28 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

When Clanners would rather have an Urbie than an Adder, they make the Adder even Sadder.

[Apnu]

Marc von der Heide, on 08 April 2015 - 03:11 AM, said:

What about a Clan Version? Keep the IS rules but with Clantech.. Reduce the quircks..Whatever..He can become the first Clan Hero Mech.
Style? Hot Wheel?

Start begging PGI for IIC versions dude! http://www.sarna.net...i/UrbanMech_IIC

"... did not need much reworking, as they simply upgraded the autocannon to a Type 9 Ultra Autocannon/10 and the Small Laser to a Series 1 Extended Range Small Laser."

Edited by Apnu, 08 April 2015 - 10:36 AM.

[rasak]

This thread is now about the one and only IIC mech: http://www.sarna.net...i/Hunchback_IIC



"...last-ditch effort"
"...die with glory"
"...not expected to survive their next battle"
"...mammoth guns"

Sounds like my kind of machine.

[Shredhead]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8a50648f8adc521 ?

[Kristov Kerensky]

stjobe, OmniPods are supposed to be able to put whatever weapon types wanted in them, limitations being space and tonnage, and that would give the Omni's the teeth they currently lack for the non-Trinity Omni's, and would make the Trinity that much more powerful, a decidedly two edged sword. I think it would be for the better overall, they can always quirk the Trinity down a bit if really needed, which I don't think would be required. I'm good with the Clan Omni's being OP compared to the IS Mechs, that's kind of the trade off for the restrictions on hardwired/set equipment on the Omni's isn't it?

As to IS customization, PGI doesn't use the Refit rules, it uses a hybrid build your own custom Mech set of rules.
TT allows for complete customization, it only requires time and money, and in TT it usually just came down to money, you had it and got whatever you wanted or you didn't have it and dealt with what you had until you could afford to build your own Mech. Rules, people keep quoting them in this regards while ignoring the fact that no one playing TT actually bothered with them outside of cost. TT games, time isn't real factor outside of what Tech you are using, 1 week between gaming sessions could be an hour of game time or years of game time, something else that keeps getting ignored.

Time was something we only kept track of for 1 reason...logistics. Jump time between stars, transit time from Jump point to planet in dropships, time on planet, all these add up to cbills/day for Merc units, and it's the hardest part of the entire TT experience. Most Merc Corps fail rather quickly, 1 bad drop and you are in the hole so deep you'll never get out.

And TT doesn't have hardpoints, you could replace an AC20 with an ERPPC if you so desired, have enough money, recruit the right techs, spend enough time, it'll work every single time. Again, something that keeps getting ignored, we ignored the rules in TT more often than not concerning customization. MW4 and MWO have hardpoints for reasons I've never actually understood. 'To prevent boating' 'to make each Mech unique', the arguments used to validate the hardpoint designs. First off, BTech is full of boating Mechs, so that rather makes the argument stupid right off the bat. Secondly, the unique Mechs aren't unique, not when everyone fills the hardpoints on the same variant with the same weapons because they work best, another stupid argument debunked right off the bat. Balance isn't helped by the hardpoint system, uniqueness of the chassis/variant isn't helped by it, and it doesn't prevent boating, so why the hell is it being used? To placate the LCD crowd who don't actually understand how complete customization actually promotes variety and can't be assed to figure out how to build their own monsters. TT had a simple system that works to this day, you have X tonnage/slots, certain MUST HAVE(cockpit/gyros/sensors/lifesupport) hardware requires Y tonnage/slots, do what you want with what's available, here's the cost in time and money. Again, TT, we ignored the time, paid the cbills and had our custom built Mech the next gaming session, after all, we played to have fun, not be restricted by rules that had 0 effect on the actual game play.

Hans Von Lohman, have you actually PLAYED MWO? Or MW4 for that matter? Top comp players drive the same Mechs with the same builds, the very thing you say that hardpoints are supposed to avoid happening. This occurs in MWO, has since day 1 of Closed Beta and also occurred in MW4, it was happening in IT'S closed beta too btw. See, this is exactly why I said the hardpoint system is stupid, it does NOTHING to prevent exactly what it's supposed to prevent, matter of fact, it enforces the very things it's supposed to prevent.

