i care to do. Most of it's available online.

When you get right down to it, there are a few designs' artwork that Catalyst (and Piranha) can't or won't use.

[rerog fx]

Hi,

I try to remodel some mechs.
Now I want to make a Warhammer but I want to know is it to close to the Macross-design?
Next step will be 3D-printing.



Regards

[Angel Eyes]

When I was younger, I never realized that Robotech and Battletech were separate, I knew they were different stories/worlds but assumed they were related because of the mech designs. Funny..the main reason I even got into Battletech was because I had watched Robotech. And I was looking forward to playing the Wasp and Stinger in MWO I guess I wont get to.