359 replies to this topic

[TancredWard]

Their culture and battle ideaology did not lend itself well to conquering. Winning, yes, conquering and ruling, no. They made huge initial gains, and then because of their way of deciding who attacked what, with what forces their second and third waves were not as effective. The Inner Sphere troops also adjusted their tactics and improved their technology thanks to the Wolf Dragoons and a battle in which the Kuritans won Mechs and Elemental armor from the clans. Smoke Jaguar made a mistake by attacking the capital of the Combine, Luthien and they were decimated by the Kuritan forces and the Dragoons and Kell Hounds. Also, Victor Davion blunted the Jade Falcon advance at Twycross. Clan Wolf did the most damage by far, but through political maneuvering and such Khan Ulric Kerensky was elected ilKhan despite the fact he was a Warden and did not believe in the war, which may have played a part in his accepting ComStar's "Trial of Possesion" on Tukayyid in which the Clans faced the ComGuard's 50 regiments. They mainly lost because they refused to be commanded by Ulric and bid away their forces as was customary for their battles, and the ComGuards had more than enough supplies for a protracted, hit and run, guerilla style war, whereas the Clan Military Doctrine calls for lightning victories. Thus, the clans were soundly defeated on Tukayyid, save for Clan Wolf which fought to a draw/narrow victory but the battle for the planet was lost, thus creating a 15 year truce in which a good majority of the warriors of the clan invasion force would have been considered "Past their Prime".

TL;DR Clans had bad tactics and was politically divided, Inner sphere was adaptable and had more forces and manuevered them in such a way to negate the tech advantage held by the clans.

[Bloodweaver]

Tactics, logistics, and numbers. In that order.

Clan tactics were based around one-on-one dueling. Even when engaging in larger scale operations, the principles were the same. Inner Sphere tactics were based around using every tool, resource, and idea available to achieve victory. Artillery, air strikes, indirect fire, guerrilla warfare, attacking vulnerabilities, deception, et al. Clan combat is highly dependent on having a pre-determined knowledge of what your enemy is capable of, and counteracting it appropriately. There's very little strategy involved, relative to the Inner Sphere; in Clan society, "combat" strategy seems to primarily take place in the bidding stage.

Logistically, Clan armies had little raw material compared to the Inner Sphere. So they were only capable of fielding a smaller number of warriors, a smaller amount of equipment for them to use, and a smaller amount of resources (just a few examples: food, fuel, ammunition, clothing, replacements for damaged parts, water, medical supplies, technicians) with which to maintain both the warriors and the equipment. And, furthermore, because they were invading the Inner Sphere, their theater of operations was very, very far from home. Meaning it took that much more time, and resources, for any resupply to occur. The idea was probably to conquer a world, use it to resupply as necessary, and then move on to the next... But the aforementioned tactics disrupt this model immensely, since the Inner Sphere people would have had no qualms about using guerrilla warfare, carrying out war of attrition tactics, or even burning their own supplies just to prevent the Clans from making use of them - something that would have been especially inconceivable to Clansmen, what with their focus on avoiding waste.

Third, numbers. Speaks for itself, and is the most immediately obvious. Thousands upon thousands of worlds, with billions upon billions of people inhabiting them, makes for some pretty intimidating numbers. Although this is the most obvious reason, it actually wouldn't have made nearly as much of a difference if not for the first two elements. If the Inner Sphere had regressed to a Neolithic level of technology, for example, it wouldn't have mattered HOW huge their numerical advantage was.

And, finally. The dumbest, "WOLF CLAN IS BEST CLAN" canon-armor reason of all - they had a traitor leading them. Ulric Kerensky did every possible thing he could to make sure the Clans were defeated.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Ulric was a twit honestly. But, take into consideration, we wolves are the last of the Warden Clans. We are trying to save humanity, not dominate it.

[Slick762]

I'm in the process of reading the original novels, but haven't gotten to the introduction of the Clans yet. How big a part did Wolfs Dragoons play in the defense against the Clans? Did they just share intel, or did they teach others about Clan tactics and weaknesses?

[Evedro Solais]

The answer is simple logistics:

1) Their angle of approach hit only about 15% of the circumference of the Inner Sphere.
2) They primarily hit the FFR. By cornering them, they fought harder. By missing the others, they were able to fight smarter.
3) Attrition and Salvage evened the playing field.
4) They let slip their primary goal and ComStar said "Uh, no... I don't think so", bringing the ComGuard and LosTech into the picture, evening the playing field even more.

[Steffenximus]

It's a happy ending story. That's the only reason why.

[Damascas]

Slick762, on 01 July 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

I'm in the process of reading the original novels, but haven't gotten to the introduction of the Clans yet. How big a part did Wolfs Dragoons play in the defense against the Clans? Did they just share intel, or did they teach others about Clan tactics and weaknesses?

I am pretty sure they went so far as to directly engage clan forces.

The reason the Dragoons were so active in the fight with the clans is because by the time of the clan invasion almost all the original Dragoons were dead, the vast majority of the Dragoons were in fact spheroids themselves.