MW2-MW2:Mercs, in the Planetary leagues, you saw all kinds of Mechs and builds in combat, Ladder leagues actually had Classes, Energy, Ballistics, Missiles, Mixtures of these, and that's where you saw a total lack of different builds/Mechs, as the top performers per Class were exactly what everyone used. 1v1 combat, it's what works best, Planetary wasn't 1v1 however, it was teams and we usually had limited tonnage allowed for the attack/defense, so you mixed in different Mechs which meant using different builds based on the map being used. MW4 you saw the exact same Mechs and builds being used in Ladders and Planetary leagues regardless, they performed best because when you limit the options with hardpoints, the best builds possible ARE the best builds possible, you want to win, you use them. Planetary league players would simply make sure they had X tonnage total for attack or defense and take specific Mechs and builds based on total tonnage/team size per drop. Oh yeah man, hardpoints were SO awesome at promoting diversity and keeping boating down...just like eating lots of rock candy helps keep diabetes at bay!

Edited by Kristov Kerensky, 08 April 2015 - 11:47 AM.

[Tuefel Hunden]

I don't want an Urbie.

[Dirus Nigh]

Put a UAC10 on a kit fox, done.

[stjobe]

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 April 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

stjobe, OmniPods are supposed to be able to put whatever weapon types wanted in them

Omnipods are fixed, just like IS 'mechs. The difference is, they're field-swappable (which in general IS 'mech systems are not). So if you need a long-range loadout, you switch to long-range OmniPods on the same 'mech if you're a Clanner, and switch to a different 'mech with a long-range loadout if you're a Spheroid.

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 April 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

I'm good with the Clan Omni's being OP compared to the IS Mechs, that's kind of the trade off for the restrictions on hardwired/set equipment on the Omni's isn't it?

In a 12v12 each-player-controls-one-'mech PvP game, there's no room for OP. Not on Clan side, not on IS side.

I used to be in favour of 10v12 Clan/IS to keep some of the BT flavour, but I realized (with some help ) that it's just not possible to skew balance that much and not destroy it.

So no, Clans can't be OP. It's sad, because by lore they should be, but that's compensated by a number of factors that simply does not exist in MWO, like the Clan honour and bidding systems and R&R.

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 April 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

As to IS customization, PGI doesn't use the Refit rules, it uses a hybrid build your own custom Mech set of rules.

And what I'm saying is I think they should use the Refit rules instead of the Construction rules.

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 April 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

TT allows for complete customization, it only requires time and money

And, if you wanted to do anything like the customization we do in MWO, a fully functional and operational 'mech factory. Which I'm sure most MechWarriors didn't have access to.

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 April 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

Rules, people keep quoting them in this regards while ignoring the fact that no one playing TT actually bothered with them outside of cost.

No one? Just because you didn't doesn't mean I or the people I play with don't. In campaign play it makes for a much more interesting game.

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 April 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

Time was something we only kept track of for 1 reason...logistics. Jump time between stars, transit time from Jump point to planet in dropships, time on planet, all these add up to cbills/day for Merc units, and it's the hardest part of the entire TT experience. Most Merc Corps fail rather quickly, 1 bad drop and you are in the hole so deep you'll never get out.

Which also goes against the whole "I'll build my own 'mech and rebuild it completely between battles" mentality that pervades just about every MechWarrior game, including MWO.

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 April 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

And TT doesn't have hardpoints, you could replace an AC20 with an ERPPC if you so desired, have enough money, recruit the right techs, spend enough time, it'll work every single time.

You could, but unless you had a Refit kit for that specific 'mech and weapon combo (i.e. there existed an AC/20 and an ERPPC variant), you probably needed that 'mech factory I mentioned above. And it could still get quirked to only do 75% damage, or get a +1 to hit, or some other bad effect - because the chassis was never designed for an ERPPC, it was designed for an AC/20.

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 April 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

Again, something that keeps getting ignored, we ignored the rules in TT more often than not concerning customization.

And we followed them more often than not. Which is why I'm taking a bit of umbrage with you dismissing them so completely.

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 April 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

Again, TT, we ignored the time, paid the cbills and had our custom built Mech the next gaming session, after all, we played to have fun, not be restricted by rules that had 0 effect on the actual game play.

We might have had fun the wrong way, but we actually found following the Field Repair and Refit rules rather enjoyable in our longer campaigns.