[Bloodweaver]

Rejarial Galatan, on 01 July 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Ulric was a twit honestly. But, take into consideration, we wolves are the last of the Warden Clans. We are trying to save humanity, not dominate it.

I wouldn't call him a twit at all... my understanding is that "twit" is more or less conflated with "stupid." Ulric was smart, conniving, deceptive, manipulative... but in no way stupid!

[TancredWard]

Slick762, on 01 July 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

I'm in the process of reading the original novels, but haven't gotten to the introduction of the Clans yet. How big a part did Wolfs Dragoons play in the defense against the Clans? Did they just share intel, or did they teach others about Clan tactics and weaknesses?

They brought the leaders of all the Successor States togther, training them in basic clan tactics and basically setting the foundations for an alliance of the major states (i.e. everyone but the Capellans). And then saved the Kuritans butts at Luthien, along with the Kell Hounds. So a little bit of everything really.

[Brunhin Graywind]

*Warning* this post contains spoilers for anyone who has not read the Blood of Kerensky series
From what I remember about the initial appearance of the clans (it has been a while since I read the Blood of Kerensky series), the main reason the clans lost at Tukayyid is because they underbid. It seems the clans are separated into two distinct groups, those that think that the purpose of the plans is to safeguard the successors of the Star League from outside dangers (the Wardens), and those who feel the clans are destined to recreate the Star League (the Crusaders). The Wolf clan was firmly in the safeguard category, and so when the Khan of the Wolf clan becomes the ilKhan he works to find a way to stop the invasion in the only way he could think of, either immediate victory or immediate defeat. I believe he somehow arranged for the clans to underbid at Tukayyid, but it can be taken both ways.

Edit: As for why they didn't conquer everything, they were pretty much always aimed at Terra. Also, the sheer size of the area that they were attacking into, means that they couldnt take everything... If you look at maps they did take hundreds of worlds

Edited by Brunhin Graywind, 01 July 2012 - 09:42 PM.

[TancredWard]

Brunhin Graywind, on 01 July 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

*Warning* this post contains spoilers for anyone who has not read the Blood of Kerensky series
From what I remember about the initial appearance of the clans (it has been a while since I read the Blood of Kerensky series), the main reason the clans lost at Tukayyid is because they underbid. It seems the clans are separated into two distinct groups, those that think that the purpose of the plans is to safeguard the successors of the Star League from outside dangers (the Wardens), and those who feel the clans are destined to recreate the Star League (the Crusaders). The Wolf clan was firmly in the safeguard category, and so when the Khan of the Wolf clan becomes the ilKhan he works to find a way to stop the invasion in the only way he could think of, either immediate victory or immediate defeat. I believe he somehow arranged for the clans to underbid at Tukayyid, but it can be taken both ways.

The commanders bid among themselves, Ulric's original bids would have been sufficient to win, but the Khans forced him to bid away 2 or 3 of his Wolf Clan Galaxies and then they all started cutting down their own forces for the right to be the first troops on the planet etc etc. and they used up their supplies at an enormous rate leaving them out of ammo after a week or two of fighting. So yes, Ulric had a hand in engineering their defeat, but they really did it to themselves.

[RogueSpear]

I do find all the 'stupid writers decided IS wins when our glorious clans were better' posts on this issue that I've seen over the years amusing. I submit a counterpoint:
What happens if the clans won?
Boredom. Absolute boredom. Suddenly we're stuck with a tiny population of warriors and elitists trying to rule the known galaxy, half of which didn't want to in the first place. But they wouldn't even have the resources to fight each other, because they would need to hold their new lands.
So the IS won, because it was conceivable, because ComStar is a giant MacGuffin, and because the alternative would have ended the game before we got to play with the cool stuff.

[Tarrin]

The Children fo Kerensky were, at the beginning technologicly superior and "idealy" bred with the best possiblt traits for the perfect warrior. But the a few things added up to thier downfall. Here is but a few things.

1: "Idealy" bred does not mean better. Case in point Phelan Kell, freeborn from the IS, rose from being bondsman to Kahn of the Wolves despite his "inferior" birth and training.

2: The 'bidding' process was created to minimize the amount of material loss during the birth of the clans due to the Harsh conditions in the pentagon worlds. Inter clan battles work with bidding because that forces them to be the best and they are used to it. The Innersphere for the most part is used to more modern "free-for-all", what ever it takes, warfare. Why send a Lance on a mission with a moderate chance of success when a Company would insure success.

3: Attrition. The Clans, while bringing a lot with them, simply were not prepared for a protracted campain. The Crusaders thought is would be cake walk, an in the opening months it was due to suprise. But the Innersphere learned quickly and started to causing more material loss for the clans. Ths Innersphere had more men, materials, supplies with less distance for reinforcment.

[Kobold]

The IS also had numbers on their side. Oh, you smashed a couple dozen AFFC RCTs? That's fine, we'll move some more forward from the Suns half, now that we don't need as many to guard the Combine border.

[Elkarlo]

The Clans did fight the Army's of the Innersphere and overrun them. Only on 3 or 4 places out of 100 or more they lost.