In one-off battles, sure. Bring whatever tickles your fancy and is rule-legal. But in campaign play you better have the time, money, techs, and facilities if you wanted to do something more than replace armour and ammo.

[Kristov Kerensky]

stjobe, on 08 April 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Omnipods are fixed, just like IS 'mechs. The difference is, they're field-swappable (which in general IS 'mech systems are not). So if you need a long-range loadout, you switch to long-range OmniPods on the same 'mech if you're a Clanner, and switch to a different 'mech with a long-range loadout if you're a Spheroid.


In a 12v12 each-player-controls-one-'mech PvP game, there's no room for OP. Not on Clan side, not on IS side.

I used to be in favour of 10v12 Clan/IS to keep some of the BT flavour, but I realized (with some help ) that it's just not possible to skew balance that much and not destroy it.

So no, Clans can't be OP. It's sad, because by lore they should be, but that's compensated by a number of factors that simply does not exist in MWO, like the Clan honour and bidding systems and R&R.


And what I'm saying is I think they should use the Refit rules instead of the Construction rules.


And, if you wanted to do anything like the customization we do in MWO, a fully functional and operational 'mech factory. Which I'm sure most MechWarriors didn't have access to.


No one? Just because you didn't doesn't mean I or the people I play with don't. In campaign play it makes for a much more interesting game.


Which also goes against the whole "I'll build my own 'mech and rebuild it completely between battles" mentality that pervades just about every MechWarrior game, including MWO.


You could, but unless you had a Refit kit for that specific 'mech and weapon combo (i.e. there existed an AC/20 and an ERPPC variant), you probably needed that 'mech factory I mentioned above. And it could still get quirked to only do 75% damage, or get a +1 to hit, or some other bad effect - because the chassis was never designed for an ERPPC, it was designed for an AC/20.


And we followed them more often than not. Which is why I'm taking a bit of umbrage with you dismissing them so completely.


We might have had fun the wrong way, but we actually found following the Field Repair and Refit rules rather enjoyable in our longer campaigns.

In one-off battles, sure. Bring whatever tickles your fancy and is rule-legal. But in campaign play you better have the time, money, techs, and facilities if you wanted to do something more than replace armour and ammo.

Omnipods are only fixed in tonnage/slots, they are not fixed to weapon types, and that is exactly what I am talking about. PGI set Omnipods to specific weapon hardpoint types and that ruins the entire point of them.

This IS a PvP game, true enough, but there's this thing called asymmetrical balance, might have heard of that? That's kind of what is going on in MWO right now, Clans have better toys and are slightly OP compared to the IS, but it's not enough to be an easy button win. The quirks are making that assbackwards at the moment however, something PGI needs to seriously tone down and redo.

And wtf are you babbling about the Clans being balanced by anything in BTech, that's total bs and you know it. The Clans were so OP that NOTHING balanced them until after the Dark Ages bs. Seriously, trying to say that 10v12 was balanced in TT, that is SO preposterous it's not even funny.

As for the rest, we didn't use the time rules for customization of Mechs, it was a silly and pointless rule for the most part and unless you were in a Merc Corp, had no bearing on anything. We started as Mercs, we did our accounting, then we got 'recruited' to join Steiner and no longer had to deal with the day to day costs(as well as having lost most of our Merc Corp in the 'recruitment' setup that Steiner used on us, dead men need no pay). We didn't have customized Mechs until we were out of the military, and at that point, we had the cbills to go to places like Defiance Industries and have them build us what we wanted. Funny thing about Mech Factories in BTech, they like to make money, and paying a nice 'bonus' always gets them accepting your commission, who needs to Role Play when you can just slap a HUGE pile of cbills on a desk and people suddenly can't wait to serve you fast enough.

Again, the rules allowed for complete customization, cbills and time are all it took. I can't see a video game requiring us to spend the next 2 weeks waiting for a tech to replace that small laser with a heat sink though, so that we can't use that Mech until after the work is done and if we're lucky, NOTHING got broken in the process! I just don't see that as being a viable product on the market, not with people wanting to make enough off a few drops to purchase multiple Mechs AND upgrade them totally, sorry, nope, I do NOT see that as being even a possible consideration. Think you want that BTech simulator that's been mentioned so many times on these forums, it lets you do all that and then some. I enjoy myself, but that's a TT emulator, and we both know that that won't make any money, otherwise the people making that emulator would be rolling in the money...and they ain't.