They stopped their Invasion because they were Honourfull. etc etc.
But the Ultimate Reason:
A Clan ER PPC is not Powerfull enough to defeat Bureaucracy !

(Smoke Jaguar lost in an Attrition Conflict and thats a Conflict of Organization.)


And of Course they spend all there Ammunition to Sandblast our Atlas Mech's..

Edited by Elkarlo, 01 July 2012 - 10:33 PM.

[Damascas]

RogueSpear, on 01 July 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

I do find all the 'stupid writers decided IS wins when our glorious clans were better' posts on this issue that I've seen over the years amusing. I submit a counterpoint:
What happens if the clans won?
Boredom. Absolute boredom. Suddenly we're stuck with a tiny population of warriors and elitists trying to rule the known galaxy, half of which didn't want to in the first place. But they wouldn't even have the resources to fight each other, because they would need to hold their new lands.
So the IS won, because it was conceivable, because ComStar is a giant MacGuffin, and because the alternative would have ended the game before we got to play with the cool stuff.

Had then clans won they would have taken Terra and started issuing orders to everyone as the new Star League only to find that know one is listening to them, fresh troops are coming down on them from all sides as they could barely garrison the invasion corridor, and now they need to hold Terra to the last man at the cost of everything else. So a clan win, taking Terra, would end as an even bigger lose plus Comstar looking stupid.

[geck0 icaza]

Stackpole, nuf said. But Battletechs gets to keep on going so it can't be all bad.

[Ubertron X]

There are two major reasons why the clans did not dominate the inner sphere.

Though there are a lot better than the IS when it comes down to tactical fighting due to their tech and prowess they were never able to win this war from on a strategic or political point of view.

Anastasius Focht showed them how strategics own tactics on Tukayyid and the house leader showed them how politics beat tactics in their counterattack.

I will back this up with a little historic example to underline my points (even if the example might not be 100% on spot, but you'll get the idea).

When Napoleon marched into Russia, the Russian generals knew that they could not outfight him, but given the size of their country they knew that they could outlast him, which eventually they did. Strategic victory,

And despite Napoleon haven beat almost every major power repeatedly in the end they eventually all teamed up on the pesky little upstart messing with their precious kingdoms and finally their combined might crushed him. Political victory.

[Bombast]

The Clan's had superior warriors. But they had miserable soldiers. They spent the invasion slinging it out one on one, face to face, while the Inner Sphere bled them dry through actual warfare. By the time they lost their bid against Comstar, they were battered and bruised, and still had two thirds of the Inner Sphere to burn through (Terra be damned, they still had Half of Kurita and Steiner, Marik, Laio, and Davion to burn through).

Then, after a breather, the Inner Shpere went on the offensive with superior tech and every veteran they could get their hands on. And they slaughtered a whole Clan with little effort. And then fought the Clan's on their own terms, and still won.

And, of course, there is the fact that MW3 pointed out - Nurture over Nature. The Clans were bred for war - The Inner Sphere had been living it for centuries.

Clanners will be quick to point out that decades after the initial wave, the Clan's were biting at the bit to get back to the Invasion, ready to rock Comstar's world. But in reality, the Clan's could have never have done it. They bickered with each other, and could only ever make gains against a fractured Inner Sphere. The moment the Clan made a serious move, the Inner Sphere would rise as one and bash their way to victory.

There's also another argument - The Clan's lost the very minute they stepped onto Inner Sphere soil, because they BECAME the Inner Sphere. They went from honorable factions fighting each other for practice and strength, to grubby handed, politically fractured group's bent not on an ideal society, but more on one upping each other and fighting petty wars for petty reasons. Just like the Inner Sphere had been doing since forever.

Even if they conquered the IS, they had lost - They would just replace 5 (6, kind of) factions with over a dozen factions that had no idea what they were doing anymore.

Edited by Bombast, 01 July 2012 - 10:57 PM.

[Niberung]

The TS's question was fully addressed in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy. But the tl;dr version is as follows:

HUGE SPOILER ALERT

When ComStar learned that the Clans' final goal was the conquest of Terra itself (which was the capital world for ComStar), ComStar decided to use the bidding practice of Clans to arrange a proxy battle for Terra on tha planet of Tukayyid. If Clans won, they would take Terra, if they lost, they would cease all hostilities against the Inner Sphere for the next 15 years.
First of all, the Clans' practice of "bidding", i.e. minimizing the resources used for each battle, played against them. Even though upon the battle of Tukayyid ilKhan Ulric Kerensky and ComStar's Precentor Martial Anastasis Focht agreed on somewhat simmilar strengths of their respective forces, the bidding for battle amongst the Clans themselves put the Clans at a severe disadvantage.
Secondly, while the ComStar's forces had a single commander - the Precentor Martial himself, the Clans did not have unified command, so each clan was achieveing its own goals with little regard of what was happening on other fronts.

There were other reasons, of course, for example, so frequently cited flaws within the military doctrine of the clans, but I covered the two that directly spelled the doom of the Clans' invasion of the Inner Sphere.

Edited by Niberung, 01 July 2012 - 10:55 PM.